The End Times: The Quran vs The Hadith

[dailogue is the best]

Im already there and enjoying the Moroccan sweets

I dont think you liked the sweets because I forgot to add suger to them

Actually DIB, the opening words of the chapter in the bible make it clear that it was a vision. I am posting a link here and you can read the words yourself. And remember, that the audience for these words in the Quran is also the Christians and Jews.

"The hand of the Lord came upon me, and he brought me out by the spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones...." Chapter 37, book of Ezekial, Old Testament.

oremus Bible Browser : Ezekiel 37

I dont know why do you refer to the bible while we are talking about Quranic stories?!! Moreover, I know that the Torah, the Bible and the Quran have a lot of common as they are from one source. Yet, the Quran makes it clear that both the Torah and the Bible have unfortunately been corrupted. According to the Quran, the story of Ezra's death for a hundred years, and his ressurection is a fact, and not a vision. Though, I may agree that this story has other significance and symbolism. Yet, it remains clear from the Quranic verses that it was a reality, and not a vision.

You have to add nine years for every 300 years when you convert solar years to lunar years. But the important question is what does the 300 years signify? Does it mean that those youths died for 300 years? Not necessarily. I think the scholar is right in saying there is more to these words.

Allah knows best.

MashAllah, I forget that I m addressing a science student.. may God bless you.

C0de, the Quran makes it clear that those youths have really slept for a number of hunderd of years.

[18:18] You would think that they were awake, when they were in fact asleep. We turned them to the right side and the left side, while their dog stretched his arms in their midst. Had you looked at them, you would have fled from them, stricken with terror.
18:19] When we resurrected them, they asked each other, "How long have you been here?" "We have been here one day or part of the day," they answered. "Your Lord knows best how long we stayed here, so let us send one of us with this money to the city. Let him fetch the cleanest food, and buy some for us. Let him keep a low profile, and attract no attention.
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[18:21] We caused them to be discovered, to let everyone know that GOD's promise is true, and to remove all doubt concerning the end of the world. The people then disputed among themselves regarding them. Some said, "Let us build a building around them." Their Lord is the best knower about them. Those who prevailed said, "We will build a place of worship around them."

Also, brother, I want to point out to something very important, which is that the number of years those youths stayed sleeping in the cave isnt definite. Look at what God says:

"[18:25] They stayed in their cave three hundred years, increased by nine.
[18:26] Say, "GOD is the best knower of how long they stayed there." He knows all secrets in the heavens and the earth. By His grace you can see; by His grace you can hear. There is none beside Him as Lord and Master, and He never permits any partners to share in His kingship.

 

[c0de]

According to the Quran, the story of Ezra's death for a hundred years, and his ressurection is a fact, and not a vision. Though, I may agree that this story has other significance and symbolism. Yet, it remains clear from the Quranic verses that it was a reality, and not a vision.

To me, it really doesnt matter if it happened in actual fact, or it happened in a vision. I believe Allah can make both possible. And as they say: The devil is in the details. As long as we agree there are deeper significances to the words, we really have no disagreement.

MashAllah, I forget that I m addressing a science student.. may God bless you.

Me? A science student? LoL... no way.
Ive only ever taken a few conceptual, historic, philosophic
and introductory courses related to Science. But that doesnt
make me a science student, I would actually have to study
mathematics for that!!

C0de, the Quran makes it clear that those youths have really slept for a number of hunderd of years.

Not really DIB. The verses you quoted do not mention those youths as being asleep for hundreds of years. As I said, the actual verse which mentions the time, is not connected to those youths. That verse is located after their story is already finished.

18:19] When we resurrected them, they asked each other, "How long have you been here?" "We have been here one day or part of the day," they answered. "Your Lord knows best how long we stayed here, so let us send one of us with this money to the city. Let him fetch the cleanest food, and buy some for us. Let him keep a low profile, and attract no attention.

That word can also be translated as "roused", as in, woke them up. As in from a state of state of inertia, like from being isolated from society.

I dont think you liked the sweets because I forgot to add suger to them

Hmmm.... forgot?

I think you left it out on purpose DIB

 

[dailogue is the best]

To me, it really doesnt matter if it happened in actual fact, or it happened in a vision. I believe Allah can make both possible. And as they say: The devil is in the details. As long as we agree there are deeper significances to the words, we really have no disagreement.

Nice. I agree, too.

Me? A science student? LoL... no way.
Ive only ever taken a few conceptual, historic, philosophic
and introductory courses related to Science. But that doesnt
make me a science student, I would actually have to study
mathematics for that!!

Maths! Ohhhhhhhhhhhh..
Anyway, you are a science student in comparaison to me. Look at me how much I am frightened of Maths in comparaison to you.

Not really DIB. The verses you quoted do not mention those youths as being asleep for hundreds of years. As I said, the actual verse which mentions the time, is not connected to those youths. That verse is located after their story is already finished.

Well, c0de, let's keep dicussing this.

[18:11] We then sealed their ears in the cave for a predetermined number of years.

Sealing their eyes in the cave has a meaning that they no longer can hear. And this is the status of a sleeper or a dead. I know that you are going to interpret it metaphorically, saying: " Not necessarily. It may mean that they have lost complete contact with the outside world"

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[18:18] You would think that they were awake, when they were in fact asleep. We turned them to the right side and the left side, while their dog stretched his arms in their midst. Had you looked at them, you would have fled from them, stricken with terror.

How can you interpret God's saying "you would think that they were awake, when they were in fact asleep" if those youths werent really sleeping?!!

Also, how can you interpret God's saying "we turned them to the right side and the left side" if those youths werent really sleeping?!
(by the way, this verse bears a scientific miracle as it is discoverred that a person in comma must be turned from now and then, and not be let on one side for a long time for it may lead to the dissolvation of flesh)

Moreover, how can you interpret God's saying "you would have fled from them, stricken with terror" if those youths werent really sleeping?

That word can also be translated as "roused", as in, woke them up. As in from a state of state of inertia, like from being isolated from society.

Well, brother, I look up what the word " baath" means in Arabic, and I found it means the following:
1- sending as God says in the Quran " wa baathna min baadihim Mosa" "We sent after them Moses"
2- irritation as the Arab say in their language " baathto lbaair fanbaath"
" I irritaed the sheep and they become irritated"
3- Ressurection . God says in the Quran: "Yawma yabaathohom Allaho jamiaan" "The Day when God resurrects them all, then He informs them of what they had done. God has recorded it, while they have forgotten it. God witnesses all things. (58:16)

Which meaning of the three you gave to the word, c0de?

Hmmm.... forgot?

I think you left it out on purpose DIB

Yeah, especially when I knew that you were going to be the first to taste them

 

[c0de]

Sealing their eyes in the cave has a meaning that they no longer can hear. And this is the status of a sleeper or a dead. I know that you are going to interpret it metaphorically, saying: " Not necessarily. It may mean that they have lost complete contact with the outside world"

How can you interpret God's saying "you would think that they were awake, when they were in fact asleep" if those youths werent really sleeping?!!

Also, how can you interpret God's saying "we turned them to the right side and the left side" if those youths werent really sleeping?!
(by the way, this verse bears a scientific miracle as it is discoverred that a person in comma must be turned from now and then, and not be let on one side for a long time for it may lead to the dissolvation of flesh)

Moreover, how can you interpret God's saying "you would have fled from them, stricken with terror" if those youths werent really sleeping?

Lets take all of these 2 verse together:
Notice the parts highlighted in the GREEN


018.017
YUSUFALI: Thou wouldst have seen the sun, when it rose,
declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set,turning away from
them to the left, while they lay in the open space in the midst of the Cave.
Such are among the Signs of Allah: He whom Allah, guides is rightly guided; but he
whom Allah leaves to stray,- for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him
to the Right Way.


018.018
YUSUFALI: Thou wouldst have deemed them awake, whilst they were asleep, and We turned them on their right and on their left sides: their dog stretching forth his two fore-legs on the threshold: if thou hadst come up on to them, thou wouldst have certainly turned back from them in flight, and wouldst certainly have been filled with terror of them.



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Remember DIB, when you sleep out in the wild, you sleep with the fire lit
to keep away the wild animals. So it does give the impression that people
around the fire are awake. Consider the shadows people moving from side to
side and the dog, and the fact that there is a lit fire in the cave.

Now you can say that these youths were asleep constantly
for hundreds of years. But you can also say that they only slept when
the sun was down. And the reason why people would have fled because
of terror is during nightfall, if you were traveling and suddenly came upon a
company of people in the middle of a cave out in the middle of nowhere,
it would scare you. You would be like "what the hell are these people doing
out here in the middle of a cave in the middle of nowhere at night?!!!"


Allah knows best.


Also, when you say that this verse supports the case that they
were asleep constantly for hundreds of years, well:

[18:11] We then sealed their ears in the cave for a predetermined number of years.


The statement "sealed their ears" is a metaphorical statement. So you have
to interpret it metaphorically. Now you take its meaning as them being asleep.
I say that they were in a state of inertia. I am assuming that when you are cut
off from all contact with the regular world, you kind of drift away into your own
mental world... And the conception of time, it does become sketchy.

Now in the next verse, it is said that these youths did not know how long they
spent in the cave, but they thought it was a "day or a part of a day"... now I
do not know what really happened, because I wasn't there. Who knows, maybe
they were asleep for hundreds of years... in any case, that does not necessarily
cancel out the other meaning relating to the introduction of the trinity.

Well, brother, I look up what the word " baath" means in Arabic, and I found it means the following:


1- sending as God says in the Quran " wa baathna min baadihim Mosa" "We sent after them Moses"

2- irritation as the Arab say in their language " baathto lbaair fanbaath"
" I irritaed the sheep and they become irritated"

3- Ressurection . God says in the Quran: "Yawma yabaathohom Allaho jamiaan" "The Day when God resurrects them all, then He informs them of what they had done. God has recorded it, while they have forgotten it. God witnesses all things. (58:16)

The definition in bold.

Yeah, especially when I knew that you were going to be the first to taste them

Well that's too bad.... because I brought my own sugar.

Nice try though

 

[dailogue is the best]

Remember DIB, when you sleep out in the wild, you sleep with the fire lit
to keep away the wild animals. So it does give the impression that people
around the fire are awake. Consider the shadows people moving from side to
side and the dog, and the fact that there is a lit fire in the cave.

Now you can say that these youths were asleep constantly
for hundreds of years. But you can also say that they only slept when
the sun was down. And the reason why people would have fled because
of terror is during nightfall, if you were traveling and suddenly came upon a
company of people in the middle of a cave out in the middle of nowhere,
it would scare you. You would be like "what the hell are these people doing
out here in the middle of a cave in the middle of nowhere at night?!!!"


Allah knows best.

Well, brother, you are actually making a big effort to prove the metaphorical meaning, and again you may face another obstacle that stands in the face of that metaphorical meaning as the verse saying: " a day or a part of day"

As for me, I want ba astonished when getting near a fire in the middle of a cave as I am sure that there are some people around who lit the fire.

Also, when you say that this verse supports the case that they
were asleep constantly for hundreds of years, well:

[18:11] We then sealed their ears in the cave for a predetermined number of years.


The statement "sealed their ears" is a metaphorical statement. So you have
to interpret it metaphorically. Now you take its meaning as them being asleep.
I say that they were in a state of inertia. I am assuming that when you are cut
off from all contact with the regular world, you kind of drift away into your own
mental world... And the conception of time, it does become sketchy.

Now in the next verse, it is said that these youths did not know how long they
spent in the cave, but they thought it was a "day or a part of a day"... now I
do not know what really happened, because I wasn't there. Who knows, maybe
they were asleep for hundreds of years... in any case, that does not necessarily cancel out the other meaning relating to the introduction of the trinity.

That s true, the other meaning related to the introduction of the trinity is not necessarily canceled even if the youths did really sleep in the cave for hundred of years.

Well that's too bad.... because I brought my own sugar.

Nice try though

It isnt too bad as you thought. Bringing your own sugar with you to a party simply means that someone else played the trick on you

 

[c0de]

Well, brother, you are actually making a big effort to prove the metaphorical meaning, and again you may face another obstacle that stands in the face of that metaphorical meaning as the verse saying: " a day or a part of day"

I didnt really make any effort. All I did was read this scholar's views.
He did all the hard work, I just agree with him because the correlation
with the date of the First Council of Nicaea.

Besides, the scholars main point is unaffected by this entire discussion anyway,
which actually relates to the Gog and Magog, and the identity thereof.

Bringing your own sugar with you to a party simply means that someone else played the trick on you

What makes you think I brought the sugar for the party?
Maybe I just like carrying sugar around with me all the time.
Ive got some sugar on me right now... you want some?
Hold out your hand.... there... see?

 

[dailogue is the best]

I didnt really make any effort. All I did was read this scholar's views.
He did all the hard work, I just agree with him because the correlation
with the date of the First Council of Nicaea.

Besides, the scholars main point is unaffected by this entire discussion anyway,
which actually relates to the Gog and Magog, and the identity thereof.

That's clear....

What makes you think I brought the sugar for the party?
Maybe I just like carrying sugar around with me all the time.
Ive got some sugar on me right now... you want some?
Hold out your hand.... there... see?