Hi Ahanu —
Okay. How would you convince a fellow Christian using the Bible?
I would suggest she or he try and 'put on the mind of Christ', the mind of its author and inspiration, and, an impossible as it might be, but nevertheless useful as an exercise, just for a moment, 'put off' their human mind?
Christ said,"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Luke 23:34.
In Matthew: "Go then and learn what this meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. For I am not come to call the just, but sinners." Matthew 9:13.
And St Paul, who seemed to have got the point: "What will you? shall I come to you with a rod; or in charity, and in the spirit of meekness?" 1 Corinthians 4:21.
It seems to me man is free to reject the love of God if he so chooses, but that refusal is an act of human willing, not a sign of the Divine Will, rather it is evident that the will of God is that not one soul be lost.
I think in this respect Wil is right in quoting Elbert Hubbard: "we are punished by our sins, not for them."
That is not to say that the punishment is purely an imaginary state, something in the mind with no objective reality. Quite the reverse. It's a statement of what is, objectively, and in reality, the case. Separation from the Source of Infinite Love, and Infinite Being, is a very real possibility; if not, then the whole enterprise is a complete nonsense in the worst possible taste.
For example, assume I'm a Baptist Christian. I quote the following verse: "And these (goats) will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous (sheep) into eternal life" (Matthew 25.46).
I would remind you that this is a Parable which opens: "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be like to ten virgins, who taking their lamps went out to meet the bridegroom and the bride. And five of them were foolish, and five wise." Matthew 25:1-2.
Does that mean that in His prophecy Our Lord is stating absolutely that half the human race will be told "Amen I say to you, I know you not." (v12)?
If that is the case, if half the totality of humanity is pre-destined to perdition, then nothing you nor I nor anyone else does in this life will alter that a jot.
Then God does not love His creature.
In John Our Lord says: "Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." John 20"21-23.
Now if that be so, then I would be bloody careful about 'whose sin I shall retain', because if God thought that way, then He wouldn't have sent His Son into the world in the first place.
And I would be very bloody careful about on whom I pass judgement, for a number of reasons, not the least: "Judge not, that you may not be judged" Matthew 7:1.
I would remind myself that:"You judge according to the flesh: I judge not any man" John 8:15, and ...
"And if any man hear my words, and keep them not, I do not judge him: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." John 12:47.
So I read that Christ came to save the world from the peril of perdition, not to condemn, but to warn.
We however seem hell-bent (if you'll excuse the pun) on consigning souls to the pit.
And where is the Love and Peace of Chist, that "surpasseth all understanding" (cf
Philippians 4:7 and Ephesians 3:19), in that? Seems to me that such a heart is full of spite, not love, and loves the judgement, not justice.
As an annihilationist ...
I know that's a line I take, but I'm not dogmatic about it.
... you believe that, because the sinner's soul ceases to exist, the sinner's state of non-existence for eternity is an act of punishment.
No, it's a consequence, it's not a punishment, it's an inevitability ... it is the 'justice', if you like, of natural law.
What I am saying is, to separate oneself from the source of life, the source of being, the source of existence, is to cut oneself off from the source. Like cutting oneself off from the source of oxygen. You're not punished by the elements for not breathing, but you will die if you keep it up.
So, philosophically at least, to cut oneself off means to cease to live, to be, to exist. I don't see how a soul in hell can be an experiential mode of non-existence.
And I suggest God wants people to love Him because they love the idea of Him, not because they're terrified of the idea of what might happen if they don't love Him?
What caused this state of non-existence for the sinner? If I'm reading your words correctly, it is Christ himself;
No, it's the rejection of Christ, not Christ's rejection of the sinner.
"Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement."
Yes:
"Therefore judge not before the time; until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall every man have praise from God." 1 Corinthians 4:5.
Have you ever embarrassed yourself? I mean really, deeply? I'm not saying you have, I don't think I have (unless it's buried somewhere in my own 'Pandora's Box' subconscious).
But supposing it's like that? Supposing the heat and flame and whatever is that crimson flush of blood to the face? Suppose that pit is just me wishing the ground might open, right here, right now, and swallow me up? Supposing its not demons with pitchforks, but with placards saying 'Thomas crapped his pants at school' or 'Ahanu (fill in the blank)' ... I think you get my point.
You don't think it's pain enough? Then you ain't been embarrassed yet. Not properly.
It's that kind of fire. It's that kind of pain. It's that kind of (self)punishment. Maybe? Who knows? But that ... for eternity? God have mercy on my soul!
And He ... He is standing there saying "I forgive you" and "Come to me" and every nice thing in the book and, well, that only makes it worse, doesn't it?
It does ... if you won't let go.
The problem with your view is this: eternal punishment can't be defined as an eternal state of non-existence, for one would have to be conscious to actually experience the punishment of Christ.
The first thing to mention is the Eternal is not a measure of temporal duration.
Yes ... which is why I'm suggesting 'the punishment of Christ' is misunderstood.
Christ healed throughout His ministry, but He didn't punish anyone. He got very apocalyptic in His language about the inevitable if one didn't change one's ways, but nowhere does He say "I'm coming back and I'm gonna kick some butt" ... in fact in the opening of this chapter in Matthew we've discussed, it says He came back, and the unwise virgins missed the boat.
That the sinner was sent away not for what they did to Him, but for what they did, or rather did not do, to their neighbour-in-Him. Because that bit of Him-in-them (the sinner) would have been crying out to share the food, the cloak, the comfort, the shelter ...
An author named Gomes says: "The mere fact that the wicked are said to experience punishment proves two inescapable facts by the nature of the case: the existence of the one punished, and the conscious experience of the punishment. If either of these two are lacking, then punishment is not occurring."
How long is eternity? And the question is flawed, because eternity cannot be measured in those terms. The eternal is not infinite duration — it may well be in respect to the finite — but not, we speculate, in and of itself.
The second is that the guttering soul will be conscious of its passage from existence to non-existence, and however brief that moment might be, it will be eternally, in the eternal ...
Annihilation is a one-time event, so how can the extinction of consciousness be read in Matthew 25.46, which asserts eternal punishment?
Because there is no time in the eternal, so no 'one-time events'.
Why should a Christian believe the cessation of consciousness qualifies as eternal punishment?
Why indeed? Because it's true? The problem is, most people don't think in abstract terms. In fact many might say, "OK. If after death, nothing, then what the hey, I won't know about it, so I'm going for broke right now."
God bless
Thomas