Baha'i/Ananda Marga

[barefootgal9]

bruce

I believe Vaj is trying to sort this stuff out, and some of the, ahem, "information," he is running into on the internet is causing it's intended confusion.

Vaj is not alone in running into this stuff, and we are just going to have to keep on answering as patiently and as clearly as we can.

blessings & peace,

bfg

 

[BruceDLimber]

The Baha'i scriptures also contain this:

They [the Divine Messengers] are all the manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last," the "Seen" and "Hidden" - all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences.

(The Book of Certitude, page 179)

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

I don't think this is an issue that Baha'is can claim supremacy over - having altered the interpretation of various other texts held to be "God-sent Divine Revelation" by other religions.

You will forgive me, I trust, if I find this statement disingenuous.

Baha'is haven't "altered" anything: we simply have our interpretation and understanding of various scriptures, just as does everyone else!

The simple fact that our view differs from someone else's is hardly in itself objectionable, the more so given that it may in fact be our interpretation which is the correct one. . . .

We encouirage others to investigate and draw their own conclusions! I hope we will be allowed to have the same standard applied to us!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


thank you for the replies.

actually, though i've seen several of the polemical sites against the Baha'i faith, i've little interest in them besides their "facts" as it were.

there are as many conspiricies as there are theoriests of said things... i reserve my opinion until such time as it is proven one way or the other in such things.

it's not all that surprising to see the Baha'i echo the patriciarchial forms that it inherited from Islam and Christianity, so that's not a big deal to me.

perhaps you are right... perhaps this is a test to see if one is a true Baha'i or not. i suspect that i'd fail this test quite thoroughly

my question about the NSA was more related to the methods that the Baha'i utilize for their election process. perhaps, my question isn't very clear... would the same electoral process be used in the Baha'i vision of a world government or would a different electoral process be used?

 

[Vajradhara]

I find it telling that you completely ignored everything I said and all the points I made about the nature of Baha'i administration in contrast to conventional politics, to concentrate on what Baha'is regard as two relatively minor details. . . . Perhaps there's no refutation? The facts about its success stand and are there for all to examine.

Peace,

Bruce

Namaste Bruce,

i'm not sure what you're going on about here... i've not participated much in this particular thread... and, though you consider it a trivial detail, i do not consider the exclusion of an entire gender from the body politic to be trivial. eh... perhaps it's simply a difference in perspectives.

 

[barefootgal9]

vaj

it's not all that surprising to see the Baha'i echo the patriciarchial forms that it inherited from Islam and Christianity, so that's not a big deal to me.

It's just that the UHJ, while being the "Supreme" institution on matters of Baha'i law is the ONLY place in the Faith where you will find a men-only situation. Every other institution of the Faith, including the however many hundreds of National Spiritual Assemblies, Local Spiritual Assemblies, Teaching Committees, Boards of Counselllors is open to women and men both, and, as I mentioned, seem to be dominated by the women. In practice, the Faith is neither Patriarchal nor Matriarchal, but seeks a balance.

perhaps you are right... perhaps this is a test to see if one is a true Baha'i or not. i suspect that i'd fail this test quite thoroughly

Actually, Vaj, I think you do a good job of explaining and NOT quibbling !

I think you are of great service to humanity and the principles we seek to promote, just having you as an informed and friendly face out there in the world!

my question about the NSA was more related to the methods that the Baha'i utilize for their election process. perhaps, my question isn't very clear... would the same electoral process be used in the Baha'i vision of a world government or would a different electoral process be used?

I don't know. My understanding is that the generality of mankind chooses, and will continue to choose, its own systems. In cases of sovereign states where Baha'is are the majority of citizens, the state would likely choose to adopt many of the features of the Baha'i model.

I think the important points are such principles as representation, free election, freedom of conscience, protection of rights, etc. which Baha'u'llah indicates are prerequisite to establishing peace and stability. I think the precise forms people may adopt to establish these principles in their governments is open.

 

[barefootgal9]

"the body politic" ???!!!

i do not consider the exclusion of an entire gender from the body politic to be trivial. eh... perhaps it's simply a difference in perspectives.

Wouldn't that term mean the entire Baha'i community?!? Then I guess I'm not a Baha'i?

ONE institution consisting of NINE persons in a community of 5-8 million members being gender specific can hardly be termed "the body politic!"

Come on Vaj, give us a BIG obstacle -- like refusing to retaliate when attacked for one's beliefs -- accepting to be tortured and killed for refusing to recant -- or even learning how to refrain from gossip and backbiting?

;-)

Vaj, I see by your posts here, and on other boards how graciously you allow for difference of opinion. Can you grant a Manifestation of God ONE little corner where He can disagree with you?

;-)

blessings & peace

 

[9Harmony]

Baha'i elections

my question about the NSA was more related to the methods that the Baha'i utilize for their election process. perhaps, my question isn't very clear... would the same electoral process be used in the Baha'i vision of a world government or would a different electoral process be used?

Baha'i elections are very unique.

In each community where there are 9 adult Baha'i's a Local Spiritual Assembly will be formed. Each adult in the community will gather together and in a reverent and prayerful atmosphere will vote for the 9 people they feel will serve their community with selfless devotion. There is no campaigning, no telling others, 'vote for me'. The nine members who receive the most votes will serve on the local assembly for the following year.

Each year at unit conventions, all adult Baha'i's will utilize the same process to elect one delegate to go to the National Convention. These delegates at the National Convention will utilize the same process to elect the National Spiritual Assembly in each country.

The National Spiritual Assemblies will elect the Universal House of Justice through this same prayerful process. (I believe this only occurs every 5 years.)

I'm sure others will be able to give more detailed responses.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

 

[Vajradhara]

Namatse barefootgal,

thank you for the post.

my intention is to understand, not belittle or besmirch another spiritual tradition and i hope that my posts are indicative of such an intention.

It's just that the UHJ, while being the "Supreme" institution on matters of Baha'i law is the ONLY place in the Faith where you will find a men-only situation. Every other institution of the Faith, including the however many hundreds of National Spiritual Assemblies, Local Spiritual Assemblies, Teaching Committees, Boards of Counselllors is open to women and men both, and, as I mentioned, seem to be dominated by the women. In practice, the Faith is neither Patriarchal nor Matriarchal, but seeks a balance.

this is what i just don't grasp, besides being specifically prohibited from holding a position in the UHJ, is there any *reason* for such an exclusion for women? these types of things are explicit in the other semetic traditions and thus it doesn't surprise me to find them implicit in the Baha'i tradition, though i could be mistaken on this one.

from what i understand, the UHJ has the final arbiting authority in a matter of dispute amongst Baha'i, is that correct? if so, does it at all strike you as vaguely mysoginistic that a woman can't be trusted to make informed decisions for *all* Baha'i but she can make decisions for her group (is the term Local Spirital Assembly?)?

Actually, Vaj, I think you do a good job of explaining and NOT quibbling !

I think you are of great service to humanity and the principles we seek to promote, just having you as an informed and friendly face out there in the world!

thank you for the kind words i try to understand as much as my limited intellect can and then try to present said limited understanding when confronted with understanding that is more limited than my own. as for doing a service to humanity... well... that, i suppose, remains to be seen

I don't know. My understanding is that the generality of mankind chooses, and will continue to choose, its own systems. In cases of sovereign states where Baha'is are the majority of citizens, the state would likely choose to adopt many of the features of the Baha'i model.

I think the important points are such principles as representation, free election, freedom of conscience, protection of rights, etc. which Baha'u'llah indicates are prerequisite to establishing peace and stability. I think the precise forms people may adopt to establish these principles in their governments is open.

ah... thank you for your perspective on this issue

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste barefootgal,

thank you for the post.

Wouldn't that term mean the entire Baha'i community?!? Then I guess I'm not a Baha'i?

well... perhaps it could mean that.. though i was trying to limit it to the elected members of the UHJ as this is the ultimate arbiting authority for the Baha'i.

ONE institution consisting of NINE persons in a community of 5-8 million members being gender specific can hardly be termed "the body politic!"

ah.. but i disagree i cannot say what these 9 men do on a day to day basis... if you could fill us in that would greatly facilitate the conversation i suspect... however, it seems that since there is no "electioneering" i.e. trying to get votes, representing your position and so forth, how does one know whom to vote for and what they represent?

whilst i agree with the principle that 9 people do not a "body politic" make, if the group that is empowered to make binding decisions is not open to all members, it can be viewed in a very exclusive fasion.. perhaps this is what you (or another poster) were alluding to previously? in any event... this group, perhaps "executive body" would have been better? is the one from which women are excluded.

i know that i seem to be going on and on about it.. but i really have no tolerance (pun intended) for people that discriminate based on gender, race, creed, sexual orientation or physical impediment. i'm not saying that the Bahai' faith does this, however, this is the impression that i currently have based on my admittedly scarce knowledge of your tradition, thus, my repetitive queries.

i do appreciate the patience that has been shown whilst engaging in my sometimes pointless conversation.

Come on Vaj, give us a BIG obstacle -- like refusing to retaliate when attacked for one's beliefs -- accepting to be tortured and killed for refusing to recant -- or even learning how to refrain from gossip and backbiting?

oh.. i've got some big ones that, again based on my scant knowledge, would seem to be rather tricky for the Baha'i i'm interested in exploring this topic a bit further though, so i'll refrain for now from asking anything else.

Vaj, I see by your posts here, and on other boards how graciously you allow for difference of opinion. Can you grant a Manifestation of God ONE little corner where He can disagree with you?

well.. as long as it is a small corner and not too well decorated... i suppose that a Manifestation of God can disagree with me... though honestly, why they would want to is beyond me

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Harmony,

thank you for the response.

Baha'i elections are very unique.

In each community where there are 9 adult Baha'i's a Local Spiritual Assembly will be formed. Each adult in the community will gather together and in a reverent and prayerful atmosphere will vote for the 9 people they feel will serve their community with selfless devotion. There is no campaigning, no telling others, 'vote for me'. The nine members who receive the most votes will serve on the local assembly for the following year.

not to nitpick... so.. if there are 9 an assembly is formed for the local area and then these 9 are elected to 9 positions in the local area assembly? however, they cannot tell each other whom to vote for or make critical remarks of another, is that correct?

i realize that the tradition has no clergy.. so... in this group of 9 adults... who leads the "flock" so to speak?

Each year at unit conventions, all adult Baha'i's will utilize the same process to elect one delegate to go to the National Convention. These delegates at the National Convention will utilize the same process to elect the National Spiritual Assembly in each country.

is the unit convention something that is above the local assembly but below the national convention? do the delegates that go to the national assembly of one nation elect members for another nation?

The National Spiritual Assemblies will elect the Universal House of Justice through this same prayerful process. (I believe this only occurs every 5 years.)

I'm sure others will be able to give more detailed responses.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

are all the assemblies a 5 year term or is that particular to the UHJ?

thank you in advance for your answers as i suspect that some of them may take some digging on your behalf.

 

[9Harmony]

Namaste Vajra,

not to nitpick... so.. if there are 9 an assembly is formed for the local area and then these 9 are elected to 9 positions in the local area assembly? however, they cannot tell each other whom to vote for or make critical remarks of another, is that correct?

correct. (It simplifies the process quite a bit if there are only 9 in any given community. )

i realize that the tradition has no clergy.. so... in this group of 9 adults... who leads the "flock" so to speak?

Once an assembly is formed they will elect officers, i.e. Chair, vice-chair, secretary and treasurer, each has their specific role to fill. But as a rule no one person has authority over another. Consultation is the key. Hopefully arriving at a unanimous decision but if that does not occur, majority rules.

is the unit convention something that is above the local assembly but below the national convention? do the delegates that go to the national assembly of one nation elect members for another nation?

Ah, now we get into logistics. The unit conventions allow for isolated members of the Baha'i community to have input into the election of the delegate who will go to the National convention. Each country is divided up into electoral units. In my case it encompasses most of Nebraska and half of Iowa. Each October each unit has a convention in which we get to consult on issues within the larger community as well as have the opportunity to cast our ballot for the delegate. We also can vote by sending in an absentee ballot if unable to attend.

The delegates for each nation, vote for the National Spiritual Assembly of their own nation.

are all the assemblies a 5 year term or is that particular to the UHJ?

Assemblies are elected every year, only the UHJ is for 5 years.

thank you in advance for your answers as i suspect that some of them may take some digging on your behalf.

No problem, I didn't dig, yet .

I should mention that I personally have not served on an Assembly as I am an isolated believer. My daughters and I are the only Baha'i's in our county. Another recent development within the construct of the Faith is the formation of 'clusters'. This allows those of us who are isolated to form a community of sorts. My cluster includes 5 counties. This was the impetus we personally needed. We had always known we should get together and deepen etc. But never had gotten around to it. Now, since this development we are meeting regularly to hold feast, study circles and childrens classes, we will also be starting devotional gatherings soon. It is strengthening our knowledge and the bonds of friendship between us. We take turns meeting in each others homes. It has been wonderful. We cannot elect an Assembly in these clusters but can practice consultation and encourage individual intiative. As well as be better able to stay connected. I'm sure you can imagine how difficult it can be for anyone to be isolated with no one near by who holds the same views as you. It has been incredibly difficult for my daughters. But in the past few months their faith has also grown and they have discovered the beauty of the Faith through their own independent search. Thanks in part to the development of 'clusters'.

Keep the questions coming.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Harmony,


thank you for the reply.

as an aside... would it be fair to characterize the Baha'i faith as a tradition that promotes the majority rather than the minority? i.e. in a vote, the majority wins and the minority loses, are the minority then bound to the decision made by the majority?

 

[9Harmony]

Namaste Vajra,

I just want to address a couple points...

... however, it seems that since there is no "electioneering" i.e. trying to get votes, representing your position and so forth, how does one know whom to vote for and what they represent?

We need to be active in our communities and get to know people and vote based on our knowledge of their character. Only Baha'i's are eligible to serve in these capacities and as such they should all be representing the Baha'i principals. During Assembly meetings, the entire assembly will deepen on the writings to gain a greater understanding of the principal involved. And consult with each other until they feel they understand the issues. The Assembly is not just an administrative vehicle. If conducted properly the Assembly has the assistance of the concourse on high. Members are instructed to leave their egos at the door, each meeting begins with prayers and all members should be loving and courteous to each other. If conducted in the proper spirit, divine confirmations will descend upon their efforts.

(Baha'i consultation would make a good thread to elaborate on this theme -hint, hint )

... i know that i seem to be going on and on about it.. but i really have no tolerance (pun intended) for people that discriminate based on gender, race, creed, sexual orientation or physical impediment. i'm not saying that the Bahai' faith does this, however, this is the impression that i currently have based on my admittedly scarce knowledge of your tradition, thus, my repetitive queries.

Neither do we. Some Baha'i's also have a problem with this aspect, but I am not one of them. If we believe that Baha'u'llah is who He said He was, and this is what he designed, there must be a reason for it. We are told that this reason will become evident eventually. We are just not privy to it yet. Women can participate in all other areas of the Faith. There is alot of speculation within the community of why it's this way and when I have more time i can share some of them with you if you would like.

But it's time for me to leave right now. So let me know if i can assist further.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Harmony,


thank you for expounding on that topic a bit further....

can you explain what you mean when you use the word "deepen"? you use it here: "During Assembly meetings, the entire assembly will deepen on the writings to gain a greater understanding of the principal involved."

does this mean some sort of spiritual state is achieved and then the writings are reflected over, i.e. meditated on, to discern the spiritual truth hidden in the words?

i've got to leave for the day as well.. visit with the accupuncturist

enjoy your evening!

 

[arthra]

Assembly decisions, etc.

Namaste Harmony,


thank you for the reply.

as an aside... would it be fair to characterize the Baha'i faith as a tradition that promotes the majority rather than the minority? i.e. in a vote, the majority wins and the minority loses, are the minority then bound to the decision made by the majority?

In an Assembly we always aim for unamity and consensus...when this cannot be achieved after some efforts in consultation, then the majority prevails and the minority is expected to support it the decision of the Assembly...

We also are bound not to discuss Assembly business other than aking reports to the community at Feasts.

When Baha'is meet as an Assembly it is as an Institution.... The individual Baha'is that make up the Assembly count for nothing in themselves... that is they have no power as individuals...Their only "power" is representing the Assembly.

- Art

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

i was trying to limit it to the elected members of the UHJ as this is the ultimate arbiting authority for the Baha'i.

I fear you are quite mistaken!

The ultimate authority for Baha'is is the Baha'i scriptures, and hence, God (Who we believe revealed them)!

i cannot say what these 9 men do on a day to day basis... if you could fill us in that would greatly facilitate the conversation i suspect. however, it seems that since there is no "electioneering" i.e. trying to get votes, representing your position and so forth, how does one know whom to vote for and what they represent?

Serving on the House of Justice is a full-time position. And I suspect it takes all the time to deal with everything coming to it from the entire world! (At the national level, only the Secretary-General tends to be full time from what I've seen; the other eight members come--say--every two weeks to meet in person.)

As to how one knows whom to vote for, this is the same as for ALL Baha'i elections! One votes for the nine individuals one feels are best-equipped to serve. This tends to include such things as humility, dedication to God and to the Faith, depth of knowledge and experience, etc..

whilst i agree with the principle that 9 people do not a "body politic" make, if the group that is empowered to make binding decisions is not open to all members, it can be viewed in a very exclusive fasion.

It can be, yes. But this overlooks the fact that those serving--at ANY Baha'i administrative level--have no special status and no special authority whatever! They are "just Baha'is" like any other. Authority resides only in the body as a whole, and only when it is actually meeting. Also again, these are all positions of service, and the higher the administrative level, the more dedicated (and humble) those serving are likely to be!

It's also worth noting that there is no renown attached to serving on an elected Baha'i body. In contrast, there are positions of renown in the Faith, in particular those of Hand of the Cause of God and Continental Counsellor (who are collectively referred to as "the learned"). They have no administrative power themselves, but act as advisors to the elected bodies. And women serve and have always served in these positions!

i know that i seem to be going on and on about it.. but i really have no tolerance (pun intended) for people that discriminate based on gender, race, creed, sexual orientation or physical impediment.

Then I have very good news for you!

Baha'is do not "discriminate based on gender, race, . . .!"

God made this rule, not we! (And in fact, if it were left to us, the overwhelming majority of us probably would have set things up so that women could serve!) But since we (like all the rest of humanity) don't have the right to complain about or ignore God's decisions, we obey them.

(And as a footnote, another thing the detractors tend to omit is the fact that women also get their own priority over men--ALL women world wide, not just nine or fewer! This is in the matter of receipt of education: according to the Baha'i scriptures, every woman takes precedence over men for receipt of education!)

Peace,

Bruce

 

[arthra]

Namaste Harmony,


thank you for expounding on that topic a bit further....

can you explain what you mean when you use the word "deepen"? you use it here: "During Assembly meetings, the entire assembly will deepen on the writings to gain a greater understanding of the principal involved."

does this mean some sort of spiritual state is achieved and then the writings are reflected over, i.e. meditated on, to discern the spiritual truth hidden in the words?

i've got to leave for the day as well.. visit with the accupuncturist

enjoy your evening!

I think the answer to your question is in the affirmative... There are many Writings available pertaining to a variety of subjects as well as Letters of direct guildance from our Institions to the believers so time is spent in Prayer and Meditation before deliberating and making decisions... we have a process we call Consultation where every view on a topic is solicited and considered before a vote is taken... Once the Assembly decides on an issue that then is supported by the members.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again!

For the record, a "deepening" is Baha'i jargon for a study class. When we speak of folks deepening, we're generally referring to studying the Baha'i scriptures, mutually sharing impressions and opinions to arrive at a better understanding of them. An Assembly's deepening might be about the relevant Writings on a given topic, for example. . . .

would it be fair to characterize the Baha'i faith as a tradition that promotes the majority rather than the minority? i.e. in a vote, the majority wins and the minority loses, are the minority then bound to the decision made by the majority?

Consensus is always the goal. But if a consensus can't be reached, then decisions may be made through a majority vote, and once the decision is reached, all have the obligation to support the decision. (There are procedures through which one can request reconsideration of a matter, or in urgent cases, have the question referred to a higher administrative body, but this is rare.)

The Baha'i scriptures tell us that it's more important to preserve unity and work within that context to suggest further changes, than it is to risk splitting the community in order to force one's viewpoint. (As I trust you already know, promoting spiritual unity and oneness is the single major emphasis and goal of the Baha'i Faith.)

It would be misleading to dismiss this as mere tyranny of the majority, however. Not only do we believe that truth will eventually out such that bad decisions, if any, will ultimately be corrected, but there are protections and prerogatives for minorities in place, too!

Not only is "Unity in Diversity" the Baha'i watchword, but in particular, if two or more people tie for last place on a Baha'i administrative body in an election, if one of them is a minority, he or she automatically gets the office! The definition of "minority" varies from place to place. (If there is no minority tying, a run-off election is held between those who tied.)

And if you look at Baha'i administrative bodies from any diverse community, I think you'll find they have a striking amount of variety in their makeup!

(While Baha'i chorales clearly aren't administrative bodies, I sing in a couple of them, and I've been struck over the years by how many interfaith concerts we've sung at where the Baha'i chorale was the ONLY diverse group participating! In most cases EVERY other group was either all white or all black, or in a few cases all white except for a single black singer! Truly a pity, but I do think this shows something. . . .)

Peace,

Bruce

 

[barefootgal9]

Vaj

i cannot say what these 9 men do on a day to day basis... if you could fill us in that would greatly facilitate the conversation i suspect...

I don't entirely know... tho I suppose they start by getting up and brushing their teeth...

uh, ok. seriously: I can list some of the day-to-day things that they do:

-- direct a staff which includes secretariat, research team, others
-- deal with requests for specific guidance on issues from the xx National Spiritual Assemblies
-- respond to all recommendations suggested by the Baha'is at their Conventions
-- consult with counsellors, board members, etc about the needs/concerns of communities
-- develop plans for growth and consolidation
-- oversee the preparation of materials for use by communities to assist in improving their ability to serve the needs of the believers
-- they (more likely staff, in minor matters) respond to personal inquiries and questions from individual believers
-- oversee the preservation of original texts and their translation into other languages

Here is a link to the Constitution of the Universal House of Justice so that you can peruse it in detail, if you wish:

http://www.bahai.org/article-1-3-6-1.html

however, it seems that since there is no "electioneering" i.e. trying to get votes, representing your position and so forth, how does one know whom to vote for and what they represent?

Each of us votes for people whom we know, in our own local communities, we get to know each other pretty well. In very large communities (1000-2000 members, we are unlikely to know one another so intimately, but, we naturally get to know best those people who are most active -- these people become broadly known directly because of their levels of commitment, dedication and capacity. Once we reach the Convention level, our chosen delegates are generally people who are active on a regional or national level and tend to travel broadly, as regional teaching commitee members, speakers, summer school teachers, writers, website hosts, etc., and these people really are quite well known to us and to each other.

When a vote is taken, at any level, we are instructed to search our hearts for the people known to us who have the capacities needed to fill the role of serving on the elected institutions.

I'm going to holler for a little help from Shoghi Effendi here:

"Hence it is incumbent upon the chosen delegates to consider without the least trace of passion and prejudice, and irrespective of any material consideration, the names of only those who can best combine the necessary qualities of unquestioned loyalty, of selfless devotion, of a well-trained mind, of recognized ability and mature experience."

whilst i agree with the principle that 9 people do not a "body politic" make, if the group that is empowered to make binding decisions is not open to all members, it can be viewed in a very exclusive fasion.. perhaps this is what you (or another poster) were alluding to previously? in any event... this group, perhaps "executive body" would have been better? is the one from which women are excluded.

I guess this is an unanswerable. Maybe it's a Koan? I asked my ex-husband and friend (he is schizophrenic-Taoist-sort of Baha'i and an occassional source of a unique point of view!!!!) what I might answer to this, since we have already told you that we don't know why ... he said: "Because Baha'u'llah wanted it that way."

But perhaps a quote or two about the equality of men and women might assuage the "pricking of your thumbs" a bit:

"The emancipation of women, the achievement of full equality between the sexes is essential to human progress and the transformation of society. Inequality retards not only the advancement of women but the progress of civilization itself. The persistent denial of equality to one-half of the world's population is an affront to human dignity. It promotes destructive attitudes and habits in men and women that pass from the family to the work place, to political life, and ultimately to international relations. On no grounds, moral, biological, or traditional can inequality be justified. The moral and psychological climate necessary to enable our nation to establish social justice and to contribute to global peace will be created only when women attain full partnership with men in all fields of endeavor." First paragraph of Two Wings of a Bird; The Equality of Women and Men
by National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States
entire document at:
http://bahai-library.com/?file=nsa_two_wings_bird.html

no, make that just one quote. I've already given you a day's worth of reading. If you do a search at that link you will find dozens of similar documents. This one represents our attitude very well.

i know that i seem to be going on and on about it.. but i really have no tolerance (pun intended) for people that discriminate based on gender, race, creed, sexual orientation or physical impediment. i'm not saying that the Bahai' faith does this, however, this is the impression that i currently have based on my admittedly scarce knowledge of your tradition, thus, my repetitive queries.

i do appreciate the patience that has been shown whilst engaging in my sometimes pointless conversation.[/QUOTE]

Well, this sort of answers your question about what is "deepening." People keep asking questions and we keep having to hit the books... thus we expand our knowledge and "deepen" our understanding. Wrestling with angels is good for us. ;-)

oh.. i've got some big ones that, again based on my scant knowledge, would seem to be rather tricky for the Baha'i

I know. I don't mind. And wrestling with angels is probably good for you, too. ;-)

i'm interested in exploring this topic a bit further though, so i'll refrain for now from asking anything else.

I'll be here as long as your curiosity holds out.

well.. as long as it is a small corner and not too well decorated... i suppose that a Manifestation of God can disagree with me... though honestly, why they would want to is beyond me

;-) aw, let us keep the nice decorations...