Combining the Sects of Abraham

[bananabrain]

er, bishadi - that post just isn't in english. and i don't think you're in any position to criticise my level of education in judaism or indeed anything else.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Amica]

Hello/Peace/Salaam/Shallom,

Well, the way I see it is this:

Some of the similarities:

1) All three Abrahamic religions claim belief in One God
2) All three teach Abraham to be the father of their faiths
3) All three teach that the Holy Bible is the Revelation from God
4) For all three, prayers are important
5) All three claim the basis of their believes back to the 10 commandments

Some of the differences:

1) Islaam and Chrisitanity: recognize Jesus as the Messiah promised to the world; appocaliptic faiths;
2) Judaism: no recognition of Jesus as the Messiah or a prophet
3) Islaam: recognizes both Judaism and Chrstianity as authentic faiths revealed by the Word of God (the Holy Bible)
4) Christianity: recognizes Judaism as an authentic faith preceeding it, but does not recognize Islaam
5) Judaism: no recognition of Islaam or Christianity as authentic faiths
6) Christianity: claims to understand the nature of God as 'trinity'
7) Islaam and Judaism: claim that true monotheism is not a trinity

 

[Dream]

It is a stretch to say that Christianity understands trinity, which is something that has been hotly debated throughout the centuries. It is a stretch to say Islaam recognizes Jesus as the promised prophet. Also Christians may not recognize Islaam, yet many of them see salvation as something not on the basis of creeds anymore but on a more sublime basis. Jews, while they do not recognize Christianity do recognize all religions as existing for a purpose and potentially positive. All of these things really depend on whom you ask the questions.

 

[path_of_one]

I agree with you, Dream. It gets down to whether you are looking at certain sects' views on the matter, or certain individuals'.

I'm one of the Christians, or more aptly, Christ-followers, that recognizes Islam and Judaism both as entirely valid religions for their followers. And while I do use the concept of trinity to as a heuristic device to help me engage with God- almost as a koan- I don't think any person can correctly define God... so the trinity isn't a "thing" to me. It isn't what God is, but rather a way for me to expand my consciousness in an effort to get closer to God.

From what I gathered from most Jews I've talked with about the matter (granted, it isn't a carefully sampled study or something), they think that Christianity is fine for Gentiles if it's what we want to practice. As I understand it, if a Gentile is following the Noahide laws then we're doing our part in creating a good world and engaging with God. I've never yet met a Jew who told me I had to be Jewish to be "saved." It seems that the emphasis is on here/now- correct practice- rather than conversion.

As for Islam, I haven't talked to as many Muslims, but I have talked to quite a few and many of them also didn't feel Christians needed to become Muslims. There were notable criticisms of Christian practice not meshing with Christ's teachings, but then we can say this of any religion. (Ah, those pesky humans messing up a good thing. )

I think there are two ways to look at unity. One is to get everyone to agree on everything and create One Religion. The other is to get people to be tolerant, interested, and understanding in other people enough that they respect other beliefs and even might learn something from them. That is, there is unity of respect and love, with diversity of belief and practice.

I think unity in the former sense is sad and oppressive. It removes all the beauty of the diverse ways humans have engaged with God. I think unity in the latter sense is a glorious thing. We can see people as people and not as some religious label. And in so doing, we can practice our own religion more fully, more deeply, with a better understanding of our own unique path.

 

[seattlegal]

I would have to agree with you, Path. Can you force God into a box by insisting on only one single, one-fits-all sized religion? {sideways reference to fig leaves...}

 

[Monty]

Since each of the main branches of Abrahamic religions could be described as Judaism, Islam and Christianity, then what are the unifying beliefs over and above monotheism?

The main branch of modern day Christianity cannot be described as 'Islam', for allthough the Christians define the 'trinity' concept as 'monothiesm', Islam defines it as polythiesm

What combines them and then what are the prophecies that each share?

We share many moral principles such as do not lie, swear, steal, be good to neighbour, do not commit crimes, be just, etc, and Muslims and Christians share the prophecy of Jesus [pbuh] returning [allthough we have different concepts of who Jesus pbuh is] and of the anti-Christ who is expected near the end of time.

Meaning what is the missing link to combine the beliefs/people?

From an Islamic point of view, the missing link is: the Christians need to alter their concept of monothiesm and bring it in line with true monothiesm and both the Jews and the Christians need to accept the Last and final messenger of God, Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

From an Islamic point of view, the missing link is: the Christians need to alter their concept of monothiesm and bring it in line with true monothiesm and both the Jews and the Christians need to accept the Last and final messenger of God, Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him.

I like that! It's the unvarnished truth. Simple and straight up.

I imagine the bottom line for Christianity would have to include recognition of the divinity of Christ. How that could ever not be a deal breaker for Islam and Judaism is hard to imagine.

Chris

 

[Bishadi]

The main branch of modern day Christianity cannot be described as 'Islam', for allthough the Christians define the 'trinity' concept as 'monothiesm', Islam defines it as polythiesm

the comment and thread was to share what CAN combine them....

it was note for one believer to talk bad about the other ..... are you trying to start a war or something?

We share many moral principles such as do not lie, swear, steal, be good to neighbour, do not commit crimes, be just, etc,

Good stuff

and Muslims and Christians share the prophecy of Jesus [pbuh] returning [allthough we have different concepts of who Jesus pbuh is] and of the anti-Christ who is expected near the end of time.

it is near the end times and you be closer than you think to what grounds the new beginning.

From an Islamic point of view, the missing link is: the Christians need to alter their concept of monothiesm and bring it in line with true monothiesm and both the Jews and the Christians need to accept the Last and final messenger of God, Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him.

So either we be like you or not? Is that what you are trying to say.

Heck it seems all the muscle in the middle east is opposing your exact type of thinking let alone that specific religion, in fact.

be certain my young friend; all the religions will be nothing but history very soon..

so from this we have 2 good line of truth.... be responsible as the basic rules above suggest pretty universal ideas...

and the religions will be history with the 'revealing' of the truth; that even all three religions know is coming.

p/s.... mohammed was not even alive when the quran was written... maybe if you get a grip on that reality, you might cross over into being a little more humble with how little you really know.

or better still;
mohammed was not alive when the quran was written

moses was not alive when the torah was written

and jesus was not alive when the new testamant was written

so everyone equal....

now how about the fun stuff...... like we all getting 72 virgins or is it 27...

and we get to watch dragons eat seals during the rapture while some dude is flying around rapturing just before he builds a new zion smashing the old temple down but keeping the 'rock' garden of course... all in a barren waste land of the desert... to be the city of heaven ... AAAAAAAAAMEEEEEEENNNN.

don't forget to do the cross sign in the air, in front of you and say; hey you a wops, get offa the lawn

that is what the pope is saying, right? It's supposed to be in scripture... Mad 51:50

 

[path_of_one]

I imagine the bottom line for Christianity would have to include recognition of the divinity of Christ.

There's still disagreement in Christianity as to what the divinity of Christ means. Is Christ God or not- that issue. There are denominations of Christianity that do not see Christ as God. Of course, these aer often seen as heretical by the others.

 

[path_of_one]

Bishadi- I don't think Monty was saying anything bad about Christianity or Judaism. I think it's just the standard Muslim viewpoint- we should be believing Muhammad as a prophet and be forthrightly monotheistic.

Same as the standard Christian viewpoint is that we should accept the Trinity.

Same as the standard Jewish viewpoint that Judaism is sufficient.

It's not that any uniformly see the others as bad, but there's no reason not to be honest about the differences.

 

[Monty]

Bishadi- I don't think Monty was saying anything bad about Christianity or Judaism. I think it's just the standard Muslim viewpoint- we should be believing Muhammad as a prophet and be forthrightly monotheistic.

Same as the standard Christian viewpoint is that we should accept the Trinity.

Same as the standard Jewish viewpoint that Judaism is sufficient.

It's not that any uniformly see the others as bad, but there's no reason not to be honest about the differences.

Thank you path of one, you have replied correctly to Bishadi's paranoia about my post

 

[Bishadi]

Thank you path of one, you have replied correctly to Bishadi's paranoia about my post

path of one is far the better in forgiving as core to her resounding compassion

The main branch of modern day Christianity cannot be described as 'Islam',

Was an opinion based in your idea of how Islam represents Christianity.

for allthough the Christians define the 'trinity' concept as 'monothiesm', Islam defines it as polytheism

So in the heart and beliefs of Christians, they are submissive to ONE god. Yet, in your opinion, Islam's opinion is other, when most praying is to Mohammed with all the 'peace be to him' stuff everytime the name is mentioned as if he too walked on water, but never wrote a line in the book

From an Islamic point of view, the missing link is: the Christians need to alter their concept of monothiesm

is like saying;

'well the christian and jewish folk suggest Islam needs to stop jihadding' as the way, 'they are using the term' ............'we the people' are at war...

so please; you 'did' throw the first punch.... and the 'path of one' has shared much greater compassion to possibly; seeing what good you were possible conveying and all I did was read what you wrote

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

There's still disagreement in Christianity as to what the divinity of Christ means. Is Christ God or not- that issue. There are denominations of Christianity that do not see Christ as God. Of course, these aer often seen as heretical by the others.

Good point! I was just chuckling, imagining "final status" talks between the leaders of the big three. All the Cardinals and patriarchs, Imams and grand ayatollahs, Rabbis, Rebbe's perhaps, each with his own funky headdress and spiffy robe, arguing the fine points of "compromise." It would be absolutely hysterical!

Chris

 

[path_of_one]

each with his own funky headdress and spiffy robe, arguing the fine points of "compromise." It would be absolutely hysterical!

Chris

LOL- oh, see here- another point of unity among world religions! We all have a taste for funky hats and spiffy robes!

Even me... seriously, I have a Druid robe in my closet as we speak. Maybe that's what was lacking in my Christianity- the cool robes. No fair that only the priest gets one!

 

[seattlegal]

LOL- oh, see here- another point of unity among world religions! We all have a taste for funky hats and spiffy robes!

Even me... seriously, I have a Druid robe in my closet as we speak. Maybe that's what was lacking in my Christianity- the cool robes. No fair that only the priest gets one!

Galatians 3:26-27
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

 

[Bishadi]

Galatians 3:26-27
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

so basically to follow the words of christ, correct?

18And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one [is] good except One -- God;

or do you prefer to observe what your preacher tells you to observe?

as to combine the religions means each must loose their 'faith' and return to what is taught of compassion within each sect.

faith causes war.

 

[path_of_one]

faith causes war.

No, it doesn't. Faith is just (from dictionary):

1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction;

What leads to war is self-centeredness.

That can twist anything, including faith, into something ugly and violent. We go to war because we fear and we are angry. Fear and anger have nothing to do with faith, but they have everything to do with humans being unenlightened- that is, focused on an illusory "self" rather than on others (the One, the All).

It doesn't matter if, underneath this unenlightenment, there is faith, or nationalism, or science... or any other kind of "identity" issue. The problem is the identity and ego itself. And it won't be solved until people get over themselves and move into a space of compassion toward all beings. That can be had with faith or without, but it is a transformation that is necessary for peace.

 

[bananabrain]

3) Islaam: recognizes both Judaism and Chrstianity as authentic faiths revealed by the Word of God (the Holy Bible)

actually, amica, some forms of islam claim that the "authentic faith" of judaism no longer effectively exists, because the Tawrah is said to be "corrupted". obviously that would mean that there were no longer any authentic jews left since Qur'anic times - but this is, for the most part, an extreme takfiri position.

(5) Judaism: no recognition of Islaam or Christianity as authentic faiths

this is incorrect, as path said here:

From what I gathered from most Jews I've talked with about the matter (granted, it isn't a carefully sampled study or something), they think that Christianity is fine for Gentiles if it's what we want to practice. As I understand it, if a Gentile is following the Noahide laws then we're doing our part in creating a good world and engaging with God. I've never yet met a Jew who told me I had to be Jewish to be "saved." It seems that the emphasis is on here/now- correct practice- rather than conversion.

we recognise both of them as monotheistic faiths in possession of many important spiritual truths and, as such we have a kinship with them and recognise them as "daughter" religions, such that they are not considered idolatrous.

I imagine the bottom line for Christianity would have to include recognition of the divinity of Christ. How that could ever not be a deal breaker for Islam and Judaism is hard to imagine.

exactly - it is the claims of supercession and universality we have a problem with, as well as anyone else who doesn't see that they should be christian or muslim.

be certain my young friend; all the religions will be nothing but history very soon..

oh, *yawn*. what a load of apocalyptic codswallop. people have been saying this about us jews for several thousand years, yet here we remain - 'am yisrael hai!

moses was not alive when the torah was written

says you. and i don't see what makes you such an expert.

Good point! I was just chuckling, imagining "final status" talks between the leaders of the big three. All the Cardinals and patriarchs, Imams and grand ayatollahs, Rabbis, Rebbe's perhaps, each with his own funky headdress and spiffy robe, arguing the fine points of "compromise." It would be absolutely hysterical!

actually, chris, it's already going on: Alexandria Process - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as to combine the religions means each must loose their 'faith' and return to what is taught of compassion within each sect.

i kind of agree with the "compassion" bit of this, but i don't think the "faith" bit makes sense. i know what you *mean*, but you're not expressing it in a very clear manner. like path says, self-centeredness, or selfishness if you prefer, is far more conducive to war.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Bishadi]

No, it doesn't. Faith is just (from dictionary):

What leads to war is self-centeredness.

and what about a belief causing a self centeredness. i.e... the choses ones

Israel; creating a religious state within Palestine because they 'deserved it'?

That can twist anything, including faith, into something ugly and violent.

such as today's killings of innicent people (911) to make a point or how about Gaza.... how about how 2 religious causes are creating a global conflict.....

We go to war because we fear and we are angry.

and resources...

Fear and anger have nothing to do with faith,

that is almost funny in the darkness over shadowing how Iran suggested that Israel should be wiped off the map; so now Israel is going to bomb Iran based in fear, anger and faith....

It doesn't matter if, underneath this unenlightenment, there is faith, or nationalism, or science... or any other kind of "identity" issue. The problem is the identity and ego itself.

gogo ego Israel.... and they deserver repirations from Germany too ? From the children of the country, of a man who began a war; should they 'have to pay'?

from bananabrain

oh, *yawn*. what a load of apocalyptic codswallop. people have been saying this about us jews for several thousand years, yet here we remain - 'am yisrael hai!

but right now we live in the atomic age....

and the exact situation... in the exact time.... with the exact material knowledge on earth to combine the four colors of mankind (of light)

as well, people are willing to die for their beliefs..........

now most of Islam really do not keep attention to the revelations but they are in the quran and can be accounted

 

[path_of_one]

and what about a belief causing a self centeredness. i.e... the choses ones

A belief doesn't cause self-centeredness. Self-centeredness leads to certain beliefs.

If you understood how the Jews see chosen-ness, you might not see it in this light. From what I understand, it had nothing to do with being better than other people, but rather willingness to have the Torah. (BB, I'm sure, will explain it better than I.)

My point is that being chosen for something has nothing whatsoever to do with self-centeredness. I was chosen to be good at certain things and so I do them. Doesn't mean I will be self-centered. Specialness is not selfishness.

such as today's killings of innicent people (911) to make a point or how about Gaza.... how about how 2 religious causes are creating a global conflict.....

That religion and faith are used by people to justify self-centeredness doesn't make one spring from the other. Nationalism, political creeds, economics, and other aspects of culture also justify war and violence. Again, it isn't the ideas. It is how we use them, how they are tied to the maintenance of "me" and "mine."

and resources...

Which stems from people's unwillingness to sacrifice "mine" for the collective good and sustainability. We wouldn't have resource issues if we practiced sustainable living and generosity-- these are grounded in compassion as opposed to selfishness. So this issue of resources is also grounded in the same fear (of losing what's mine), greed (to increase what's mine), and anger (that you might have more than me).

as well, people are willing to die for their beliefs..........

Being willing to die isn't the problem. Being willing to kill is.