Combining the Sects of Abraham

[Bishadi]

A belief doesn't cause self-centeredness. Self-centeredness leads to certain beliefs.

Which thereby become the next generations faith.

If you understood how the Jews see chosen-ness, you might not see it in this light. From what I understand, it had nothing to do with being better than other people, but rather willingness to have the Torah. (BB, I'm sure, will explain it better than I.)

Moses 10 C...

and in Judaism I think it is #9.... no fibbing..

so to fib, not good........ but many of the sect will say the Jewish line are the chosen ones ....... by belief, not adherance to the words

makes pure sense that the true concept of being chosen is to adhere to the rules but when adherance permits deception; then the belief is off the mark

but another idea of chosen ones could be to be with Good (God) then they will be chosen; in contrast to do bad is away from God (isolating or islolated from)... this can be as the 'group' puts you out, or in the literal way, to be bad, each choice isolation for truth but focusd on self as priority

 

[path_of_one]

Which thereby become the next generations faith.

Only with their permission, Bishadi. We all have free will. Plenty of people are raised in belief systems contrary to love and goodness, and rise above. No matter what our cultural, religion, or other background, the Spirit is available to everyone and we need only seek to find.

I don't like the victim mentality- that produces helplessness and excuses for not transcending bad action.

We should recognize injustice and work lovingly for justice. But always keeping in mind that each person chooses to authentically seek out truth, beauty, and love... or not. No one makes that choice for them.

 

[lunamoth]

The Christian claim therefore is that the Jews don't know how to read their own scriptures.

I don't think so, at least not all Christians would say this. It's incredibly arrogant, and cutting oneself off at the leg, to say the Jews don't understand their own scriptures. I think the only way to get to Christian interpretations of the OT is to start with belief in Christ and reinterpret back using this lens.

The Jewish response: good grief!

Good grief indeed!

 

[lunamoth]

The other is to get people to be tolerant, interested, and understanding in other people enough that they respect other beliefs and even might learn something from them. That is, there is unity of respect and love, with diversity of belief and practice.

I totally agree path (surprise, surprise! ). Start with love and unity (and all the other virtues) will flow from there.

 

[Bishadi]

Only with their permission, Bishadi.

Sorry as bush does not have my permission to support the conflict in the middle east... and yet we still ALL labeled... with or without the choice....

No matter what our cultural, religion, or other background, the Spirit is available to everyone and we need only seek to find.

The truth that combines beliefs into comprehensionable awarenes is what you've had for the last week and had no idea.

That is the foundation darling.

We should recognize injustice and work lovingly for justice.

that means becoming both introspective and well judgmental but none of it is perfected without the rule estabglished in fact rather than beliefs.

But always keeping in mind that each person chooses to authentically seek out truth, beauty, and love... or not. No one makes that choice for them.

absolutely and since we know many pursue tangents under the same headings, then the grounding foundation in which reality is placed in comprehensible knowledge, should be the primary pursuit to make sure the next generation does not have to continue walking in circles and has them rules in fact....

 

[path_of_one]

Sorry as bush does not have my permission to support the conflict in the middle east... and yet we still ALL labeled... with or without the choice....

That is a different issue. You spoke of beliefs, here you speak of political power.

The truth that combines beliefs into comprehensionable awarenes is what you've had for the last week and had no idea.

Awareness is a state of consciousness, not a belief. Beliefs, including your own, are just fingers pointing at the moon. The moon remains what it is. I've long been aware of that. I'm still working on responding to your document, but it is not anything new (at least not to me). It is not necessary to combine beliefs to have awareness. The state of awareness transcends belief and brings all beliefs into focus as a way of conceptualizing experience and a way to focus our minds to work toward manifesting love.

That is the foundation darling.

No offense, but please- no pet names. You don't know me well enough, and I am not your darling. I do not know if your primary language is English or not, but in case it is not and this is a simple mistake, you should know that darling is a term of intimate endearment in English, and is not appropriately used between relative strangers.

that means becoming both introspective and well judgmental but none of it is perfected without the rule estabglished in fact rather than beliefs.

You'll have to try again, I'm afraid. This is jumbled and not making clear sense in English.

absolutely and since we know many pursue tangents under the same headings, then the grounding foundation in which reality is placed in comprehensible knowledge, should be the primary pursuit to make sure the next generation does not have to continue walking in circles and has them rules in fact....

You know I disagree. The grounding foundation of reality is not knowledge, but mindfulness and love. Reality is itself ever-changing and arguably unknowable. When we recognize and accept this, we transcend it.

People do not walk in circles (i.e., fail to make spiritual progress) because they lack rules. People walk in circles because they fail to be mindful of what they are doing, so they don't realize they are walking in circles. People will not become mindful of this through rules- yours or anyone's. People become mindful through a conscious choice to be so- to cultivate that state of consciousness within them.

I will explain a bit further...

I have an uncle who is very handicapped- mentally and physically. He can only read simple words. He cannot understand difficult concepts. He would never in a million years understand anything you've written. He has the faith of a child- he loves God. He loves Jesus. He loves and believes in angels. He loves everyone around him. He's patient with his afflictions, which have been many and his pain has been great. He's joyful.

Now... if salvation comes from complex knowledge of math and physics and transcending belief and whatever, people such as this cannot be saved. So... such a belief system is elitist.

I would say my uncle is closer to the heart of God than most- closer certainly than I am. His is a simple, loving life. It is the love and patience and joy in his life that is evidence of his unity with God. It doesn't matter that he believes in winged angels that will one day carry him home to heaven. The beliefs are swallowed up by his simplicity and love.

I see this in action all the time, in people of various walks of life...

The belief is not the problem. The problem is whether or not people are mindful. Truth is not about rules (which is really just another conceptualization of reality- more beliefs). Truth is not about formulas. Truth is lived and experienced.

 

[Bishadi]

Awareness is a state of consciousness, not a belief.
It is not necessary to combine beliefs to have awareness.

how can you be aware if your have no idea what you are seeing? Meaning a child does not even know the name or aware of what a God is or even milk until taught.

You know I disagree. The grounding foundation of reality is not knowledge, but mindfulness and love.

without knowledge you could not even spell mindfullness correctly.

People do not walk in circles (i.e., fail to make spiritual progress) because they lack rules. People walk in circles because they fail to be mindful of what they are doing, so they don't realize they are walking in circles.

And that is why knowledge evolved in the first place.

I have an uncle who is very handicapped- mentally and physically. He can only read simple words. He cannot understand difficult concepts. He would never in a million years understand anything you've written. He has the faith of a child- he loves God. He loves Jesus. He loves and believes in angels. He loves everyone around him. He's patient with his afflictions, which have been many and his pain has been great. He's joyful.

and so basic human compassion can be felt if the world in uncomplicated but that is his world; not the 7 billion on the planet.

Now... if salvation comes from complex knowledge of math and physics and transcending belief and whatever, people such as this cannot be saved. So... such a belief system is elitist.

not even close; it means when people associate they can learn correctly and without angels as misleading information for the reason somethin appears magical..

or simply; no more angels/phenomena

p/s..... no need for your response....

 

[Dream]

Today I bought a translation of the Quran with English translation and commentary.

 

[path_of_one]

There may not be the need for my response, but that is what a discussion forum is for.

how can you be aware if your have no idea what you are seeing? Meaning a child does not even know the name or aware of what a God is or even milk until taught.

That is not true. Any child can experience things and learn from them. We do not learn everything from other humans. We learn some things directly from our experience of the world around us.

A child drinks milk and experiences it directly before it learns the word and is taught where it comes from.

I began experiencing spiritual things, including God, long before I was taught about them. And I was never taught a coherent religious belief system. My beliefs are a response to my own spiritual experiences.

without knowledge you could not even spell mindfullness correctly.

That is a non-argument. Knowledge of spelling allows me to discuss with you, but without such knowledge I would only be limited in my ability to communicate with you, not in my ability to experience life and develop spiritually from this experience.

And that is why knowledge evolved in the first place.

To really get out of going in circles, we can't just know we are doing that intellectually. We have to shift our consciousness so that we are living and embodying our understanding of what we are doing, which is mindful living.

This truth is upheld by findings in modern psychology. The patient can be given the knowledge that they have an illness, but until they really embrace it and mindfully reflect on their feelings, thoughts, and behaviors, they do not improve. I have seen this many times with many different mental illnesses. You could say that the generalized human condition is a bit like a subtle, low-level mental illness- a lot of anxiety, fear, anger, resentment, etc. going on and until people become mindful of how they feel and are acting, and choose otherwise, this just continues... even if they are given the knowledge that things could be better.

To take a simpler example, practically everyone knows that they should recycle. They know why this is a good thing. Yet, lots of people don't recycle. To change knowledge into action in the world requires an experience, a shift in priorities and consciousness, in the individual. Knowledge is not enough, and cognitive studies show this time and again.

and so basic human compassion can be felt if the world in uncomplicated but that is his world; not the 7 billion on the planet.

It is up to each of us how complicated we wish it to be. We each create our reality- we choose how we will see the world.

I don't find compassion complicated at all. I can choose in every moment to see the divine in all beings, and this creates unity and gives me the capacity to be compassionate. At the same time, I can be aware of each being individually and where they are at- their feelings, thoughts, and actions- to help me understand the best response to them.

We make spirituality and compassionate action a lot more complicated than it needs to be.

not even close; it means when people associate they can learn correctly and without angels as misleading information for the reason somethin appears magical..

When people associate with what? I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. And what is learning correctly? Who are you, or I, or anyone for that matter to define for other people the correct way to learn?

People have different personalities, intelligences, learning styles. You may want to review Myers-Briggs and modern personality models (OCEAN is a particularly useful one), Gardner regarding multiple intelligences, and outgrowths of these. I can provide more references if you would like. My point is- people are all different, with varying gifts and ways of perceiving, conceptualizing, and learning about their world. There is no one correct way- yours or mine or anyone's. Each person must find their own correct method through which to learn.

This is partly why the old world (and indigenous) religious traditions have such a rich and varied path toward understanding- to accommodate the diversity inherent in humanity.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Today I bought a translation of the Quran with English translation and commentary.

Good luck with that.

Fabulous avatar, BTW.

Chris

 

[Dream]

Thanks, man.

 

[path_of_one]

I agree. Made me want it for my own. Avatar envy. Tsk-tsk

 

[bananabrain]

bishadi,

this discussion is going to go nowhere very fast if you don't at least make an effort to write coherently. it looks like you've been smoking too much dope.

and what about a belief causing a self centeredness. i.e... the chosen ones

the only people who feel self-centered about that particular belief are those who don't actually understand it. and the people who experience it as somehow chauvinist are imposing their own understanding - albeit there is considerable reason for concern on this particular point.

Israel; creating a religious state within Palestine because they 'deserved it'?

the people who created the state of israel were not religious. they did not see it in terms of the Divine promise. many of the people who are being most inflexible and contributing to the perpetuation of the current conflict, however, do see it that way. and, yes, i would agree, these people are very self-centred, which causes violence. however, a) the "self-centredness" is not all one side and b) i fail to see how your rather pathetic attempt to personalise this is going to help us concentrate on the issue.

gogo ego Israel.... and they deserver repirations from Germany too ? From the children of the country, of a man who began a war; should they 'have to pay'?

hmmm. you may not realise this, but a lot of the survivors of the holocaust live in israel and are very much alive. they suffer from ongoing mental and physical health issues; i think it is only fair that the german government make a contribution - they are hardly carrying the can for the entire expense, bearing in mind that all these people are entitled to go back to germany as citizens and claim rather better german social benefits. i realise there are a number of german citizens who don't understand this, but if the financial consequences of starting wars were better understood and better publicised, perhaps people would be less likely to start one. as for reparations - no doubt you think that the palestinian refugees are entitled to compensation from the israeli government for the loss of their ancestral homes and many of their assets; and i agree with this too, but it all has to be equitable; arab governments need to compensate their ex-jewish citizens, most of whom live in israel now, for the loss of *their* ancestral homes and assets. what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

and the exact situation... in the exact time.... with the exact material knowledge on earth to combine the four colors of mankind (of light)

yeah, baby, like cosmic, orright?

My point is that being chosen for something has nothing whatsoever to do with self-centeredness. I was chosen to be good at certain things and so I do them. Doesn't mean I will be self-centered. Specialness is not selfishness.

exactly.

makes pure sense that the true concept of being chosen is to adhere to the rules but when adherance permits deception; then the belief is off the mark

i have no idea what you are on about here.

The truth that combines beliefs into comprehensionable awarenes is what you've had for the last week and had no idea.

possibly because your english is so incomprehensionable [sic].

how can you be aware if your have no idea what you are seeing? Meaning a child does not even know the name or aware of what a God is or even milk until taught.

i might say the same thing of your comprehension of my religious outlook.

without knowledge you could not even spell mindfullness [sic] correctly.

what, you mean like you spelled it? sheesh.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Bishadi]

bishadi,

this discussion is going to go nowhere very fast if you don't at least make an effort to write coherently. it looks like you've been smoking too much dope.

not me the one who is a self proclaimed bananabrain......

the only people who feel self-centered about that particular belief are those who don't actually understand it. and the people who experience it as somehow chauvinist are imposing their own understanding - albeit there is considerable reason for concern on this particular point.

I agree "and the people who experience it as somehow chauvinist are imposing their own understanding "

as after reading your post..... you have little understanding.... just rhetoric

i.e... read these next 2 lines

the people who created the state of israel were not religious.

and

they did not see it in terms of the Divine promise.

as the majority on the globe, knows exactly why Israel was created....

you just don't have a clue....... again very little understanding

i fail to see how your rather pathetic attempt to personalise this is going to help us concentrate on the issue.

Not even concerned about your opinion as you don't even comprhend why Israel (the olive tree) was all about............ how pathetic can a bananabrain get?


Not even going to touch the reparations issue, as you make it sound like all the kids will be 'paying' for all the parents atrocities......

Then who is going to pay for your foolishness on these posts?

i have no idea what you are on about here.

Because you have no idea what we were talking about...... a paper was sent for Path of One to read.....

just like your comprehension; a little short of understanding, but still rapping away.....

possibly because your english is so incomprehensionable

i might say the same thing of your comprehension of my religious outlook.

Not concerned about your opinion....... as you shared just on this one post how, little you really know....... and care not 'to' understand, but enjoy barking all the same....

the handle 'bananabrain' fits.......

 

[Amica]

Peace to all of you.

I think I was not referring to the people from each religous group in general. Of course, if one asks a Muslim/Jew/Christian if they feel the three faiths are religions, each would say yes, because after all it is a fact. All three religions exist today,regardless how their followers practice them.

In terms of the religons recognizing each other, I was speaking more of the recognition of their messages. For instance, Jews do not read the Holy Qur'an on a daily basis along with their Scriptures. Nor do Christians. Simply because the original message for Judaism and Christianity were not that another Book will be revealed, and they do not recognize the Holy Qur'an as a true Message.

I think that every monotheistic religion claims its 'purity'. Each one that comes after the previous claims superiority. It's just how it is. Jews probably love their religion the way it is, and do not feel it needs to be changed/transformed/adjusted. For them it is perfect and why would they want another faith? Why recognize, in their view perhaps, anything else to be a correct path? Christians, most of them, relate to Judaism, but it seems to me feel that through Jesus pbuh they got the Message polished, cleared out, corrected in some way. Muslims, it seems, feel that both Judaism and Christianity are truly Islaam, with its own polished/corrected version of monotheism. And then you have Bahais... etc.

We all recognize each others faiths to be existing, but not necessarily all of them as correct at the same time.
I hope I am making more sense It's 2am over here

 

[seattlegal]

Imagine that!

Saudi king opens interfaith conference in Spain
Abdullah calls for unity among Jews, Christians, Muslims

 

[Dream]

Cool link.

Related to combining the Abrahamic type faiths:

I used to think I had a part to play in restoring clarity to Biblical understanding and in preserving the gospel! With fearful sincerity I tried to keep the earth suspended above hell by puffing myself up beneath it, but I was deluded to think that any man would even be able to assist in such an endeavor. That weight is too great, and everything is actually being accomplished by G!d. My favorite Christian letter writer tells me that knowledge only puffs up but love builds up, and his argument is, in turn, based solidly upon Scripture! If we think we're doing something about truth, we would actually accomplish more good by babysitting, washing the dishes, or taking out the trash. You can quote me on that.

 

[bananabrain]

as after reading your post..... you have little understanding.... just rhetoric

oh, is that so? well at least i can write a coherent sentence.

as the majority on the globe, knows exactly why Israel was created....

really? why don't you enlighten me then, o all-wise one?

you just don't have a clue....... again very little understanding

so you're saying that *i* don't have any understanding of israel or its history, or of how the jewish world sees and saw israel? i think it is rather you that needs to demonstrate that you're capable of something other than writing vaguely-worded insinuations about subjects you are not qualified to evaluate.

Not even concerned about your opinion as you don't even comprehend why Israel (the olive tree) was all about

olive tree? what on earth are you on about? so far what you have done is make the most odd statements which are barely in english and then have the cheek to tell me *i* don't comprehend things? where the hell do you get off?

Not even going to touch the reparations issue, as you make it sound like all the kids will be 'paying' for all the parents atrocities......

only if you understand the most basic issues of time-lag in social provision. these guys were originally german citizens, right? they're entitled to reclaim their german citizenship, right? (in fact, according to ahmedinejad, that's what ought to happen!) so, as pensioners, they are entitled to state support, right? i don't think your quarrel is with me - i think it's with the tax system. the taxpayers of today support the taxpayers of yesteryear everywhere in the world - and end up paying for their mistakes.

Then who is going to pay for your foolishness on these posts?

i think i'd watch my tone if i were you, or you're going to end up getting moderated.

just like your comprehension; a little short of understanding, but still rapping away.....

don't you patronise me. the only one making assertions about things they can't possibly know here is you. you don't know me, so kindly refrain from acting like you do.

Not concerned about your opinion

is this right up there with your "no need to answer" post earlier? because, let me tell you, this site isn't a soapbox for pontificators. expect to get challenged. clearly, you don't like it when people actually ask you to justify your politico-mystical mumbo-jumbo and say what you mean.

In terms of the religons recognizing each other, I was speaking more of the recognition of their messages. For instance, Jews do not read the Holy Qur'an on a daily basis along with their Scriptures. Nor do Christians. Simply because the original message for Judaism and Christianity were not that another Book will be revealed, and they do not recognize the Holy Qur'an as a true Message.

i don't know if i'd put it like that, amica. i'd probably say that i recognise the Qur'an as a message, but that this message isn't addressed to me; i have my own message and don't need another one.

I think that every monotheistic religion claims its 'purity'.

i don't know about that either. we've been very affected by everything from idolatry to aristotelianism to the enlightenment to nationalism; so has everyone else. i think claims to purity are probably quite spurious; the only thing i really believe is pure is the Text - but by the time one understands it, it has become very much adulterated through interpretation and that goes for me just as for others.

Jews probably love their religion the way it is, and do not feel it needs to be changed/transformed/adjusted. For them it is perfect and why would they want another faith?

the belief system and tradition is far from perfect, shaped as it has been by humans; i think the question is rather who has the authority to change and transform things - i would say that that has to come from within, rather than from someone from the outside saying that we need to change.

seattlegal: but wouldn't it nice if i, as a jew, was actually allowed to *visit* saudi arabia? i am not. my sacred texts are not permitted to be taken into that country. this king abdullah needs to learn some pretty basic things about tolerance.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Bishadi]

really? why don't you enlighten me then, o all-wise one?

OPened a new thread for you on Israel.

Maybe you should get the salt and pepper for your foot.

olive tree? what on earth are you on about?

maybe read a bit first

The children of Israel were a tree planted by God:

Psalm 44:1 We have heard with our ears, O God, Our fathers
have told us, The deeds You did in their days,
In days of old:
:2 You drove out the nations with Your hand, But
them You planted; You afflicted the peoples,
and cast them out.
:3 For they did not gain possession of the land by
their own sword, Nor did their own arm save them;
But it was Your right hand, Your arm, and the
light of Your countenance, Because You favored them.

80:8 You have brought a vine out of Egypt; You have
cast out the nations, and planted it.
:9 You prepared room for it, And caused it to take
deep root, And it filled the land.
:10 The hills were covered with its shadow, And the
mighty cedars with its boughs.
:11 She sent out her boughs to the Sea, And her
branches to the River.

Jer 11:16 The LORD called your name, Green Olive Tree,
Lovely and of Good Fruit. With the noise of a
great tumult He has kindled fire on it, and
its branches are broken.
:17 For the LORD of hosts, who planted you, has
pronounced doom against you for the evil of
the house of Israel and of the house of Judah,
which they have done against themselves to
provoke Me to anger in offering incense to Baal.



Isa 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod (or shoot) from the
stem (or trunk) of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.

Jer 23:5 "Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD,
"That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment
and righteousness in the earth."

Zec 3:8 ... For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the
Branch.

Zec 6:12 ... "Behold, the Man whose name is the Branch!
From His place He shall branch out, And He shall
build the temple of the LORD;

only if you understand the most basic issues of time-lag in social provision. these guys were originally german citizens, right? they're entitled to reclaim their german citizenship, right?

and then tell the people of Israel, they must return the homes back to the children of Palestine and pay retribution for killing their fathers, their brother, and oppressing these people further in the concentration camps (Gaza)...

it seems banana, you must be a youngster and not aware of much on the Israel subject....

 

[bananabrain]

The children of Israel were a tree planted by G!D:

ok, but what you're doing is taking a bunch of quotes out of context all of which a) refer to different situations and b) refer to different trees. not every mention of vegetation in the bible refers to the jewish people as a whole and certainly it is questionable how much or if at all the modern state of israel is a concern of biblical prophecy. and, even so, all we have here is a metaphor of israel (and i don't think you understand the difference between the word "israel" in the bible - which the prophecies refer to - and the modern state of israel, which is a pretty large difference) as a tree. but, so what? it has roots? it has branches? it has shade? it is well-watered? what next? are you going to try and tell me the bible talks about woodworm or dutch elm disease? i think you're being a little too literal here.

and then tell the people of Israel, they must return the homes back to the children of Palestine and pay retribution for killing their fathers, their brother, and oppressing these people further in the concentration camps (Gaza)...

i don't think you know what the concentration camps meant if you throw the term around so glibly. as i have said many times, the israelis are not nazis. if you start using nazi terminology to describe them, we are going to have some serious words. there is no genocidal intent. there are no gas chambers. there are no selections. there are no arm tattoos. there are no mass executions with naked bodies thrown into pits. there are no medical torture experiments. you seem very keen to accuse me of not knowing any history - well, i am closer to this than you are and if you think that throwing the phrase "concentration camp" at me as if it is a reasonable response, you are very sadly mistaken. as for retribution - the palestinians are, as i have already said, entitled to compensation, just as the jewish refugees from the muslim world, who are numerically equivalent to the palestinian refugees, are entitled to compensation from the regimes that stole their assets. do you support the return of jewish assets in iraq, syria, lebanon, iran, libya, algeria and egypt? if not, then don't even start with me about the palestinian refugees, because you're only looking at half the picture. but perhaps we should take that to the thread you've so obligingly started. or perhaps i should refer you to the other thousand times this has been discussed, i do get bored going over the same thing again and again.

it seems banana, you must be a youngster and not aware of much on the Israel subject....

what a ridiculous statement. i have already told you not to patronise me; i am not the one making sweeping generalisations with nothing to back it up. continue like this and the moderators are likely to get involved.

b'shalom

bananabrain