Do these commands.....

I love how we are so quick to determin the intelligence of creatures we do not fully know/understand....

Live Animal Exports :: The truth about sheep

Specially with wolves... "The big bad wolf" image gets old..... That has played a major role in why the wolf the first dog... Is now endangered... "zomg I took more and more land... I forced my way into the territory of wolves and scared/killed/hunted their prey! And now they come after my herd animals!! How evil!" I best kill um...
 
path_of_one said:
But what I'm saying, mee, is that to say that sheep listen to the shepherd's voice is to totally ignore that sheep do not actually do this. This is why there are sheep dogs, and why shepherds throw rocks at their sheep to turn the flock.

Acting like it is all nice-nice and that the sheep listen is ignoring how sheep actually behave. I've been out in the field with shepherds and watched them tend flocks. There is a reason they have dogs...

This is why I'm pondering what the metaphor means. Because for anyone who actually works sheep, it seems inept. Sheep are far less likely to follow you at your call then, say, a dog or a horse.
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It would be interesting to find out how the shepherds worked in the days of Jesus, and did they have dogs the same as now.

but as far as i can see the sheep really did listen to the shepherds voice.


The Land and the Book, revised by J. Grande, 1910, p. 179 ,speaks of shepherds and their flocks.

this is what W.M Thomson wrote.


From personal observations in Syria and Palestine in the nineteenth century, W. M. Thomson wrote: "[The sheep] are so tame and so trained that they follow their keeper with the utmost docility.

He leads them forth from the fold, or from their houses in the villages, just where he pleases.
As there are many flocks in such a place as this, each one takes a different path, and it is his business to find pasture for them.
It is necessary, therefore, that they should be taught to follow, and not to stray away into the unfenced fields of corn which lie so temptingly on either side.
Any one that thus wanders is sure to get into trouble.
The shepherd calls sharply from time to time to remind them of his presence.
They know his voice, and follow on ,but if a stranger call, they stop short, lift up their heads in alarm, and, if it is repeated, they turn and flee, because they know not the voice of a stranger.
This is not the fanciful costume of a parable; it is simple fact.
I have made the experiment repeatedly. The shepherd goes before, not merely to point out the way but to see that it is practicable and safe.



Do sheep really know the voice of their particular shepherd?



The flocks of several shepherds were sometimes penned in the same sheepfold for the night, with a doorkeeper to watch over them.




When the shepherds arrived in the morning, they called to their flock, and the sheep responded to their shepherd and to him only. Walking ahead of the flock, the shepherd led it to pasture. (Joh 10:1-5)




Similarly, J. L. Porter, in The Giant Cities of Bashan and Syria’s Holy Places, observes:

"The shepherds led their flocks forth from the gates of the city. They were in full view, and we watched them and listened to them with no little interest. Thousands of sheep and goats were there, grouped in dense, confused masses.
The shepherds stood together until all came out.
Then they separated, each shepherd taking a different path, and uttering as he advanced a shrill peculiar call.
The sheep heard them. At first the masses swayed and moved, as if shaken by some internal convulsion; then points struck out in the direction taken by the shepherds; these became longer and longer until the confused masses were resolved into long, living streams, flowing after their leaders."—1868, p. 45.


 
Hey Alex, that was a cool sheep link.
Sheep have developed complex physiological ways to disguise pain and discomfort.

New studies have revealed that sheep can remember up to 50 sheep faces as well as familiar human faces, such as their carer.

An amazing story emerged from England in 2004, when locals reported that they had been outsmarted by local sheep, who were escaping their paddocks by rolling over cattle grids!
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Alex P said:
What work do sheep actually do? I am curious... The only one working is the shepherd..... Struggling and striving to get sheep from A to B Most of the time the sheep prefer to be going A to C..
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That's what Mutton Jeff the sheep dog is for...near as I can tell the sheep dog is the only one *really* doing any work.
 
Yeah that is how I understand it too, the shpher uses as many methos/tactics as he can to move the animals from where they are to where -he- wants them to be....

I do not see Sheep as a "working animal" I don't actually see any herd animal as a work animal.. (well cept horses... And are camels a herd animal?) But perhaps mee knows something? So curious to see If I have missed something.
 
I'd be very curious to know how shepherds in other areas tend flocks as well. It's not that I don't think sheep could recognize voices, but rather that I've never heard of sheep that listen to and respond to commands.

Dogs do, horses do, I've had cats that do... Cows/oxen do but seem fairly limited...

I mean, it is one thing for the flock to hear the voice of the shepherd and go "Oh, it's this dude that's been with us for 3 years, he's all right." It's another for the shepherd to say "Turn left!" and for sheep to obey.

If the commands have naught to do with obedience, then what does it mean to listen to the shepherd's voice?

As far as I've seen when I've watched shepherds, they walk around and direct the dogs, and the dogs intimidate the sheep into where they should go, capitalizing on the sheep's flocking instinct (which is notably stronger than cows, who tend to think up interesting ways of escaping the group more frequently). The other tactic is to throw rocks on the edge of the flock where you don't want the sheep to go, so they will scatter as a group in the opposite direction. I have personally never seen a shepherd go "Stop!" and the sheep stop or "Left!" and the sheep go left, like cattle and horses will with repetition.

So... I guess unless/until I get more information on sheepherding cross-culturally, the jury is out for me.
 
Alex P said:
What work do sheep actually do? I am curious...quote]
Jesus sheep listen to Jesus voice, and Jesus said GO matthew 28;19-20

ok then , on with the work he left .
and no straying along the way it will only end in tears, when we lose sight of that great crowd revelation 7;9-10 and the faithful ones matthew 24;45-47 . we can get lost and hungry and can even end up eating food that is no good at all.
its best to keep our focus and not get lost.

:) there is lots of work to be getting along with.

and helping christs brothers is the thing to be doing
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juantoo3 said:
That's what Mutton Jeff the sheep dog is for...near as I can tell the sheep dog is the only one *really* doing any work.
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its good to have helpers putting them sheep in the right direction.:) it makes it easier
 
Alex P said:
I do not see Sheep as a "working animal" quote]



domestic sheep are helpless and fearful. They get lost and scattered and are at the complete mercy of their enemies.
(Nu 27:16, 17; Jer 23:4; Eze 34:5, 6, 8; Mic 5:8)

What would the shepherd do if he had a 100 sheep then he found that the one sheep was missing?

Would he say that this was all the sheep’s fault anyway so he wasn’t going to worry about it?

Or would he leave the 99 sheep in a safe place and go looking for just the one? Would one sheep be worth that much trouble?— If you were that lost sheep, would you want the shepherd to look for you?


A shepherd uses his rod or his staff to protect the sheep from animals that might harm them. The Bible tells about how the young shepherd David protected his sheep from a lion and a bear.
(1 Samuel
17:34-36)


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mee said:
and no straying along the way it will only end in tears, when we lose sight of that great crowd revelation 7;9-10 and the faithful ones matthew 24;45-47 . we can get lost and hungry and can even end up eating food that is no good at all.
its best to keep our focus and not get lost.

:) there is lots of work to be getting along with.

and helping christs brothers is the thing to be doing
Click to expand...

But without a shpherd a sheep will be a sheep and do what it pleases lol... It couldn't care less wht the shepherd wants or thinks, it will only "follow" the shepherds directions when forced or the shepherds presences is there..... So I would expect from sheep plenty of straying.

Lots of work to be geting along with? Then you're not a sheep :P
 
Alex P said:
But without a shpherd a sheep will be a sheep and do what it pleases lol... It couldn't care less wht the shepherd wants or thinks, it will only "follow" the shepherds directions when forced or the shepherds presences is there..... So I would expect from sheep plenty of straying.

Lots of work to be geting along with? Then you're not a sheep :P
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Easy Alex. A good shepard goes and finds the wayward sheep, breaks it's leg then carries it around his shoulders, while it heals and gets used to the shepard's scent and calmness, while he tends the rest of the flock. Then once healed, the "wayward" sheep stays closest to the shepard, of all the sheep...

But, even the shepard knows when to be violent, for the greater good of the one, and the all.
 
It makes an interesting bible story... But, try that act of violence to a sheep in the real world... See what happens when the sheep has heeled..... The shpherd thinks he is doing good.... But he isn't... This is the problem we have when we attempt to compare the animal... Man to other animals... We are the majority of the time nothing like the rest of the animal world.... The shepherd doesn't know best at all.. If he knew best... He would allow the animal to be free... Causing violence on a creature that was born to be free and to live how it is meant to live.... Is a stupid and common mistake made by man. To think we know all there is to know, and to believe we know what is best for others.... When we do not even know what is best for ourselves.... You cannot humanise animals... lol It isn't their true being.... They are pure and attempting to bend them from their natrual ways is cruel.... So cpmparing humans to sheep or bad people to wolves... Or evil to snakes.... It just isn't accurate...... Speaking of snakes....

An indian man was telling a story of this lady, she was walking in the wilds one cold white winter... And she came across a rattle snake... It was slowly dying/freezing in the snow and ice... She took this snake and for months she healed it back to health...... Then one day it turned around and with his venomus(sp?) bite he lunged and striked... It was a fatal blow to the main artery in her arm...

She confused by the snakes actions asked the snake..... Why? Why did you bite me? After all I had done for you??? The snake replied.... "because I am a snake....."


--Edit--
Just to help you all understand... I am not saying once you have saved the sheep it will bite you lol... But it will go back to being what it is... A sheep.... This idea of compassion and mercy... That is a human thing, it isn't welcome nor cared for in the animal world... We are the only animal that accepts weakness....... An animal isn't thankful... It lives in the moment... Sure you saved the animal... But that is now past... Only the moment now matters....

And we, Mighty man, believe we our the teachers... Yet this is a major lesson... I think which would improve man... I am not saying go off the weak... I mean not living with dwelling thoughts of past... Worries or pains or problems.... Live for NOW... Now is important... Do not threat on the past... And the other animals teach us also not to dwell on future... That is uncontrolable... So don't fear that which has passed and do not let it control you nor let your mind cloud you with what might happen just do what you can now. The sheep can teach the sheperd... He is just to arrogant or filled with illusions of greatness to see it...

I'll leave this post with a wise old Chinese proverb... Which is the wisest of animals? The creature that is not known to man.
 
Alex P said:
It makes an interesting bible story... But, try that act of violence to a sheep in the real world... See what happens when the sheep has heeled..... The shpherd thinks he is doing good.... But he isn't... This is the problem we have when we attempt to compare the animal... Man to other animals... We are the majority of the time nothing like the rest of the animal world.... The shepherd doesn't know best at all.. If he knew best... He would allow the animal to be free... Causing violence on a creature that was born to be free and to live how it is meant to live.... Is a stupid and common mistake made by man. To think we know all there is to know, and to believe we know what is best for others.... When we do not even know what is best for ourselves.... You cannot humanise animals... lol It isn't their true being.... They are pure and attempting to bend them from their natrual ways is cruel.... So cpmparing humans to sheep or bad people to wolves... Or evil to snakes.... It just isn't accurate...... Speaking of snakes....

An indian man was telling a story of this lady, she was walking in the wilds one cold white winter... And she came across a rattle snake... It was slowly dying/freezing in the snow and ice... She took this snake and for months she healed it back to health...... Then one day it turned around and with his venomus(sp?) bite he lunged and striked... It was a fatal blow to the main artery in her arm...

She confused by the snakes actions asked the snake..... Why? Why did you bite me? After all I had done for you??? The snake replied.... "because I am a snake....."


--Edit--
Just to help you all understand... I am not saying once you have saved the sheep it will bite you lol... But it will go back to being what it is... A sheep.... This idea of compassion and mercy... That is a human thing, it isn't welcome nor cared for in the animal world... We are the only animal that accepts weakness....... An animal isn't thankful... It lives in the moment... Sure you saved the animal... But that is now past... Only the moment now matters....

And we, Mighty man, believe we our the teachers... Yet this is a major lesson... I think which would improve man... I am not saying go off the weak... I mean not living with dwelling thoughts of past... Worries or pains or problems.... Live for NOW... Now is important... Do not threat on the past... And the other animals teach us also not to dwell on future... That is uncontrolable... So don't fear that which has passed and do not let it control you nor let your mind cloud you with what might happen just do what you can now. The sheep can teach the sheperd... He is just to arrogant or filled with illusions of greatness to see it...

I'll leave this post with a wise old Chinese proverb... Which is the wisest of animals? The creature that is not known to man.
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In reality Alex, that procedure is still used today...and quite effective, both on sheep (literally) and on man (figuratively).

When my sons needed disciplining, I did it, then held them close and cried with them. They never feared me, and they didn't often make the same mistake twice...

v/r

Q
 
Alex P said:
Lots of work to be geting along with? Then you're not a sheep :P
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mee likes to listen to the shepherds voice (Jesus):) mee likes being a led sheep , and mee likes to have food from the shepherd . and most of all mee likes doing what the shepherd asks.

thats why mee likes being with the LITTLEFLOCK of 144,000 ,And the numberless GREAT CROWD ,And it is good that the 2 flocks have the same shepherd to lead them.

and all of those sheep are in perfect unity and purpose doing the will of GOD.


mee likes being and working along with the 2 flocks of sheep .



but the goats want to do things their way.:( mee likes to do things the way a sheep does things , and it is protection indeed.

mee has a really loving and tender shepherd and it is very good , especially when making known GOODNEWS

MATTHEW 24;14 daniel 2;44 matthew 28;19-20 mee likes to GO with Jesus sheep
 
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