Hell: Another man make doctrine.

[Thomas]

Hi Darren —

I agree that some denominations seem to hold and became fixed in a rather medieval and fatalistic view about the Christian message, as if all Christ brought was in fact "Bad news"!

The pre-Reformation churches, for the most part, continue in a more optimistic light to explore and 'unpack' the positive and life-affirming view. I'll note some of the differences with regard to Catholic doctrine.

Has anybody notice that in the O.T. of the Bible there is hardly a mention if any of the word hell

That's because of most good translations keep the original term sheol, whilst in the New Testament Jesus used a different descriptive term, gehenna.

The Greek idea of hades continues to inform much thinking, as all three terms are translated as hell in the English language, and thus the error of assuming the definitions of the three terms are synonymous.

The term 'sheol' refers to the abode of the dead, indeed it can simply mean 'grave'. As I understand it, Hebrew scriptures do not contain much explicit eschatalogical speculation. The dead might be considered asleep, their lives suspended, until the end of the world. There is little indication of any order of consciousness, or continuance of being in the existential sense. The Psalms contain a few, and in the later Wisdom Literature there begin to emerge signs of speculation on the afterlife.

Christ, on the other hand, spoke directly on the matter, and more than once. Jesus spoke more of the afterlife, and immediately divided it into two camps, those who accept the message of salvation, and those who do not. The most frequent references occur in Matthew, which was written for a primarily Jewish-convert audience to show the continuity of Scripture in His own message:
Matthew 5:22
"But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire (lit. fires of gehenna).
5:29-30
"If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell."
Mat 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.'

All the above are taken from the Sermon on the Mount, and offer a contrary but perhaps more immediately graspable picture to the more challenging Beatitude of the Blessed. Jesus uses this startling imagery to actualise in the minds of his audience the immediacy and reality of the offer of Salvation. Note He uses the Decalogue, the heart of the Law, as His 'benchmark', and demands more than the Law itself requires when He says "But I say unto you... "

Gehenna is, in a very real way, more terrifying than Hades. The latter is still a world (the netherworld), a stage on which man can act, to seek the light, his salvation. Gehenna, on the other hand, is the place of the abandoned, of that which has no more a place in any world.

Geographically, Gehenna was a ravine outside Jerusalem, unclean ground, being the site of cultic human sacrifice to a false god, and in Jesus' time the worst kind of rubbish tip.

The idea of the 'living soul' being consigned to such a place until the end of time was hardly eddifying.

being a place where God will condemn billions of His creation to be torture with fire for all eternity, forever and ever??

Well three points:
The first is that this world is bound in time, so we cannot transpose our common notion of 'forever and ever' into the Eternal. There is no time in eternity — there is no 'forever and ever'. Eternity is neither a millenia nor a moment ... it is perfect Rest ('movement' requires space and time — a passage from a to b, and the experience of the difference between them).

The second is the assumption of how many will suffer. Scripture says that any man who seeks the good with an honest heart will be saved, and God is All-Merciful ... not unless we can fathom the depths of God can we say how many will be saved. Certainly some, perhaps all.

The third is the idea of 'torture'. It is axiomatic that God does not will suffering needlessly, nor for His own good or gratification. If the dead can no longer change, there is no value or benefit to be derived from suffering ... so it is not the will of God.

The Christian believed, however, that the soul is 'fixed' in death as the summation of its earthly life. If open towards the Eternal, then it is still open to God in death and can, after a purgation of imperfection, be restored in its original condition it is perfected and saved.

This intermediate state is called Purgatory, precisely because it involves a purgation of imperfection. It is not yet in God, because all that is in God is perfect, yet it is not of this or any other world.

It is not in time, as we know it, nor outside of time, in Eternity (which is the perfect rest of the blessed). The schoolmen called it the aevum. It is like time but no space, duration but no movement. Being but no change.

We can say the aevum lasts longer than the world, and we can also say the experience of the aevum lasts less than an instant. St Paul talks of us being changed 'in a twinkling' — so that might well be our experience of the aevum.

Traditional thinking treats the Judgement as a face-to-face meeting with Christ. In that moment we are revealed to ourselves, by Him, as we really are, a facing up to the inescapable truth of oneself, this necessarily involves a realisation of the wrong we have done, and an 'owning up' to sin, and a repentance. The 'heat' of this process might be likened to acute embarrasment rather than any pain suffered by some cauterising flame.

After the embarrasment ... eternal peace.

If directed in life towards selfishly seeking its own good however, then the soul continues to look to itself in death — in the interview the soul sees itself and turns its face from the Word of Salvation reaching out from God. It refuses to admit, or repent. God is denied.

Whether we are open or closed in the next life is determined by the decisions we make in this one. In purgatory the soul is restored, it is not changed, but the dross is stripped away ... unless it denies restoration, in which case it continues in its wounded state.

For the selfish soul there is no peace in this life, we pursue the chimeras that offer us immediate gratification, always temporary and ephemeral, always leaving us unsatiated in our desires and hungry for more.

In death too, in the aevum, for such souls there is no peace, no rest, because there is none to be found in what the soul seeks ... just an eternity, fixed and seemingly forever, of seeking, of a hunger that can never be appeased.

+++

It is the Father's will that none be lost. The sacrifice of His only Son, for us, is a sign of the depths of His compassion and love. The Holy Spirit works tirelessly, in the face of our own resistance, to bring us to that good end.

A prophet said:
"Ah, good Lord, how could all things be well, because of the great
harm which has come through sin to your creatures?"
This was God's response to her:
"And so our good Lord answered
all the questions and doubts which I could raise,
saying most comfortingly:
'I make all things well,
and I can make all things well,
and I shall make all things well,
and I will make all things well;
and you will see for yourself
that every kind of thing will be well.'
... And in these words God wishes us
to be enclosed in rest and peace."
Julian of Norwich.

Not one soul will be lost, that has not chosen to be lost.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Hi Nick —

You have told me on more than one occasion that your religion does not allow you to insult another ... yet, perhaps unwittingly, you do so repeatedly. If I might bring this to your attention?

I find it makes absolute, perfect, logical sense, unlike many parts of the Bible. I cannot find any flaws in this philosophy whatsoever.

The inference here is that the Bible does not make "absolute, perfect, logical sense" which might infer that which many hold as an inspired text is defective, and that good sense is defective in those who follow its teaching. That's quite insulting.

After all, you have inferred the same of me, and been quick to voice your grievance at the offence.

You have furthermore insisted that your own perceptions of a text is sufficient for its clear and unambiguous understanding and you don't need anyone to tell you otherwise — which is tantamount to claiming infallibility. Elsewhere you say that we should not take an inspired text at face value but seek explanation. That seems most illogical to me, a contradiction explained only by a certain partisanship.

+++

“Recall also the story of Tityus ... the story of Sisyphus.

Both these myths can be explained, as you say:

In his case also death brings no change. He goes on making plans just as he did during life.

This is in fact very close to the Christian position. The only proviso is rather than 'go on making plans' he is fixed, as it were, as a plan-maker and must suffer the internal condition of an unsatisfied soul — there is no need of external act.

Dante, in his circles of hell, makes great use of this idea of being tormented in death by being locked into the illusions and falsehoods we held in life.

Man does suffer, but what he suffers is only the effect of his own action and nothing else; it is not punishment inflicted upon him from outside, but entirely of his own making.

Again, proximate to the Christian position.

The suffering he has to bear is the only means by which his qualities can be directed in the right way for his evolution and progress in another life.

This indicates change ... which we hold (and you seem to imply above) does not happen in the intermediate state, outside of the Perfect. We teach rather that there is no change, but that the soul can be refined — it remains who it is according to its original foundation, but the dross is washed away.

I agree with the idea that Hell is a place geographically below the surface of the Earth:

The Abrahamic Traditions don't, so not sure who you're agreeing with?

People of the lower astral sub-planes (Hell), then, generally reside below the surface of the Earth. This explains the orthodox religious teaching of Hell being below us (and Heaven being above). (As parts of the Earth are of great heat and pressure, this is also a connection to the idea of Hell as a hot place.)

Frankly, I think I can fairly say that if one knew the orthodox teachings, one would appreciate this relies too immediately on the 'letter' of the metaphor and falls far, far short of the 'spirit' of the teaching.

When they are ready, most people then return to Earth for more 'training' and reincarnate into a new human body.

Oh dear, not Abrahamic at all.

There is nothing physical about the afterlife. Physical bodies cannot exist on the astral plane.

So why a physical location for hell?

The higher levels of Heaven are different, in that we create our own illusion of Heaven, and create our illusions of our loved-ones in that Heaven.

Oh dear ... faith in illusions now?

The Abrahamic idea is truth only ... not illusion.

We already ARE spirit. (Even the Bible says that.) We use physical bodies only because we are at too low a level of maturity. Once we rise to a high enough level of spirituality, we will discard physical bodies forever, because we will no longer need them. This is what the Bible teaches, although it does it in a convoluted way.

No it does not ... I can see why you find it illogical, etc.

This is a dualistic notion of spirit and body ... totally non-Abrahamic, which sees the body/soul as an holistic entity.

Nick, in all honesty, whilst your philosophy might adequately explain your own paradigmatic vision — it gets itself into all manner of a mess when it tries to explain the Bible. You just cannot simply just bolt the Bible on as an adjuct of your own position ... it just doesn't work, as I have shown above, you end up making statements that are simply, and simple to demonstrate, not the case ... that's not what we say, nor what we believe.

As I have stated before, I have no problem with people telling me what they believe, but I do have issues with people telling me what I believe, which is what you're doing when you offer commentary on the Bible, and when you get it completely wrong, I think I am on safe ground, without offering offence, in pointing the error out.

Thomas

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas,

You said,

"...your religion does not allow you to insult another ... yet, perhaps unwittingly, you do so repeatedly. ...The inference here is that the Bible does not make 'absolute, perfect, logical sense' "

--> Allow me to explain the difference. The Bible does not make sense. That is an opinon. You say it makes sense, I say it does not, and we can agree to disagree. Another example is that I believe that reincarnation makes sense, you do not, and I do not have a problem with you thinking so at all. This is the way it goes in open, positive interreligious discussions, and it is a healthy, open exchange of ideas.

"...which might infer that which many hold as an inspired text is defective, and that good sense is defective in those who follow its teaching."

--> To make this second inference is easy to do. But the difference between making such inference, and coming right out and saying it, is the crucial difference.

I have come out and said your beliefs do not make sense, which I am only too happy to do. I have not come out and said your beliefs are defective, nor have I said the way you think is defective. Thus, you have suffered no insult.

Now, of course, some members of this Forum will read what I write, see how your ideas do not make sense, and then deduce that your beliefs are defective, and that the way you think is defective, but that is just the way it goes.

Feel free to show how my ideas do not make sense. I look forward to it.

 

[dailogue is the best]

What do you believe the after life will consist of. Will we be physical or spirit. will we know our family member or not? will we just hang around with harps and flying around in outer space or be here on earth? What is your take on this matter??

I dont know if I am welcomed here or not. I would like to share with you the hereafter according to an Islamic view. I will mainly depend on Quranic verses, and the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)'s sayings:

What is there in Paradise?

“... there will be there all that the souls could desire, all that the eyes could delight in …” (Quran 43:71)

“Eat and drink at ease for that which you have sent forth (good deeds) in days past!” (Quran 69:24)

“… They will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade. They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good [is] the recompense! How beautiful a couch [is there] to recline on!” (Quran 18:31)

“They will never fall ill, blow their noses or spit.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

Indeed may you be healthy and never be sick again, may you live and never die again, may you be young and never grow feeble again, may you enjoy, and never feel sorrow and regret again.” (Saheeh Muslim)

They will not hear therein ill speech or commission of sin. But only the saying of: Peace! Peace!” (Quran 56:25-26)

“And We shall remove from their breasts any (mutual) hatred or sense of injury (which they had, if at all, in the life of this world)…” (Quran 7:43)

“There will be no hatred or resentment among them, their hearts will be as one, and they will glorify God, morning and evening.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

And whoever obeys God and the Messenger – those will be with the ones upon whom God has bestowed favor – of the prophets, the steadfast affirmers of truth, the martyrs and the righteous. And excellent are those as companions!” (Quran 4:69)

“Crystal-white, delicious to those who drink (thereof), free from intoxication, nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom” (Quran 37:46-47)

“...rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes...” (Quran 47:15)

“...and they shall have therein purified mates…” (Quran 2:25)

“No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy, as a reward for what they used to do.” (Quran 32:17)

 

[winner08]

If one really reads and understand Jesus's teachings when He was speaking to the Scribs and the Pharrsies He insulted the hell out of them. Called the names. If you don;t believe me just go back and read the gospels. Evil doers, vipers, hypicrites, fools. Racca you fools. Just to name o few. Jessus was not doubt passionate when talking about His &Our Father. So let's not try to take this too personal. Saying that, I must say repeated attacks on one credibilty and being talked down or rude to does start to hurt. I know. there are some here that do it to me. It sucks.

 

[winner08]

Darren,

You asked,

"Nick a few questions how did you come to this? I mean come to this way of belief."

--> I encountered this pilosophy many years ago. I like it because it makes sense to me. I find it makes absolute, perfect, logical sense, unlike many parts of the Bible. I cannot find any flaws in this philosophy whatsoever.

"What do you believe the after life will consist of."

--> I will take a very complicated topic, and try to give a very simple answer. After death, everyone becomes conscious on the astral plane. There are different levels on the astral plane. People who did very bad things in life will become conscious on a low, terrible astral plane. (This is the Hell that all major relgions talk about.)

“Recall also the story of Tityus, the man who was tied to a rock, his liver being gnawed by vultures, and growing again as fast as it was eaten. There you have an illustration of the effect of yielding to desire: an image of the man who is always tortured by remorse for sins committed on earth.

“As perhaps a higher example of the same we can take the story of Sisyphus. You know how he was condemned always to roll a stone up a hill, and how, when he reached the top, the stone would always roll down again. That is the condition of an ambitious man after death, a man who has spent his life in making plans for selfish ends, for attaining glory or honor. In his case also death brings no change. He goes on making plans just as he did during life. He works out his plans, he executes them, as he thinks, till the point of culmination, and then he suddenly perceives that he has no longer a physical body, and that all was but a dream. Then be begins again and again, till he has learned at last that these desires are useless and that ambition must be killed. So Sisyphus goes on uselessly rolling the stone up the hill, till at last he learns not to roll it any more. To have learned that is to have conquered that desire, and he will come back in his next life without it; without the desire, but of course not without the weakness of character which made that desire possible.

“So you see that conditions that seem terrible are but the effects in the other world of a wrong life here on earth. That is nature's method of turning wrong into good. Man does suffer, but what he suffers is only the effect of his own action and nothing else; it is not punishment inflicted upon him from outside, but entirely of his own making. And that is not all. The suffering he has to bear is the only means by which his qualities can be directed in the right way for his evolution and progress in another life. This was a point much emphasized in the teaching of the mysteries.” (Charles Leadbeater, The Inner Life, pages 57-58)

Average people will become conscious on the middle levels of the astral plane, and very good people with become conscious on the highest astral plane "Seventh Heaven").

I agree with the idea that Hell is a place geographically below the surface of the Earth: “People find their own level on the astral plane, much in the same way as objects floating in the ocean do. This does not mean that they cannot rise and fall at will, but that if no special effort is made they come to their level and remain there. Astral matter gravitates towards the center of the earth just as physical matter does; both obey the same general laws.” (Charles Leadbeater, The Inner Life, page 156)

People of the lower astral sub-planes (Hell), then, generally reside below the surface of the Earth. This explains the orthodox religious teaching of Hell being below us (and Heaven being above). (As parts of the Earth are of great heat and pressure, this is also a connection to the idea of Hell as a hot place.)

The value of this belief is that people burn off bad 'vibrations' and then slowly move up to higher levels of the astral plane.

When they are ready, most people then return to Earth for more 'training' and reincarnate into a new human body. When they are ready to move up to the next level, they can enter Nirvana. (I believe in both Heaven and Nirvana, and I see no conflict between the two concepts.)

As I said, this is a very complicated topic. I hope this very short explanation helps.

"Will we be physical or spirit."

--> Spirit. There is nothing physical about the afterlife. Physical bodies cannot exist on the astral plane.

"...will we know our family member or not?"

--> Again, here is a simple answer to a complicated topic. Immediately after death, we are still here, we just do not have a physical body any more. As such, we can still 'see' people here on Earth, and we can talk to them every night when our still-alive relatives do astral traveling. (Everyone does astral traveling at night, while they are asleep.) The higher levels of Heaven are different, in that we create our own illusion of Heaven, and create our illusions of our loved-ones in that Heaven.

"I do however believe in the lake of fire where the non-elect will be purged of their carnality...."

--> You have described the non-physical astral plane perfectly. Imagine, if you will, people who die. They still have all of their desires, their addictions, their anger, etc. (People seem to think things like alcohol and tobacco addictions disappear as soon as they die -- they do not, why should they?) Also, it is said that these desires are much stronger on the astral plane than they were on the physical plane. Also, people who did bad things like murder and rape will feel the pain that they caused. It will be just as bad as the 'lake of fire' that you describe, although it will not be a punishment from any God, it will be a world that we ourselves have created, with nobody to blame but ourselves.

"...we will be fired just as clay is to remove the impurities."

--> ...and the place where this happens is Hell. You describe the very place you do not believe in.

This 'firing' is exactly what happens on the lower astral planes after death. Impurities are burned out, although they are emotions, not physical things. As lower forms of emotional impurities are burned off, we 'float' up to higher levels. This also explains the idea of Purgatory, which to me is a real place, and makes just as much sense as Heaven and Hell.

"I think it will be a terrifing experience."

--> I understand that, for most people, the time between reincarnations is a fairly nice experience. (Most people are not murderers, etc.)

"...in order for us to be in God's kingdom we must first be changed from flesh and blood to spirit."

--> We already ARE spirit. (Even the Bible says that.) We use physical bodies only because we are at too low a level of maturity. Once we rise to a high enough level of spirituality, we will discard physical bodies forever, because we will no longer need them. This is what the Bible teaches, although it does it in a convoluted way.

"Then and only then will [we] be in the image of God and be part of His family."

--> I disagree. I believe there are many, many levels between Earth and the Absolute. Moving up to Nirvana will be only moving up one level.

"...a god sending his creation to a hell to be torture and tormented for all enterity."

--> This, of course, does not make any sense at all.

Nick I might and probable are mistakeing but it sounds like Hinduisim or Buddism. Atroplans and 7 heavens andthing on this nature. What's your take?

 

[dailogue is the best]

How can we get saved from the hell?

“O you who believe, save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is men and stones over which are (appointed) angels, stern and severe, who flinch not (from executing) the commands they receive from God, but do (precisely what) they are commanded.” (Quran 66:6)

What would be the status of those in hell?

“And those in the Fire will say to the Guards of Hell, ‘Call upon your Lord to lighten for us the torment for a day!’” (Quran 40:49)

“One of the people of Hell who found most pleasure in the life of this world will be brought forth on the Day of Resurrection and will be dipped into the Fire of Hell. Then he will be asked, ‘O son of Adam, have you ever seen anything good?’ Have you ever enjoyed any pleasure?’ He will say, ‘No, by God, O Lord.” (the prophet's saying)

“On the Day of Resurrection, God will ask the one whose punishment in the Fire is lightest, ‘If you had whatsoever you wanted on earth, would you give it to save yourself?’ He will say, ‘Yes.’ God will say, ‘I wanted less than that from you when you were still in the loins of Adam, I asked you not to associate anything in worship with Me, but you insisted on associating others in worship with Me.’ (the prophet's saying)

“And they will feel regret when they see the punishment; and they will be judged in justice, and they will not be wronged.” (Quran 10:54)

“The criminal will wish that he could be ransomed from the punishment of that Day by his children, and his wife and his brother, and his nearest kindred who shelter him, and all – all that is on earth – so it could save him. No! Indeed, it is the Flame (of Hell), plucking out (his being) tight to the skull!” (Quran 70:11-16)


“Surely, the disbelievers will be in the torment of Hell to abide therein forever. (The torment) will not be lightened for them, and they will be plunged into destruction with deep regrets, sorrows and in despair therein. We wronged them not, but they were the wrongdoers. And they will cry: ‘O Malik! Let your Lord make an end of us’ He will say: ‘Surely, you shall abide forever.’ Indeed We have brought the truth to you, but most of you have a hatred for the truth” (Quran 43:74-78)

“Those who have disbelieved and died in disbelief, the earth full of gold would not be accepted from any of them if one offered it as a ransom. They will have a painful punishment, and they will have no helpers.” (Quran 3:91)

“If you could but see when they are set before the Fire (Hell) and say, “Would that we might return (to the world)! Then we would not reject the verses of our Lord, but we would be of the believers!” (Quran 6:27)

When do we know that we are saved or not?

“When any of you dies, he is shown his position (in the Hereafter) morning and evening. If he is one of the people of Paradise, he is shown the place of the people of Paradise. If he is one of the people of Hell, he is shown the place of people of Hell. He is told, ‘this is your position, until God resurrects you on the Day of Resurrection.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Saheeh Muslim)

“Surely, the soul of a believer is a bird hanging on the trees of Paradise, until God returns it to his body on the Day of Resurrection.” (Muwatta of Malik)


Is hell eternal?

“They will long to leave the Fire, but never will they leave there from; and theirs will be a lasting torment.” (Quran 5:37)

“…And they will never leave of the Fire.” (Quran 2:167)

“Surely, those who disbelieve and did wrong; God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way except the way of Hell, to dwell therein forever.” (Quran 4:168-169)

“Surely, God has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire wherein they will abide for ever.” (Quran 33:64)

“And whosoever disobeys God and His Messenger, then surely, for him is the fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever.” (Quran 72:23)

What is the hell like?

“On the Day when We will say to Hell: ‘Are you filled?’ It will say, ‘Are there any more (to come)?’” (Quran 50:30)

“Surely, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths (grade) of the Fire.” (Quran 4:145)

“For all will be (ranked) by degrees according to what they did.” (Quran 6:132)

“Is one who seeks the good pleasure of God then like the one who draws on himself the wrath of God? His abode is Hell – and worst, indeed, is that destination! They are in varying grades with God, and God is All-Seer of what they do.” (Quran 3:162-163)

“And surely, Hell is the promised place for them all. It has seven gates, for each of these gates is a class of sinners assigned.” (Quran 15:43-44)

“And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups until, when they reach it, its gates are opened and its keepers will say, ‘Did there not come to you messengers from yourselves, reciting to you the verses of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?’ They will say, ‘Yes, but the word (meaning the decree) of punishment has come into effect upon the disbelievers.’” (Quran 35:71)

“…But those who disbelieved will have cut out for them garments of fire. Poured upon their heads will be scalding water.” (Quran 22:19)
“And you will see the criminals that Day bound together in shackles, their garments of liquid pitch (melted copper) and their faces covered by the Fire.” (Quran 14:49-50)


“No food will there be for them except from a bitter, thorny plant which neither nourishes nor avails against hunger.” (Quran 88:6-7)

“Indeed, the tree of zaqqum is food for the sinful, like murky oil, it boils within bellies, like the boiling of scalding water.” (Quran 44:43-46)

“Is that (Paradise) better as hospitality or the tree of zaqqum? Indeed, We have made it a torment for the wrongdoers. Indeed, it is a tree issuing from the bottom of the Hellfire, its emerging fruit as if it was heads of the devils. And, indeed, they will eat from it and fill with it their bellies. Then, indeed, they will have after it a mixture of scalding water. Then, indeed, their return will be to the Hellfire.” (Quran 37:62-68)

“They will be given to drink boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces).” (Quran 47:15)

 

[winner08]

I dont know if I am welcomed here or not. I would like to share with you the hereafter according to an Islamic view. I will mainly depend on Quranic verses, and the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)'s sayings:

What is there in Paradise?

“... there will be there all that the souls could desire, all that the eyes could delight in …” (Quran 43:71)

“Eat and drink at ease for that which you have sent forth (good deeds) in days past!” (Quran 69:24)

“… They will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade. They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good [is] the recompense! How beautiful a couch [is there] to recline on!” (Quran 18:31)

“They will never fall ill, blow their noses or spit.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

Indeed may you be healthy and never be sick again, may you live and never die again, may you be young and never grow feeble again, may you enjoy, and never feel sorrow and regret again.” (Saheeh Muslim)

They will not hear therein ill speech or commission of sin. But only the saying of: Peace! Peace!” (Quran 56:25-26)

“And We shall remove from their breasts any (mutual) hatred or sense of injury (which they had, if at all, in the life of this world)…” (Quran 7:43)

“There will be no hatred or resentment among them, their hearts will be as one, and they will glorify God, morning and evening.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

And whoever obeys God and the Messenger – those will be with the ones upon whom God has bestowed favor – of the prophets, the steadfast affirmers of truth, the martyrs and the righteous. And excellent are those as companions!” (Quran 4:69)

“Crystal-white, delicious to those who drink (thereof), free from intoxication, nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom” (Quran 37:46-47)

“...rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes...” (Quran 47:15)

“...and they shall have therein purified mates…” (Quran 2:25)

“No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy, as a reward for what they used to do.” (Quran 32:17)

Welcome D.B.(dialouge is the best)
I notice alot of these verse have physical rewards. Is it physical or does the phyical things atand for spiritual things. Some things we can't relate to in the spiritual since so the writers will use physical things to discribe the spirital (you understand)?

BTW You are always welcome as far as I am concerned.

 

[dailogue is the best]

I know that it seems like spoon feeding. And I am sorry that the thread meant discussion of only the NT and the OT.

 

[winner08]

Why is it that all religions seems to have a heaven and a hell? a place for good or a place for bad people to go after death. I remember the story of Pandora's box it sounds alot lot the STORY of the apple that Eve bit into. Then I also notice where the story of the Flood in alot older than what is in the Bible. Stories form all parts of the earth. Just thinking out loud.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Welcome D.B.(dialouge is the best)
I notice alot of these verse have physical rewards. Is it physical or does the phyical things atand for spiritual things. Some things we can't relate to in the spiritual since so the writers will use physical things to discribe the spirital (you understand)?

I think I understand you, Darren. There is also mention of spiritual reward as our hearts will get rid of any evil feelings, and we will feel like we are one:
“And We shall remove from their breasts any (mutual) hatred or sense of injury (which they had, if at all, in the life of this world)…” (Quran 7:43)

“There will be no hatred or resentment among them, their hearts will be as one, and they will glorify God, morning and evening.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

BTW You are always welcome as far as I am concerned.

Oh! Darren. May God bless you

 

[winner08]

I know that it seems like spoon feeding. And I am sorry that the thread meant discussion of only the NT and the OT.

It's always good to have fresh eyes on the subject.
Don't ever be sorry for stating you opinion.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Darren,

You said,

"...it sounds like Hinduisim or Buddism."

--> A lot of Hinduisim and Buddhism makes sense to me. The two are a lot more similar than most people realize. Would you agree?

"Why is it that all religions seems to have a heaven and a hell?"

--> In your system, if a person dies, and he/she is not good enough for Heaven, where does he/she go?

"...the story of the Flood [is] alot older than what is in the Bible."

--> I believe the Flood occured many thousands of years ago.

 

[winner08]

Darren,

You said,

"...it sounds like Hinduisim or Buddism."

--> A lot of Hinduisim and Buddhism makes sense to me. The two are a lot more similar than most people realize. Would you agree?

"Why is it that all religions seems to have a heaven and a hell?"

--> In your system, if a person dies, and he/she is not good enough for Heaven, where does he/she go?

"...the story of the Flood [is] alot older than what is in the Bible."

--> I believe the Flood occured many thousands of years ago.

Remember Nick who you talking to. This is me, I am one of the few here that doesn't believe in A Hell or A Heaven. When a person dies that person is in the grave(Sheol) or (Hades). Their soul is not floting around in heaven or down in hell. So Nick, NOT MT SYSTEM. HA! HA!

PS Even Jesus taught that no one has ascended into heaven (A realm) Not a physicall place. If it were not so I would have told you.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Darren,

I sometimes think about people who died hundreds of thousands of years ago. According to your belief system, they are still in Sheol or Hades, and they will still be there untold billions of years from now. If that works for you, great.

 

[winner08]

Darren,

I sometimes think about people who died hundreds of thousands of years ago. According to your belief system, they are still in Sheol or Hades, and they will still be there untold billions of years from now. If that works for you, great.

Well Nick let me just say< I don't have a time line on how long but I do believe we will all be resurrected judged and sentence and then released after we paid our debt. The sentence will be in the lake of fire for how long will be determined by our works. After we are cleansed in the LOF. then we will be changed from martal to immortal, physcial to spirit then and only then will we be in the true image of God. That's it in a nut shell.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Darren,

I think you have put together a very good synopsis of your belief system. The good news is, I think you and have more in common in our mutual belief systems than most people might first expect.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Nick —

Feel free to show how my ideas do not make sense. I look forward to it.

OK. Here's one for you.

However, Hell is not eternal. First, there is no word for “eternal” in Hebrew.

You mean there is no concept in the Hebrew mind of the atemporal? Of the everlasting? That doesn't make sense. In Genesis 1:1 for example, God is, before the creation. Time and space belong to the created order.

The eternal aspect of the Hebrew statement haya, "I am" used in reference to the Divine name reeks of the eternal. When Jesus said "before Abraham was, I am (ego eimi)" (John 8:58) the Jews were in no doubt of this inference, which was why they were so enraged they tried to stone him there and then.

The word ‘eternity,’ by which Christian theologians interpret the term ‘for ever and ever,’ .. "
Oh dear, that's not quite correct. Christian theologians distinguish between eternity and 'forever and ever'.

In fact the theologian Boethius (480-524) gave a definition of 'eternity', which became the norm, as: "possession, without succession and perfect, of interminable life", 'interminabilis vitae tota simul et perfecta possessio' (The Consolations of Philosophy V, 6). Something can be 'forever and ever' and still suffer succession, or change, and if so, it is not perfect.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The definition, which was adopted by the Schoolmen, at least as applying to eternity properly so called, that of God, implies four things: that eternity is:
a life,
without beginning or end,
or succession, and
of the most perfect kind.

(Italics my emphasis.)

Eternity then, in Christian doctrine, is not just a quantitative dimension, nor as such does it infer a temporal duration of 'forever and ever', but rather an atemporal condition.

Furthermore, the term also signifies a qualitative dimension of the Perfect, the Simple, the Absolute, as their philosophical heritage understood it. Eternity exists only in God. Only God is eternal. Eternal life is the Divine Life.

+++

Oulam, says Le Clerc, only imports a time when beginning or end is not known. It does not mean ‘infinite duration,’ and the word for ever in the Old Testament, only signifies a ‘long time.’” (H.P. Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine, Vol. I, page 336 note)

Another word is qedem, which can mean eternal, ancient, aforetime, earliest time, old ... and east — its quite poetic. Other definitions of oulam accepted by scholars are: a long time (of the past or the future, or both), or perpetuity. It can also be translated as 'everlasting' which, in God, is synonymous with perpetuity.

“... ‘eternal damnation’ ... [is not] eternal, but only, as in the original Greek of the New Testament, ‘eonian’, that is, for the period of an eon or dispensation. (C. Jinarajadasa)

But the Greek reads aiōnios, an adjective meaning: without beginning and end; that which always has been and always will be, from the noun aiōn which can mean for ever; an unbroken age; perpetuity of time; eternity.

As Jesus implicitly linked the eternal with God — that eternal life is life in God, and that is a life of Peace and Rest: Beatitude — then if you're not in God, you're not in eternity ... but to make the point more telling, He talks of another eternity, the antithesis of the true one, everything the true one isn't — no peace, no rest, but no time nor movement either, as eternity implies an atemporal condition outside of space and time.

“Eternal” would have been more accurately translated in the Bible as “aeon.”

For the above reasons, no it wouldn't. An aeon is a noun, not an adjective, it commonly implies not only perpetuity, but also an age, a period of finite duration, a temporal, not an atemporal condition. So aiōn would have been inexact and less accurate than aiōnios for that reason.

I see Hell as being something that lasts for a while, but the person then leaves Hell, and moves on, to a better place.

That's not how Christ sees it.

Nick — I am in no doubt your ideas make sense to you, according to your own terms and definitions, but the term 'eternal' in the Christian Tradition has its own paradigm, context and definition according to its own epistemology, the reasoning and logic of which I, and many, many others of the highest nobility of soul, find, and continue to find, to be flawless, and beautiful, and True ... I find it nowhere else expressed so fully, so vividly and so exactly.

If you're going to say what Christians believe, then the obligation is upon you to allow common terms to express their proper meaning in a Christian context — not to redefine them according to your own contextual meaning and thus infer that Christianity got it wrong.

Thomas

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas,

The Bible uses two words, 'forever' and 'everlasting.'

Psalm 90
...from everlasting to everlasting....

Psalm 148
...forever and ever....

Eternity cannot be followed by another eternity, but this is exactly what the Bible says in both instances. Clearly, the Bible has been mistranslated from the original.

The original word was similar to the present-day Buddhist and Hindu word Kalpa, which is a period of time of millions or billions of years in length. Therefore, both phrases in both Psalms are correcly translated into English as meaning kalpa after kalpa.

 

[winner08]

WOW!, MAN, What are you guys talking about? I must really be a rookie, because this is way over my head. which aint sying much. I am familler with the translation of the word forever and ever to aeion. This age and the next. When Jesus talks about burnning in hell forever and ever I believer it is a bad translation in which it should read burnning in hell (the fire of gehenna) for an age and the next age. That's it no more. two ages. God's puninshments doesn't last forever. It has a beginning and an end. That is my simple belief. When you get into what you guys are talking about it just makes it harder for some to understand a seemingly hard subject to begin with.