Judas hero or traitor??

[Nick_A]

I rather suggest Jesus knew what was to come about ... a close reading of Scripture shows He talks of the 'hour', but only as He draws closer does He know its precise nature.


That's not what the text says. I have said "do what you think necessary" but I cannot therefore claim the idea was mine, nor its actioning.


By Judas. Not by Jesus.

Thomas

Thomas

I rather suggest Jesus knew what was to come about ... a close reading of Scripture shows He talks of the 'hour', but only as He draws closer does He know its precise nature.

True, it had to be timed. It was dangerous for outsiders so Judas juggled that around.

That's not what the text says. I have said "do what you think necessary" but I cannot therefore claim the idea was mine, nor its actioning.

I read the text as saying Judas had to lose his conscious understanding and become what for us is "normal." Jesus helped him do it letting Satan into him. Then Jesus told him to get busy with his mission.

John 13:

26Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

By Judas. Not by Jesus.

Jesus allowed Judas, by letting Satan into him, to acquire the necessary mindset necessary for his purpose. Judas played his part but Jesus understood why his part had to be played. If Judas doesn't play his part, the teaching doesn't devolve into the secular world as it did and couldn't awaken people asleep in the world able to profit from it

 

[TheKhan]

Not quite. Close, but not quite.

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/rome-in-transition-8875.html

For personal agenda I will reply to this post, but y`all can ignore it. I found it interesting that the Persian cult Mithraism was also mentioned in your long article from the link as a list of the promenant cults in those days. This might be the buddhism equivalent of a religion about the next messiah, that I am yet to check out (a little rumor says he`s the anti-christ, but heck an anti-christ in this day of age would be about Christ).

Greco-Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Greco-Persian cosmological influences A popular figure in Greco-Buddhist art, the future Buddha Maitreya, has sometimes been linked to the Iranian yazata (Zoroastrian divinity) Miθra who was also adopted as a figure in a Greco-Roman syncretistic cult under the name of Mithras. Maitreya is the fifth Buddha of the present world-age, who will appear at some undefined future epoch.




I also sense I need to find out more about the Manichees, also mentioned in your article. Very interesting article, but I wonder what you meant by " close but not quite" ? When I wrote that Christianity was founded by handful of Christians commissioned by Constantine. Do you mean it was much more complex than that?

 

[winner08]

winner08,
I`m not eager to go into a deep debate and my intents are not to attack you. I just want to make a point or point you in a direction.

That's cool. Point to point. No need to get into a deep discussion. It will only lead to problems.




I`m glad, for a moment I thought you got side tracked.

A. No not a bit.


actually I was complimenting you for excessive(my opinion) love towards Judas although its only right.

A. Thanks


Some people think I seem space alien-like, but I am human and from earth..

A. That's OK. some believe we do come from another planted.


I was thinking more on the lines of you questioning whether Moses really split the red sea, or Jesus really walked on water. I think its possible, but I just have to say, I feel strongly that you might be getting side tracked, and losing focus despite your intents which I think I understand.

A. Well now that you meantion it. Moses did not part the Red Sea.
It was the sea of reeds. Another mistranslation from our scholars.
But I do believe Jesus walked on water.


Amen.



This I must disagree strongly. The Church was founded by Christ, yes. The revelation of divine origin, we and Christ did the best we could. We are not him, we have our limits. The bible is our best attempt at preserving what Christ told us. But again whatever we do is not the equivalent to Christ. period. We are some really dumb folks, trying to make the best out of life at best. We are not perfect beings. Stop assuming so.

p.s. To question the parts of the bible that are not the direct words of Jesus and God, and a lot of things can go wrong when you translate from one language to another, you would know if you knew anything about different languages, and over the generations a lot of things can be misunderstood or lost (its just a natural fact that this happens), to question the book, its safe to say sometimes that can sometimes mean just questioning our forefathers. Lets get that common sense straight.

A. Yes I agree that through the yrs the pople who copyed the bible in other languages have mistranslated many words. I can give many examples. but I won't.

But I don`t think rewriting the bible that Judas was actually a good but ignorant guy, guided by God for a purpose, is an idea that the Christian majority is thrilled to hear about or a wise way for a Christian to spend his time with the book. Although most likely the truth, when you really think about it. You`re free to spend your time how you like, of course.

I'm not interested in rewriting the Bible. It would take too long. I have to keep my time free so that I may go point to point with you. ( that;s me trying to be funny).

 

[winner08]

Of course Jesus knew what had to be done. He helped Judas do it. It was planned

Nick have you notice how in the book of Matt. Judas is given just a few lines. Not one of them speak of Him being evil?? Then by the time John is written Judas is satan himself. Why? maby it has something to do with Judas being a jew and the writers of the Gospels being christians? Maby the christian writers wanted to make Judas out to be evil and bad in betraying Christ therefore making sure that a wedge between the jews (who the christians blame for the death of Christ) and the christians who believe they are the true followers of Jesus Christ. To this day I still hear about how the Jews killed Christ. Maby they didn't nail Him to the stake but they are responsible, according to some christians. What say you Nick? is it possible?

 

[winner08]

For personal agenda I will reply to this post, but y`all can ignore it. I found it interesting that the Persian cult Mithraism was also mentioned in your long article from the link as a list of the promenant cults in those days. This might be the buddhism equivalent of a religion about the next messiah, that I am yet to check out (a little rumor says he`s the anti-christ, but heck an anti-christ in this day of age would be about Christ).

Greco-Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Greco-Persian cosmological influences A popular figure in Greco-Buddhist art, the future Buddha Maitreya, has sometimes been linked to the Iranian yazata (Zoroastrian divinity) Miθra who was also adopted as a figure in a Greco-Roman syncretistic cult under the name of Mithras. Maitreya is the fifth Buddha of the present world-age, who will appear at some undefined future epoch.




I also sense I need to find out more about the Manichees, also mentioned in your article. Very interesting article, but I wonder what you meant by " close but not quite" ? When I wrote that Christianity was founded by handful of Christians commissioned by Constantine. Do you mean it was much more complex than that?

Thekahn: Do you recall the name of man in charge of puting together the people who then decided what gospels would go into making the Bible? I know Consintine was the roman emperor.

 

[TheKhan]

Thekahn: Do you recall the name of man in charge of puting together the people who then decided what gospels would go into making the Bible? I know Consintine was the roman emperor.

I`m sorry my knowledge in the founding of the bible is somewhat limited, I haven`t gone there much yet. I know what a state religion is, what imperial cults can be, given that I come from a Shinto-Buddhist background, and roughly know European history starting from Greece to the Romans, and somewhat the bible, and believe in Christ. Knowing how complicated things can be in our times from Rome, to UK, to America, and assuming how stubborn ancient people can be, I can only imagine what it was like to put together a book that was agreeable by Christian authorities in those times. I`m sure some people were pulling their hair out and maybe screaming at each other.

 

[juantoo3]

Thekahn: Do you recall the name of man in charge of puting together the people who then decided what gospels would go into making the Bible? I know Consintine was the roman emperor.

I am not TheKhan, but I can answer your question. Athanasius presided over the Nicene Council. It might help to look up the "Arian (Aryan) Controversy." Arius was Athanasius' chief rival at the Council.

 

[juantoo3]

I also sense I need to find out more about the Manichees, also mentioned in your article. Very interesting article, but I wonder what you meant by " close but not quite" ? When I wrote that Christianity was founded by handful of Christians commissioned by Constantine. Do you mean it was much more complex than that?

Yes, it was more complex than that. Not all was settled at Nicea. Even those things that were supposedly settled sometimes resurfaced. For example, at Nicea the position advocated by Arius was renounced by the leadership under Athanasius, yet the Arian sect persisted for quite a while after. Constantine was even baptised as an *Arian* Christian on his deathbed. It was something like a hundred years or more before the Athanasian majority finally "defeated" the Arian minority.

Even regarding the authorized canon, not every book now authorized was authorized at Nicea.

Probably the single most important thing to come out of Nicea was the Apostle's Creed.

Oh, I do want to thank you for that tidbit about the Manichee connection to Mithraism. I've been meaning to go there and just haven't gotten there yet...

 

[TheKhan]

tidbit about the Manichee connection to Mithraism. I've been meaning to go there and just haven't gotten there yet...

fyi, correction, I wanted to point out the connection between Mithraism to Buddhism, as was written in the Greco-Buddhist wiki. But when I checked into Mithraism, this connection only became a mystery for me.. In Japan, the next buddha is called Miroku, of which I am yet to check into its institutions.

Manichee, was incredible, I saw information that I hadn`t seen in a long time which I now understand how it might have reached the East. although I thought some parts of it were unnecessary for the general public.

It just struck me though, if there`s a connection between Manichism/Buddhism, and Mithraism/Buddhism, then there might be a connection between Manichism and Mithraism. gotta check this out.

 

[winner08]

fyi, correction, I wanted to point out the connection between Mithraism to Buddhism, as was written in the Greco-Buddhist wiki. But when I checked into Mithraism, this connection only became a mystery for me.. In Japan, the next buddha is called Miroku, of which I am yet to check into its institutions.

Manichee, was incredible, I saw information that I hadn`t seen in a long time which I now understand how it might have reached the East. although I thought some parts of it were unnecessary for the general public.

It just struck me though, if there`s a connection between Manichism/Buddhism, and Mithraism/Buddhism, then there might be a connection between Manichism and Mithraism. gotta check this out.

I have to admit I don't have a clue to what yall are saying here. Mithraisn/Buddhism/Manichism and Mitraism. What does this have to do with the topic. HELP!

 

[TheKhan]

I have to admit I don't have a clue to what yall are saying here. Mithraisn/Buddhism/Manichism and Mitraism. What does this have to do with the topic. HELP!

Well, if we`re going to the original topic of why we need to have an accurate understanding of the bible (through questioning why even Judas was not a traitor e.g.) , I think we`re just discussing what kind of environment/times the bible came out from as a side fact.

You`ve got to agree that to know the historic environment of those times might provide extra means to understand an ancient book better. Well at least thats the logic..

TK

p.s. since this discussion, I did find out that St. Hippo grew up in a Manichism environment, actually was very good at it before he converted to Christianity. Constantine was most likely a Mithraist, or it seems most of his soldiers were. And I`m just trying to find out how buddhism fits into all of this because I`m quite sure that it had a role(the lost 15 years of Jesus in India theory??, original Christians who knew about buddhism etc..) somewhere in the formation of the book, but that is a personal pursuit of mine to understand the formation of the bible better. I thought that was the whole point of this thread..

 

[juantoo3]

p.s. since this discussion, I did find out that St. Hippo grew up in a Manichism environment, actually was very good at it before he converted to Christianity. Constantine was most likely a Mithraist, or it seems most of his soldiers were. And I`m just trying to find out how buddhism fits into all of this because I`m quite sure that it had a role(the lost 15 years of Jesus in India theory??, original Christians who knew about buddhism etc..) somewhere in the formation of the book, but that is a personal pursuit of mine to understand the formation of the bible better. I thought that was the whole point of this thread..

Thanks, TK.

Everything I've read about Constantine points to him being a "Sun Worshipper" up until his deathbed conversion to Christianity. Mithraism seems to have been a common religion among the soldiers, but it wasn't the "pure" faith from East Asia, it was a modified form of the faith (although exactly what "modified" means I am still trying to figure out). Some of the literature I read pointed to him being baptised as an Arian Christian, curious because Arianism was the "opponent" of Athanasian Christianity which held official sway from the Nicene Council on...

Interesting about St. Hippo. Some of the other early "Church Fathers" had interesting pedigrees too.

My jury is still out about Jesus in India. I hear it quite a bit but haven't really seen anything. Something that might pique your interest, the "Traditions of Glastonbury." According to this, Jesus used to sail with his uncle to the tin mines in the South of England.

 

[Thomas]

p.s. since this discussion, I did find out that St. Hippo grew up in a Manichism environment, actually was very good at it before he converted to Christianity.

True, but when he could no longer endorse Manicheanism Augustine actually turned to Platonism as a viable philosophy, so his rejection of Mani's doctrine was not due to Christianity, but his own philosophical insight.

He went to Rome, I recall, to further his philosophical studies, and there met St Ambrose, a Christian and a Platonist.

Constantine was most likely a Mithraist, or it seems most of his soldiers were.

Mithraism was a big deal among the soldiery, and was considered 'a soldiers' religion', so no doubt Constantine endorsed it. It didn't have the social penetration of Christianity however, nor the social cohesion. By this time, Christianity was practised in every social circle. If you wanted to gather the nation under one religious banner, Christianity was a better bet, and better placed, than Mithraism.

And I`m just trying to find out how buddhism fits into all of this because I`m quite sure that it had a role(the lost 15 years of Jesus in India theory??, original Christians who knew about buddhism etc..) somewhere in the formation of the book, but that is a personal pursuit of mine to understand the formation of the bible better. I thought that was the whole point of this thread..

Well the big issue is how to insert a non-theist doctrine into a theism, for a start, which would necessitate discarding the basic hermeneutic upon which Buddhism stands; how to trace New Testament doctrine to Buddhism, when it is presented as a continuation of the Hebrew doctrine ... in fact how can you present any 'Buddhist' doctrine within the context of an emphasis on monotheism, without distorting or corrupting the doctrine so badly that it's influence is negated before one even starts.

And again, as there is ample evidence of doctrinal disagreement and dispute, the chance of Buddhist doctrine shaping Christianity, without a word or comment or argument, would indicate a 'blind spot' of significant size.

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

Satan worked in and through Judas.

John13:2 "And during supper,when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then After the morsel Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him,"what are you goingto do, do quickly."

John 6;70-71 "Jesus ansewered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" He spoke of Judas he son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him."

John 13:11 " For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said,"you are not all clean."

Jesus condemned Judas for his betrayal. He would not do so if it were God's will for the crucifixion.

Matthew 26:24 'Woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born (also recored in Mark 14;21 and Luke 22:21).

Satan is not know for doing Gods'Will
As Jesus said Satan also worked through the nation of Israel to crucify him.

 

[wil]

I didn't know moonies were so fire and brimstone. I've been to a few interfaith events held in the DC area and it was quite welcoming of all faiths. Had Sunni and Shia and Sufi sitting at the same tables some great discussions...

 

[soleil10]

I didn't know moonies were so fire and brimstone. I've been to a few interfaith events held in the DC area and it was quite welcoming of all faiths. Had Sunni and Shia and Sufi sitting at the same tables some great discussions...

I am just quoting verses in the NT. I do not like to be called moonie

I respect and welcome all faiths and beliefs

When Jesus said that it would have been better for Judas, if he had never lived, it was very strong. I am not the one who wrote it.

It may come out stronger through the internet instead of a face to face discussion but these are the words Jesus spoke.

 

[wil]

I do not like to be called moonie

I respect and welcome all faiths and beliefs

I apologize, over the years many of the folks from the Unification Church introduced themselves as that, recognized they were followers of the interpretations of Reverend Moon.

 

[soleil10]

I apologize, over the years many of the folks from the Unification Church introduced themselves as that, recognized they were followers of the interpretations of Reverend Moon.

Thank you Will. I appreciate it. Everybody's personality is different. I prefer to be judged by the content of my posts and my behavior than by the name of my denomination.

I like to look at each person as an individual and not carry any prejudice based on their religion.

I think everyone feels they belong to God's denomination and I respect that.