Identity if the serpent in Genesis (1)

[soleil10]

This is my investigation on the Identity of the Serpent in Genesis ? (part 1).
Let's gather the clues !!!
1) The serpent is intelligent: "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made."
2) He is the first one who took notice of the fruit and call attention to it. " has God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? ".
3) He is able to communicate with humans. "and he said unto the woman".
4) He is aware of God and His word." Has God said ?".
Therefore, the serpent is not a literal animal, but rather is an intelligent, spiritual being that can converse with humans. He is the symbol of some other type of spiritual entity.
Let's take this investigation to a deeper level. Revelation 12:9 mentions " The ancient serpent" called the devil or satan...he was hurled to the earth and "his angels" with him.
The significant elements that we can derive for this scripture are as follow:
1) The serpent is a symbol for satan or the devil
2) The devil or satan is described has having been "hurled down" from heaven..which indicates his origin position and status were anchored there.
3) Satan has a cadre of Angels that answer to him, described as "his" angels. This is further evidence that eden's serpent was indeed an angelic figure

How am I doing so far ?

 

[Dream]

Supplemental:

Romans chapter 7 refers to the serpent and possibly also the two trees. It begins with a discussion of Law, divorce, and adoption by referring to marriage law, and it progresses into an examination of the Genesis Garden question: How did good Adam sin, and what did the serpent have to do with it? Why do we sin, and should we be destroyed or not? Paul in this letter internalizes that old serpent, which he says has beguiled him. He says "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me." Paul seems to refer to the garden which also has a serpent, so that when Adam (meaning 'Man') would do good evil is present with him. Adam = Humankind. Actually, all of Romans can be a lens to see how Paul views Genesis and the serpent.

Sit down with Romans and read it straight through like a book, taking notes. Also review Deut. 24 marriage and divorce. In my opinion, Paul treats divorce as the death of both parties, which would explain his choice of words 'If ye died to the law...' when he opens by saying 'woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives'. This is not central to seeing the connection between Romans 7 and Garden of Eden but may help with the analysis.

 

[Gatekeeper]

I don't know, but I am leaning toward the serpent being that part of us that desires our will over G-ds will. If everything in Eden was very good, then how could there be an 'evil' angelic being tempting us to disobey G-d? This is definately something I'd LOVE to get more views on, as I've never looked at the serpent as being a literal thing, but rather I view it to be our nature to seek self control over G-ds own.

GK

 

[Thomas]

Hi soleil10

The serpent is intelligent: "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made."

Depends how you define 'intelligent' ... One might say man is more subtle than any beast of the field ... so that puts man and the serpent on something of an equal footing?

He is the first one who took notice of the fruit and call attention to it. "has God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? ".

Doesn't mean he was the first to notice it. Adam and Eve knew of it, obviously. But it does mean he, and our Primordial parents, both saw something 'in' the tree ...

He is able to communicate with humans. "and he said unto the woman".

So, like our Primordial Parents, he possesses a rational nature.

He is aware of God and His word." Has God said ?".
Therefore, the serpent is not a literal animal, but rather is an intelligent, spiritual being that can converse with humans. He is the symbol of some other type of spiritual entity.

Depends what you mean by 'spiritual entity' ... he could be the symbol of a 'human entity', for example ...

Let's take this investigation to a deeper level. Revelation 12:9 mentions " The ancient serpent" called the devil or satan...he was hurled to the earth and "his angels" with him.
The significant elements that we can derive for this scripture are as follow:
1) The serpent is a symbol for satan or the devil
2) The devil or satan is described has having been "hurled down" from heaven..which indicates his origin position and status were anchored there.
3) Satan has a cadre of Angels that answer to him, described as "his" angels. This is further evidence that eden's serpent was indeed an angelic figure

OK. But we're into deep symbolism here ...

Metaphysically, what we have to figure out is, if an agent of evil exists in paradise, then paradise is not perfect, not therefore paradise, because paradise is by definition free of all evil?

Metaphysically again, the assumption that 'God created evil' is an oxymoron, it's a self-contradiction.

God is good. How do we say that? Because what God wills is good. OK, but how do we then say, 'God wills evil'? Either:
A: If what God wills is God, and God wills evil, then evil is a good — because it is willed by God — and not an evil, so the thesis doesn't make sense.
B: If God wills evil, then God is not good ... he is a capricious being. He might, for example, suddenly decide that left is right, and right is left, and that all saints burn in hell, and that all murderers go to heaven, and that coffee turns to acid in the mouth, and that things fall up ...

What you have to remember is the Jews have a definite view on Old Nick, and so do the Christians, but ther two views do not precisely coincide, so we have to be careful in how we go forward.

I rather view the serpent as being a chosen symbol because, as the tree represents the vertical aspect in two degrees (below and above the ground) and three orders (roots, trunk and branches) ... the serpent is the ideal symbol for something that moves in one plane or one dimension only ...

... I regard the serpent as symbolising the self-serving egoic tendency. This is picked up by Hermeticism generally (the worm Ouroburus who eats its own tail) and Christian Hermeticism particularly. The serpent suggests something that exists purely to serve itself, and draws its life from its own excreta (that is, the unbridled intellect consumes, indeed becomes addicted to, its own fantasies)

Thus one might argue that Lucifer became enamoured of his own dazzling beauty. The Moslem Tradition says Lucifer 'fell' because he refused to acknowledge man as a creation better than he, and would not serve him.

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

Supplemental:

Romans chapter 7 refers to the serpent and possibly also the two trees. It begins with a discussion of Law, divorce, and adoption by referring to marriage law, and it progresses into an examination of the Genesis Garden question: How did good Adam sin, and what did the serpent have to do with it? Why do we sin, and should we be destroyed or not? Paul in this letter internalizes that old serpent, which he says has beguiled him. He says "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me." Paul seems to refer to the garden which also has a serpent, so that when Adam (meaning 'Man') would do good evil is present with him. Adam = Humankind. Actually, all of Romans can be a lens to see how Paul views Genesis and the serpent.
Sit down with Romans and read it straight through like a book, taking notes. Also review Deut. 24 marriage and divorce. In my opinion, Paul treats divorce as the death of both parties, which would explain his choice of words 'If ye died to the law...' when he opens by saying 'woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives'. This is not central to seeing the connection between Romans 7 and Garden of Eden but may help with the analysis.

Thanks, I will, Soleil10

 

[soleil10]

I don't know, but I am leaning toward the serpent being that part of us that desires our will over G-ds will. If everything in Eden was very good, then how could there be an 'evil' angelic being tempting us to disobey G-d? This is definately something I'd LOVE to get more views on, as I've never looked at the serpent as being a literal thing, but rather I view it to be our nature to seek self control over G-ds own.GK

My understanding is that this Angel was not originaly created evil.

 

[soleil10]

Hi soleil10 Depends how you define 'intelligent' ... One might say man is more subtle than any beast of the field ... so that puts man and the serpent on something of an equal footing?

Hi Thomas. Initially when A&E were babies and growing, Lucifer was their teacher

Doesn't mean he was the first to notice it. Adam and Eve knew of it, obviously. But it does mean he, and our Primordial parents, both saw something 'in' the tree ...

What I meant is that in the bible,Lucifer brought the subject of the fruit to Eve first and ask her a bout it.

Depends what you mean by 'spiritual entity' ... he could be the symbol of a 'human entity', for example ...

A&E are both spiritual and physicl beings. Lucifer as an angel is only spiritual

Metaphysically, what we have to figure out is, if an agent of evil exists in paradise, then paradise is not perfect, not therefore paradise, because paradise is by definition free of all evil?

Metaphysically again, the assumption that 'God created evil' is an oxymoron, it's a self-contradiction.

Of course God did not create evil. Lucifer was originally created as a good angel but fell.

Thus one might argue that Lucifer became enamoured of his own dazzling beauty. The Moslem Tradition says Lucifer 'fell' because he refused to acknowledge man as a creation better than he, and would not serve him.Thomas

Partially, I agree with this.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Thomas. Initially when A&E were babies and growing, Lucifer was their teacher

Really? Where'd you get that from? Remember that Adam and Eve were made fully formed, and therefore not babies? Remember also that they walked in the Garden with God, so I very much doubt they'd need 'teaching'. When God brought the animals before Adam for him to name them, for example, there is no mention of an angelic tutor.

In both the Old and New Testament, angels are messengers — and where God is present, there is no need of messengers.

What I meant is that in the bible, Lucifer brought the subject of the fruit to Eve first and ask her about it.

I don't equate Lucifer with the serpent in the Garden. I know the author of Revelations does, but then he adopts a wide and free-ranging symbolism.

Angels tend to appear as angels. I have no recollection of an angel appearing to man as anything other than an angel, but I could be wrong here. They certainly do not have physical bodies, and in the Christian Tradition, are beings of pure intellectual light.

I think that the authors chose not an angel but a serpent, says something.

I think the serpent is symbolic of a tendency or a disposition which brought Adam and Eve down, and the same tendency brought Lucifer down. In a sense, Lucifer was tempted by 'his' serpent, and he too fell.

Adam and Eve were not 'spiritual' beings, by the way, but creatures. As suggested above, read Romans, where Paul draws the distinction between Adam and Jesus.

Although created fully grown, St Irenaeus regarded the couple as immature in the sense they had to live a bit ... and as they lived and came to understand more, so more would be revealed to them. Sadly, they fell victim before they reached their maturity.

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

Really? Where'd you get that from? Remember that Adam and Eve were made fully formed, and therefore not babies?

Everything in God's creation from the plants, the animals, humans and even planets go through a growth process in order to reach maturity.

Adam and Eve had to grow to, phyically and spiritually. When they reach maturity they would become fruitfull.

They went through a period of learning and growing

Remember also that they walked in the Garden with God, so I very much doubt they'd need 'teaching'. When God brought the animals before Adam for him to name them, for example, there is no mention of an angelic tutor.

In Ezekiel 28:12-19, Lucifer is referred to a "covering cherub". This is akin to a guardian angel. Lucifer was there to protect and serve.

Here again the symbol of the serpent means wisdom.

In both the Old and New Testament, angels are messengers — and where God is present, there is no need of messengers.

Servant and protector too .

I think the serpent is symbolic of a tendency or a disposition which brought Adam and Eve down, and the same tendency brought Lucifer down. In a sense, Lucifer was tempted by 'his' serpent, and he too fell.

Through the result of the fall we inherited our fallen nature, Archangel nature.

Adam and Eve were not 'spiritual' beings, by the way, but creatures. As suggested above, read Romans, where Paul draws the distinction between Adam and Jesus.

Human beings live in two worlds (spiritual and physical). At the fall our spirit died, our five spiritual senses were seriously diminished and we lost our divinity

Although created fully grown, St Irenaeus regarded the couple as immature in the sense they had to live a bit ... and as they lived and came to understand more, so more would be revealed to them. Sadly, they fell victim before they reached their maturity.Thomas

Yes they fell before becoming fruitful and reaching the level of direct dominion with God where they would not need God's commandment.

St Irenaeus is from my hometown in Lyon. I went to see where he was buried. Ponce Pilate is also from that area. I heard that a movie is being made about him.

 

[Thomas]

Adam and Eve had to grow to, phyically and spiritually. When they reach maturity they would become fruitfull.

Well that's an assumption, isn't it? A reading of the text suggests Adam and Eve were created fully formed.

In Ezekiel 28:12-19, Lucifer is referred to a "covering cherub". This is akin to a guardian angel. Lucifer was there to protect and serve.

Ezekiel 28:12-19 is addressing the King of Tyrus? I would suggest that the same 'tendency' that overthrew the King of Babylon (pride) overthrew the King of Tyrus, and it was pride that was the downfall of Lucifer, and pride was the downfall of Adam and Eve.

Through the result of the fall we inherited our fallen nature, Archangel nature.

No, our fallen nature remains a human nature, a nature cannot fall and become something else. If that were true, we would all be archangels — and archangels do not have physical bodies. In fact an archangel is a 'purer' nature than a human nature, being pure light, whereas we are light and matter.

Human beings live in two worlds (spiritual and physical). At the fall our spirit died, our five spiritual senses were seriously diminished and we lost our divinity

We are not, nor were we ever, divine. Divine Union is an invitation and a gift, it is not our nature.

Yes they fell before becoming fruitful and reaching the level of direct dominion with God where they would not need God's commandment.

Not so. A created nature can never equal an uncreated nature. Man can never become God in that sense. God created the world, man didn't.

St Irenaeus is from my hometown in Lyon. I went to see where he was buried. Ponce Pilate is also from that area. I heard that a movie is being made about him.

St Irenaeus was born in Asia, and died in Lyons. But you should try and read his "Proof of the Apostolic Preaching" which will give you a more secure foundation upon which to base your speculations.

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

Well that's an assumption, isn't it? A reading of the text suggests Adam and Eve were created fully formed.

Everything in the universe goes through a growth process. Our life on earth is a time of growth before our 2nd birthday when we are born to the spirit world. It is the same in the womb, our body is being equiped in advance for the world on the earth.

We also need to grow spiritually. When Jesus says "become perfect like you Father is perfect means that we need to grow.

Ezekiel 28:12-19 is addressing the King of Tyrus? I would suggest that the same 'tendency' that overthrew the King of Babylon (pride) overthrew the King of Tyrus, and it was pride that was the downfall of Lucifer, and pride was the downfall of Adam and Eve.

I understand. Oracle often have a foundation in a distant past. This is the reason, I am using it here. We see this a lot in the bible.

No, our fallen nature remains a human nature, a nature cannot fall and become something else. If that were true, we would all be archangels — and archangels do not have physical bodies. In fact an archangel is a 'purer' nature than a human nature, being pure light, whereas we are light and matter.

After the human fall, we inherited our fallen nature. We still have our original nature. As St Paul says one part of us wants to go God's will and the other part wants to do the opposite. There is a war inside of us, especially between our body(flesh) and our mind (spirit).

We are not, nor were we ever, divine. Divine Union is an invitation and a gift, it is not our nature.

Yes, Jesus had a divine character. We fallen men have not reached that stage were we can be under the direct dominon of God united with him.

Not so. A created nature can never equal an uncreated nature. Man can never become God in that sense. God created the world, man didn't.

We can never be God of course but God wants us to be like him. We can be God with a small g. Jesus says " when you see me you see the Father. He even calls on us to do things greater than him.
A parent wants his children to be even better than him.

St Irenaeus was born in Asia, and died in Lyons. But you should try and read his "Proof of the Apostolic Preaching" which will give you a more secure foundation upon which to base your speculations.Thomas

In the year 177, 48 Xstians,many disciples of Montanus were martyred in Lyon, 2 more were martyred in 178. The youngest was 15 years old.

Already at that time, there was a division between the "evangelicals" and the main line Xstians. Some were united with James, the brother of Jesus and the others united with the Roman church. The divinity of Jesus as God is still a debated issue today.
So much persecution, inquisition happened because of this within the French history as well as between the protestant and Catholic spheres, for other reasons too.
I plan to study this more.

 

[Dream]

Soleil10, rather than exploring you are defending things that you don't know where they are from: Paradise Lost. A lot of the scriptures you have been told have to do with a 'Fallen angel' really can not. Also, temptation is explained many places in the Bible to come directly from within you -- not from rebelling angels (which are an impossibility)! Aside from a weird reference in ancient Irenaeus' Against Heresy or the god-goddess stories of pagan cults, I don't know of any other place the modern churches could have gotten this 'Rebellious angel' idea. Look at history and prove me otherwise! For a while I honestly thought the 'evil Catholics' must have introduced the idea, but Thomas seems to show maybe they didn't. Well OK, I think it may have been some of our own Protestants.

Milton was a devout man who would be shocked to find that he has been elevated to scriptural status among us! From Milton (not from the Bible) comes the modern teaching of a rebelling angel. Milton made some popular epic moral poetry, but it was not meant to be taught to you and me as literal history!

0 Sun! to tell thee how I hate thy beams,
That bring to my remembrance from what state

1 fell, how glorious once above thy sphere;
Till pride and worse ambition threw me down
Warring hi Heaven against Heaven's matchless King:
Ah, wherefore! he deserv'd no such return

From me, whom he created what I was
In that bright eminence, and with his good
Upbraided none; nor was his service hard.
What could be less than to afford him praise,
The easiest recompence, and pay him thanks,
How due! yet all his good prov'd ill in me,
And wrought but malice; lifted up so high

RSV Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?

RSV 2 Corinthians 4:6 For it is the God who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

 

[Gatekeeper]

My understanding is that this Angel was not originaly created evil.

That is a moot point [IMO] you neglected to reply to the body of my post, but instead chose to defend your fallen angel theory by suggesting he wasn't created evil. If your theory is correct, then the angel came after the events of creation, which would mean G-d deliberately sent something evil down to earth to tempt, and lead us away from G-ds will. It just doesn't add up in my mind, so maybe you could address the the view I presented, and perhaps refute it w/o feeling the need to defend your fallen angel. Of course, I have attempted to refute your position with 'this' post, so this one is fair game

Blessings,

GK

Btw, I am enjoying your posts on other topics. I just disagree with the whole Satan's out to get us concept.

 

[soleil10]

That is a moot point [IMO] you neglected to reply to the body of my post, but instead chose to defend your fallen angel theory by suggesting he wasn't created evil. If your theory is correct, then the angel came after the events of creation, which would mean G-d deliberately sent something evil down to earth to tempt, and lead us away from G-ds will. It just doesn't add up in my mind, so maybe you could address the the view I presented, and perhaps refute it w/o feeling the need to defend your fallen angel. Of course, I have attempted to refute your position with 'this' post, so this one is fair game

Lucifer became corrupted through the process of the fall. It is the same for Adam and Eve. He is now a fallen angel and humans have a fallen nature. God love even his enemies. He will not change His absolute principle. Man has to be victorious over satan. (Jesus did). He will surrender when he cannot find a base to work with anymore.

I will have to go back to your previous post. I do not remember what I did not answer.

Btw, I am enjoying your posts on other topics. I just disagree with the whole Satan's out to get us concept.

Thank you for letting me know Gatekeeper. That is nice of you .

Actually satan got us already in many ways. I can see it in my life. I have a lot of fallen nature to get rid off.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Lucifer became corrupted through the process of the fall. It is the same for Adam and Eve. He is now a fallen angel and humans have a fallen nature. God love even his enemies. He will not change His absolute principle. Man has to be victorious over satan. (Jesus did). He will surrender when he cannot find a base to work with anymore.

I will have to go back to your previous post. I do not remember what I did not answer.



Thank you for letting me know Gatekeeper. That is nice of you .

Actually satan got us already in many ways. I can see it in my life. I have a lot of fallen nature to get rid off.

LOL, don't we all? Actually, I'm of the mind that we are to completely die to self, crucifying our fallen nature, and live for Christ. That means to truly repent, and allow him to change us from the inside out.

If Lucifer was very good until the fall, than He wouldn't have tempted Eve to disobey G-d, as this happened before the fall, correct? It still doesn't add up in my mind, sol. I just don't see a literal being making us do this and do that, or tempting us to do this and that. We are ultimately responsible for our own action. We can't blame our desires on some supernatural entity [IMO]

GK

 

[soleil10]

LOL, don't we all? Actually, I'm of the mind that we are to completely die to self, crucifying our fallen nature, and live for Christ. That means to truly repent, and allow him to change us from the inside out.

I agree

If Lucifer was very good until the fall, than He wouldn't have tempted Eve to disobey G-d, as this happened before the fall, correct? It still doesn't add up in my mind,

The fall happened through a process. It did not happened just like that
We have to understand what really happened, what got Lucifer to loose God's view then leave his proper position to such a degree that a reversal of dominion took place and then the sin multiply from Eve to Adam.

We need to understand these 4 steps and realize that the fall happened in 2 phases. First a spiritual fall between Lucifer and Eve since lucifer was a spiritual being, then the physical fall between Eve and Adam.

What was the mental, emotional and motivation state that drove the fall and what was the fruit ?

sol. I just don't see a literal being making us do this and do that, or tempting us to do this and that. We are ultimately responsible for our own action. We can't blame our desires on some supernatural entity [IMO]GK

Yes, we have our prt of responsibility in the matter

 

[Dream]

You have canonized Milton's epic poetry without knowing it. If you are a preacher or parent, I beg you to stop spreading disinformation. Perhaps you were unaware before of Milton before, but you can still stop now! He who lies even unknowingly becomes a party to the liar, but and if he learns the truth must make amends. If you have borrowed anything (say a podium or church position), but it was damaged while in your possession, here is the spiritual pattern to follow: Exodus 22:14, Leviticus 6:2-4

Here are some verses about Satan, the devil, the serpent, etc.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ecclesiastes 1:15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 

[Azure24]

Jeez, I haven't been here in a while...

Anyway, regarding the question in the thread... Everything works through God, (YES EVEN SATAN). The Lord God creates all evil...

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there if none beside Me. I AM THE LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL [Heb: ra--#7451, ‘bad, evil.’ Same word translated "evil" 442 times in the Old Testament]." (Isaiah 45:6-7).


"Out of the mouth of the Most High proceeds not EVIL and good?" (Lam. 3:38).


"…and experience of EVIL has God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Old Testament).


"…shall there be EVIL IN A CITY and the LORD has not done it?" (Amos 3:6).

Need I continue? The Devil does not work independently of God nothing does...

 

[Dream]

Happy to see that you know nothing is greater than God, but you still are saying God would allow a rebellious powerful being. Completely made up; and only recently among Christians. The development of this has been proceeding for several centuries, but it is time to bring it to an end. It is harmful.

God creates evil, but only in the sense of the word 'disaster' (Strong's) This distinction between the old KJV word 'evil' and modern movie 'evil' is very important! God is spiritual, incorruptible and pure, but man lives through flesh and blood. God does not create 'evil' in the modern sense of that word. The judgment of God is against the un-spiritual nature of man, which God does not share. God battles in humankind against the flesh. That God creates disaster does not in any way imply God could be subject to the flesh's desires! The entire Bible stresses this! You can think of God as a concept and not be far off. Concepts are a good representation of how we perceive the spiritual, since it is conceptual to us rather than physical. Desires on the other hand are concrete -- the wisdom of the world. "This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish." In other words the spiritual wisdom of God opposes envy, lying, self glorification, or the devilish. The devil is within our biological construction, not a rebelling angel.

In English 'Evil' often refers to lusts etc., but God cannot be tempted nor tempts anyone. God is spirit literally meaning 100% spirit -- perhaps destructive and creative but not fleshly. Flesh desires are expressly human and separate from spiritual ones, which are attributed only to God, which is the whole point. "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." You are a child of the devil (the flesh) or you are a child of God (a spirit absolutely disinterested in fleshly desires). The spiritual child of God battles with the fleshly desires within, wherever they oppose spiritual aims.

 

[Azure24]

...but you still are saying God would allow a rebellious powerful being...

If I have said this, then please quote me. The Devil is not rebellious, God has no enemies.

Always remember, Satan never operates beyond his God-given parameters as we will see in the case of Job.
God gave Satan charge over Job, his body, and all his possessions, to try him severely before God:

"And the Lord said unto SATAN, Behold, he [Job] is in your hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6).

It was GOD’S idea to severely try Job, not Satan’s. But Satan took strict orders from God as to just how he could try Job. Satan got permission from God at each and every step of this severe trying of Job. Do we think God does it differently today? Do we think Satan now has "free reign"- "free will?" Do we think that God "changes?" Nonsense: "For I am the LORD, I change not…" (Mal. 3:6).

Why David even prayed for God to use Satan in judging his enemies:

"Set you a wicked man over him: and let SATAN stand at his right hand" (Psalm 109:6).

(The Devil) Completely made up; and only recently among Christians.

Oh really? recently among Christians? Just read the Bible...

"Ye [Gk: ‘all’ of you] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not [does not stand] in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not" (John 8:44-45).


Satan is the Serpent in the garden...



"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and DUST SHALL YOU EAT all the days of your life" (Gen. 3:14).



This is, of course a parable. That "serpent" in the garden was none other tha...


…that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world…" (Rev. 12:9).



Notice how "dust shall you eat" is in capitals in the previous quote.


DUST represents man...


"…for DUST you are, and unto DUST shall you return" (Gen. 3:19).

When God told the serpent devil Satan that he would eat DUST, He was telling him that he would eat MAN (adam). And this is exactly what Peter tells us in his epistle:

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Gk: swallow down/eat]" (I Pet. 5:8).

Satan dines and thrives on the meat of the "carnal [Greek: sarx; flesh] mind [which] is enmity [hostility/hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).

Satan does not seek to devour everyone for food; only those who are carnally [fleshly] minded represent a great steak dinner to him.

Why he even had King David for dinner...

"And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (I Chron. 21:1).

...God creates evil, but only in the sense of the word 'disaster' (Strong's) This distinction between the old KJV word 'evil' and modern movie 'evil' is very important! God is spiritual, incorruptible and pure, but man lives through flesh and blood. God does not create 'evil' in the modern sense of that word. The judgment of God is against the un-spiritual nature of man, which God does not share. God battles in humankind against the flesh. That God creates disaster does not in any way imply God could be subject to the flesh's desires! The entire Bible stresses this! You can think of God as a concept and not be far off. Concepts are a good representation of how we perceive the spiritual, since it is conceptual to us rather than physical. Desires on the other hand are concrete -- the wisdom of the world. "This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish." In other words the spiritual wisdom of God opposes envy, lying, self glorification, or the devilish. The devil is within our biological construction, not a rebelling angel.

NOTE: I do not (that is NOT) believe that the Devil was once this happy God loving - angel that fell from grace (I once made a thread on this some time ago perhaps you may want to read it). God MADE the Devil, God KNEW man would sin in the garden (however the latter is another matter altogether). The fleshly desires of man were given to us from God and so is EVIL. To state other wise is blasphemous. Are you putting God in the same position as a teacher who has no control of a classroom of children.

"And He arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, PEACE, BE STILL. And the wind ceased, and there was a GREAT CALM. And He said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? How is it that ye have no faith? [How is it that Christendom has NO FAITH?] And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of Man is this, that even the WIND AND THE SEA OBEY HIM?" (Mark 4:39-41).



Did you know that the entire Bible is a parable? This quote has more than one meaning. See if you can found it with this hint.
Do we think that Jesus no longer can make "the wind and the sea OBEY Him?"


"And the SEA gave up the dead [spiritually dead] which were in it [these spiritually dead are also called, "raging waves of the sea" who are "foaming out their own shame" Jude 13] …and they were judged every man according to their works… And whosoever was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).


Yes, the sea represents people whence the term "seam of people".