Explain to me this verse
- Thread starter Paradoxe
- Start date
V
voiceofwood
Guest
I wait with abated breath
First stab...Christ was contained on earth in an earthly meat suit...
Oh...I was gonna add....like us.... but I get in trouble when I make references of oneness...
Hi Paradoxe —
John's Gospel clearly affirms the unity of Father and Son, but also affirms Himself as God's active agency. (It affirms the Holy Spirit in the same way.)
An all-encompassing understanding is beyond us, but there are many analogies that point towards the mystery. The relation between being and act, for example, God is, and Christ makes the way He is visible. Or will and intellect.
The Fathers called God the Father the arche anarchos: Principle without Principle (that is, there is no governing principle higher than God), and the Son (following John) the arche: the Principle. Logos says the same thing.
For John, Jesus Christ is not God in a man, but God as a man.
John's Gospel clearly affirms the unity of Father and Son, but also affirms Himself as God's active agency. (It affirms the Holy Spirit in the same way.)
An all-encompassing understanding is beyond us, but there are many analogies that point towards the mystery. The relation between being and act, for example, God is, and Christ makes the way He is visible. Or will and intellect.
The Fathers called God the Father the arche anarchos: Principle without Principle (that is, there is no governing principle higher than God), and the Son (following John) the arche: the Principle. Logos says the same thing.
For John, Jesus Christ is not God in a man, but God as a man.
From what i understand , John have different interpretation of Jesus true nature then other gospels, but we should go back to the how christens explain the trinity : " the trinity : it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds") and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, CO-EQUAL, co-eternal and consubstantial, and "each is God, whole and entire".
So from my perspective this is a conundrum, because Jesus stated father is greater then him and trinity say father, son , the holy spirit are co-equal.
When you say god have a personality , u can't said that because u just admit that god is beyond our understanding so every explanation that u stated about god is a theory
So from my perspective this is a conundrum, because Jesus stated father is greater then him and trinity say father, son , the holy spirit are co-equal.
When you say god have a personality , u can't said that because u just admit that god is beyond our understanding so every explanation that u stated about god is a theory
V
voiceofwood
Guest
God, being omnipotent must necessarily have both infinite and finite potentialities. With our finite minds we cannot understand his infinite nature but can his finite. Thus though one, God must necessarily appear to have two natures. An understandable one and an uncomprehendable one
In the beginning was the understandable nature of God, and the understandable nature of God was with God, and the understandable nature of God was God
In the beginning was the understandable nature of God, and the understandable nature of God was with God, and the understandable nature of God was God
From the beginning of time, god was addressing humankind throw he's prophets, telling us how we should proceed in this life , and GOD already proof his existence throw his creation so from my angle of view we humans can't even understand blackholes which they are created by god the all mighty , so tell me how we going to understand god.
God can't be a man quoting Numbers 23:19 : God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
So god was clear in this verse god can't be a man , and god don't change his mind so when christens said god incarnated into Jesus I said to my self why god change his mind ?
God can't be a man quoting Numbers 23:19 : God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
So god was clear in this verse god can't be a man , and god don't change his mind so when christens said god incarnated into Jesus I said to my self why god change his mind ?
V
voiceofwood
Guest
I would say not different, but more emphatic. John has the greater insight. In Matthew, Mark and Luke, they talk of miracles, John calls them 'signs'.
Yes. The more accurate term is 'circumincession', because, as the old adage goes, the Father is eternally Father, the Son eternally Son, the Holy Spirit likewise. There was never a time when the Father was, but the Son and Holy Spirit were not. They are one and the same. The differences are external to their common divine nature.
It's a human thing. A father isn't a father without a son (or daughter), any more than a son or daughter can be, without a father. But in human terms, father and son are co-equal and consubstantial, in terms of their nature — they're both human, and equal in that regard. So we always think of the father being first, but really as soon as the father is father, the son is son.
Remember that God is not governed by time. In that way, we cannot say that God became Father, or that there was God before there was Trinity.
These are complex issues ... I hope my style does not confound you. I'm guessing English isn't your first language?
But God has made Himself known to us, and we can ascribe qualities to God accordingly. If we couldn't we couldn't say 'God'.
God words are permanent , when GOD stat something in his scriptures it's eternal , there is no other explanation for that so when GOD said he can't be a man it's a permanent statement from god .
Quoting psalm 119:160 : Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
So, god can't be a man is the truth there is no other explanation
Quoting psalm 119:160 : Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
So, god can't be a man is the truth there is no other explanation
I totally understand Thomas, my native language is arabic but i can speak french / english / spanish / and i'm learning hebrew so don't worry you are not confounding me , i hope that you understood me in the previous posts, my style is simple and critical
V
voiceofwood
Guest
Where there is apparent conflict between scripture the words of Jesus take precedence over all over scripture both prior and latter
Scripture is written by men in communion with God but only Jesus lived a sin free life and therefore only Jesus is in perfect communion with God, hence his words take precedence
Gospels is written by men also not even prophets and they weren't eyewitness in a lot of passages
Luke himself clearly states that he was no follower of Jesus. Nor could Matthew have been a follower of Jesus, for he depends almost entirely on Mark for the skeleton of his story. And Mark could not have been a follower of Jesus because the narrative portions of his story are made up almost entirely out of the Old Testament, while the sayings appear to be common to the Hellenistic milieu. " (Quoted from a debate)
Father Son Holy Spirit
G!d Christ Holy Ghost
First Cause Second Cause Third Cause
Mind Thought Action
G!d Christ Holy Ghost
First Cause Second Cause Third Cause
Mind Thought Action
V
voiceofwood
Guest
Clearly you have not heard of the Aramaic Gospel of Matthew or recent findings that date the Gospels earlier than previously thought
links are always helpful
Yes.
Ooh, no. It's G!d G!d G!d.
'Father' and 'Son' define external relations, not the actual nature. (God's nature is divine and One); Mans' nature is human, and human nature is common to everyone, but their relations map a web of causation, they map to the Cause, but it stops there.
The Trinity is the map of the Cause, for the One must contain both 'itself' and the other, else no subsequent relation or union is possible.
As for relations, a man must be a son, but need not necessarily be a father. He may, or may not, be be husband or brother or uncle or nephew, but he's no more or less himself, no more or less human. But the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. God is not more God than the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is tricky to pin down. He's 'The Anonymous One', as one of my lecturer's used to say. He is that which underpins all relations. He is in the relating, not in the relation. The Logos — the Son — is the Principle, the blueprint of all Being, if you like. The Holy Spirit realises the blueprint and brings it to life.
Well from an external, time-bound, viewpoint of Biblical revelation, yes. The Father is the Cause of the Son, and the Son is the Cause of the Holy Spirit. But that's to do with the nature of their self-disclosure — the Father revealed the Son, and the Son revealed the Holy Spirit — but they are eternally One, and thus the Cause is the same. How they effect that cause is, again, external.
Again, according to the Tradition, it's the Holy Spirit first, as Mark and John and Paul explicitly assert (and the entire New Testament does so implicitly), as it is only 'in' the Holy Spirit (First Cause) that we can see the Son (Second), and only in the Son can we see the Father (Third). It is the Holy Spirit who reveals the Son to us, and the Son who reveals the Father. (Excuse my lack of Biblical reference, but they're all quite well rehearsed in this debate.)
But in The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are coequal and coeternal, coessential and consubstantial. One essence, one substance, one nature, and thus one cause.
Well ... the Orthodox are vary wary of such overtly anthropomorphic analogies. They see it as defining God according to ourselves. Augustine said 'Memory, Intellect and Will', but they don't like that either, for the same reason.
The one thing to remember is that these are all inadequate analogies, and some are more inaccurate than others!