Salvation and Belief

Does not idolatry = to have God as discernible? [see with one's eyes]
No, I don't think so.

I am not in the buying and selling antiques field FYI.

I meant that a false god idol [aka trinkets etal] embued by whomever with whatever pastiche they choose ie:
an MS 13 Gang member explains Santa Muerto cigar & tequila offerings
---there's an idol and it's in the likeness of "whomever with whatever purpose" is a contrivance.

But there is ye ol
There's the roof,
Here's the steeple,
open the door,
and there's the people
 
The Transcendental Loving Attitude

“By Me, in My un-manifested form,
this entire universe is pervaded.
All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.

And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me.
Behold My mystic opulence!
Although I am the maintainer of all living entities and
although I am everywhere,

I am not a part of this cosmic manifestation,
for My Self
is the very source of creation.

Understand that as the mighty wind,
blowing everywhere,
rests always in the sky,
all created beings rest in Me.”


From the Gita [Chap 9 verse 4 to 6]
Translated from the Sanskrit by
A.C. Bhakti-vedanta Swami (1896-1977).

The following purport of the above verses are
by A.C. Bhakti-vedanta Swami:

The Supreme Personality of Godhead is not perceivable
through the gross material senses. It is said, Lord Shree Krishna’s
name, fame, pastimes, etc., cannot be understood by material
senses. Only to one who is engaged in pure devotional service
under proper guidance is He revealed.

In the Brahma-samhitaa (5.38) it is stated,
prema-aïjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilo-chanena
santah sadaiva hrida-yeshu viloka-yanti …
one can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead,
Govinda, always within himself and outside himself if
one has developed the transcendental loving
attitude towards Him.

Thus for people in general He is not visible.
Here it is said that although He is all-pervading,
everywhere present, He is not conceivable by the material
senses. This is indicated here by the word avyakta-moortinaa.

But actually, although we cannot see Him, everything is resting
in Him. As we have discussed in the Seventh Chapter, the
entire material cosmic manifestation is only a combination
of His two different energies—the superior, spiritual energy
and the inferior, material energy. Just as the sunshine is spread
all over the universe, the energy of the Lord is spread all over
the creation, and everything is resting in that energy.

Yet one should not conclude that because He is spread all over
He has lost His personal existence. To refute such an argument
the Lord says, “I am everywhere, and everything is in Me, but
still I am aloof.” For example, a king heads a government which
is but the manifestation of the king’s energy; the different
governmental departments are nothing but the energies of the king,
and each department is resting on the king’s power. But still
one cannot expect the king to be present in every department
personally. That is a crude example.

Similarly, all the manifestationsthat we see and everything that
exists, both in this material world and in the spiritual world,
are resting on the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
The creation takes place by the diffusion of His different energies,
and, as stated in the Bhagavad-geetaa:
vishta-bhya-aham idam kritsnam

He is everywhere present by His personal representation,
the diffusion of His different energies.

The Lord says that everything is resting on Him (mat-sthaani
sarva-bhootaani). This should not be misunderstood. The Lord is not
directly concerned with the maintenance and sustenance of this
material manifestation.

Sometimes we see a picture of Atlas holding the globe on his
shoulders; he seems to be very tired, holding this great earthly
planet. Such an image should not be entertained in connection with
Krishna’s upholding this created universe. He says that although
everything is resting on Him, He is aloof. The planetary systems
are floating in space, and this space is the energy of the Supreme
Lord. But He is different from space. He is differently situated.

Therefore the Lord says, “Although they are situated on My
inconceivable energy, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead

I am aloof from them.” This is the inconceivable opulence of the Lord.

In the Nirukti Vedic dictionary it is said,
yuj-yate nena dur-ghate-shu kaarye-shu …

“The Supreme Lord is performing inconceivably wonderful
pastimes, displaying His energy.”
His person is full of different potent energies, and
His determination is itself actual fact.
In this way the Personality of Godhead is to be understood.
We may think of doing something, but there are so many
impediments, and sometimes it is not possible to do as we like.

But when Krishna wants to do something, simply by His willing,
everything is performed so perfectly that one cannot imagine
how it is being done. The Lord explains this fact: although He
is the maintainer and sustainer of the entire material manifestation,

He does not touch this material manifestation. Simply by His
supreme will, everything is created, everything is sustained,
everything is maintained, and everything is annihilated. There is
no difference between His mind and Himself (as there is a
difference between ourselves and our present material mind)
because He is absolute spirit. Simultaneously the Lord is present
in everything; yet the common man cannot understand how He
is also present personally. He is different from this material
manifestation, yet everything is resting on Him. This is explained
here as yogam aish-varam, the mystic power of the Supreme
Personality of Godhead.

For the ordinary person it is almost inconceivable how the
huge material creation is resting in Him. But the Lord is giving
an example which may help us to understand. The sky may be
the biggest manifestation we can conceive. And in that sky the
wind or air is the biggest manifestation in the cosmic world.

The movement of the air influences the movements of everything.
But although the wind is great, it is still situated within the sky;
the wind is not beyond the sky. Similarly, all the wonderful
cosmic manifestations are existing by the supreme will of God,
and all of them are subordinate to that supreme will. As we
generally say, not a blade of grass moves without the will of the
Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thus everything is moving
under His will: by His will everything is being created,
everything is being maintained, and everything is being
annihilated. Still He is aloof from everything, as the sky is
always aloof from the activities of the wind.

In the Upanishads it is stated, yad-bheeshaa vaatah pavate
“It is out of the fear of the Supreme Lord that the wind is blowing.”
(Taittireeya Upanishad 2.8.1)

In the Bhriad-aaran-yaka Upanishad (3.8.9) it is stated,
etasya vaa aksharasya prashaasane gaargi soorya-chandra-masau
vidhritau tishthata etasya vaa aksh-arasya prasha-asane gaargi
dyaav-aaphthivyau vidhri-tau tishtha-tah.

“By the supreme order, under the superintendence of the
Supreme Personality of Godhead, the moon, the sun, and the
other great planets are moving.”

In the Brahma-samhitaa (5.52) also it is stated,
yac-cakshur esha savitaa sakala-grahaaëaam
raajaa samasta-sura-moortir ashesha-tejaah
yasyaajïayaa bhramati sambhrita-kaala-cakro
govindam aadi-purusham tam aham bhajaami

This is a description of the movement of the sun. It is said
that the sun is considered to be one of the eyes of the
Supreme Lord and that it has immense potency to diffuse
heat and light. Still it is moving in its prescribed orbit by
the order and the supreme will of Govinda. So, from the
Vedic literature we can find evidence that this material
manifestation, which appears to us to be very wonderful
and great, is under the complete control of the Supreme
Personality of Godhead. This will be further explained in
the later verses of this chapter.
 
It is said that the sun is considered to be one of the eyes of the
Supreme Lord and that it has immense potency to diffuse
heat and light..

"It is said that" seems to be a favourite Asian phrase. I hear it in the Muslim Asian community quite often :)
Never has impressed me .. it holds no authority.

Anybody could have said it, for any reason :)
 
I'm still in the process of studying duality in Islam, but I believe it also resolves the issue of duality too. Here I'll quote the approach of the sixth Imam - Ja'far al-Sadiq:

"Servitude [yielding and receptivity, mirror, diversity, essence, yin, manifestation, microcosm, subjectivity] is a jewel whose ultimate reality is lordship [acting and activity, light, unity, existence, yang, realization, macrocosm, objectivity]. So what is missing in servitude is found in lordship; what is hidden in lordship is attained in servitude."​

Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa'i has apparently produced some heavy commentary on this quote in order to resolve issues of duality. Anyway, here's what one author says about his application of the above thought process:

"At each stage in the dialectical ascent of objective logic, nexal consciouness intuits the matter behind the form of the fact that is being meditated in its relation to some other fact. At each stage of the vertical movement, within each topos (rutbah) one encounters contrary opposites in dialectical contrast. What is intuited as matter is found to still manifest itself with a dialectical structure of continuity and discreteness, of existence and essence, of being and becoming, of choice and determination, of space and time, and so forth. But with persistent application of cosmological meditation on the horizons (macrocosms, large scale universes of discourse) and on the selves (microcosms, small scale universes of discourse) eventually the locus of prehension that is the blaze-heart (fuʾād) opens and the goal of cognizance of God is achieved.

Here a new, phenomenological topos is entered, corresponding to a very special universe of discourse (category). Every dialectical contrast vanishes, and every attribute of perfection stands in a dialectical unity (coincidentia oppositorum) with, not its contrary opposite, but rather its
contradictory opposite. God is Far in His Not-Farness and Not-Far in His Farness; God is Near in His Not-Nearness and Not-Near in his Nearness; as expressed so often in the teachings of Ahlulbayt (ṣ). This phenomenological topos of cognizance is, at once, the reality of one’s self qua manifestation and the manifestation of God qua reality. In this topos the fact corresponding to “Whoso has known one’s self, thereby has known one’s Lord” is, at once, both realized and manifested. When one steps out of the topos of cognizance and looks back at it, one sees that this very act of cognizing God through the blaze-heart leaves a very precise shadow on the mind as propositional truth (nafs al amr): Between God and creation there is no continuity; between God and creation there is no discontinuity. This corresponds exactly to two things: It corresponds to the way that God describes Himself literally in the Qurʾān and the aḥādīth of Ahlulbayt (ṣ); and to the Way that God describes Himself cosmologically, via the topos of cognizance, to the core unity of reality and manifestation within the servant. The core unity of reality and manifestation within the servant constitutes the very describing of God to the servant, via the blaze-heart of that servant that is, in fact, that very servant. That topos of cognizance is recognized once every distinction and dialectical contrast within the microcosm is bracketed. Put another way: This phenomenological topos of the cognizance of the metaphysical reality of the self constitutes both God’s description of Himself to the self as well as the very reality of the self. When one steps out of the immediate phenomenological presence of the topos of cognizance and looks back upon it, the servant sees that the topos of cognizance stands in perfect correspondence to each node in the four-part system in which the journey of presuppositionless meditation began."
Kinda interesting.
 
It seems that you are content on following something "which seems good to you", without any particular authority.
I have been a Muslim for around 45 years now (I became a Muslim in my 20's), and the idea of following something "blindly" i.e. without divine authority, appears to me to be an unreliable path to tread.

Do I think that it is possible to be righteous without genuine, specific divine guidance? No, I don't.
Why? Well, just look at how the secular world has different opinions and laws, constantly changing over time. We are not smart enough to always get it right :)

And to me it seems that you are content to give your own pass mark to one particular "revelation" and then consider "righteousness" to be following the instructions to the letter. Good luck.

It does seem barely credible to me that having had what you have called a Christian upbringing and education, that you have then actually molded yourself upon the NT version of the Pharisee. No offence meant. But you choose Law over Mercy and Grace.

But fear not. Amida is there to pick up the pieces. As Shinran observed so profoundly:-

Even the good person attains birth in the Pure Land, how much moreso the evil person
 
I'm still in the process of studying duality in Islam, but I believe it also resolves the issue of duality too. Here I'll quote the approach of the sixth Imam - Ja'far al-Sadiq:

"Servitude [yielding and receptivity, mirror, diversity, essence, yin, manifestation, microcosm, subjectivity] is a jewel whose ultimate reality is lordship [acting and activity, light, unity, existence, yang, realization, macrocosm, objectivity]. So what is missing in servitude is found in lordship; what is hidden in lordship is attained in servitude."​

Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa'i has apparently produced some heavy commentary on this quote in order to resolve issues of duality. Anyway, here's what one author says about his application of the above thought process:


Kinda interesting.

Thank you for posting this. Beyond me in many ways, and one Dogen (or his ilk) is enough for me. But good to know that the "pursuit" of clarity can be found in all Faiths
 
It seems we are "in the dark" if we do not subscribe to an authorised declaration of an incomprehensible Deity, wholly other, who nevertheless deems to give voice to a set of commandments that we must follow to become, in His eyes, righteous. He need not do so, in fact has no need to do much at all, yet choses to act in such manner.

Obviously, many words in there in need of clarity. Which have been the subject of various threads......what "authority" being one, and just who declares it to be authentic. Opinions differ!

Well, I prefer the "darkness" of creation itself. I concur with John Keats, who said that he had never been able to conceive how anything can be known for truth by consecutive reasoning.

Some might ask....who is John Keats, ask again what authority he has, dismiss him as he has none. So be it. For me he is/was a human being much like myself, and I will consider his words.

Creation for me is the ultimate revelation. The earth itself is fertile, and brings forth fruits of itself. Our Cosmos is always and everywhere potentially displaying "the liberative qualities of spatiality and temporality." It has a natural healing power, and thus no human being need wait for a missionary carrying a book to know the fullness of God, His mercy or His Grace.
 
And to me it seems that you are content to give your own pass mark to one particular "revelation" and then consider "righteousness" to be following the instructions to the letter. Good luck.

Not really .. I give the "pass-mark" to the Torah, the Psalms, the Gospel & particularly the Qur'an.
The Qur'an is the latest reliable revelation which confirms the truth of the previous ones.

As regards following it to the letter, I would like to, but alas am not a saint :)
Furthermore, whilst it contains the most important parts of law etc, it is NOT intended to make us into characterless robots.
G-d has endowed us with intelligence, and He knows we have to make decisions every day .. from world leaders to the pauper.
Some people follow 1000's of hadiths as if they were Qur'an .. they are not :)
 
Creation for me is the ultimate revelation. The earth itself is fertile, and brings forth fruits of itself. Our Cosmos is always and everywhere potentially displaying "the liberative qualities of spatiality and temporality." It has a natural healing power, and thus no human being need wait for a missionary carrying a book to know the fullness of God, His mercy or His Grace.

I agree with you that the universe could be said to be "a revelation", in as much that it has many signs that we can acknowledge as wonderful, beautiful, perfectly formed etc, and we can learn from nature itself .. so yes :)

..you have still ignored my point about nations and civilizations all over the world with differing values and opinons .. now, and throughout time.
How can we know which values are right? If we just follow nature, for example, we could behave like snakes, lions or hawks :)
 
Not really .. I give the "pass-mark" to the Torah, the Psalms, the Gospel & particularly the Qur'an.
The Qur'an is the latest reliable revelation which confirms the truth of the previous ones.

As regards following it to the letter, I would like to, but alas am not a saint :)
Furthermore, whilst it contains the most important parts of law etc, it is NOT intended to make us into characterless robots.
G-d has endowed us with intelligence, and He knows we have to make decisions every day .. from world leaders to the pauper.
Some people follow 1000's of hadiths as if they were Qur'an .. they are not :)

OK, you give the passmark to a particular series of revelation. Which really changes little given what I posted. In effect you pick and choose, apparently excluding much that would, in my eyes, point towards Grace and Mercy as being fundamental. Yet in doing this you yet appeal to an outside authority that legitimizes your choices.

No, we are not talking about robots.
 
..you have still ignored my point about nations and civilizations all over the world with differing values and opinons .. now, and throughout time.
How can we know which values are right? If we just follow nature, for example, we could behave like snakes, lions or hawks :)

And as I see it you continually ignore virtually every point I make, picking and choosing, avoiding......

Your point:- many scholars seek the underlying realities of the various nations and civilisations. And make a good job of it in my opinion. Joseph Campbell for instance. In doing so they find a fundamental unity beyond any particular "revelation". And also, in my opinion, how to "fulfill" that unity. Which is not by seeking the "righteousness" of obedience to specific instructions, however successful we consider ourselves to be.
 
How can we know which values are right? If we just follow nature, for example, we could behave like snakes, lions or hawks :)

I would distinguish between "values" and specific instructions, such as how many times to pray each day. "Values" to me are often found to be very similar across various civilisations - the so called "Golden Rule" for instance. Often other values such as mercy and forgiveness are found in many places, many texts. My reading of history is that much mischief has been caused by those unable to differentiate in the way I am doing here.

I have delved into the genesis of various texts. I have always been unable to shift the wheat from the chaff. Applying various criteria, all the texts can be questioned as to authenticity in much the same way. You have managed to sort the wheat from the chaff, the words of mere mortals from the words given direct by the Almighty. You seek to fulfill them. Good.
 
Does not idolatry = to have God as discernible? [see with one's eyes]


I am not in the buying and selling antiques field FYI.

I meant that a false god idol [aka trinkets etal] embued by whomever with whatever pastiche they choose ie:
an MS 13 Gang member explains Santa Muerto cigar & tequila offerings
---there's an idol and it's in the likeness of "whomever with whatever purpose" is a contrivance.

But there is ye ol
There's the roof,
Here's the steeple,
open the door,
and there's the people

We are led to Believe a Lie
When we see not Thro the Eye......
God Appears and God is Light
To those poor Souls who dwell in Night
But does a Human Form Display
To those who Dwell in Realms of day.

(William Blake, from "Auguries of Innocence" - Blake's capitals)
 
OK, you give the passmark to a particular series of revelation. Which really changes little given what I posted. In effect you pick and choose, apparently excluding much that would, in my eyes, point towards Grace and Mercy as being fundamental. Yet in doing this you yet appeal to an outside authority that legitimizes your choices..

Yes .. an "outside" authority .. mankind can't be trusted :)
 
.. "Values" to me are often found to be very similar across various civilisations - the so called "Golden Rule" for instance. Often other values such as mercy and forgiveness are found in many places, many texts..

Agreed .. the golden rule is very important indeed.
In Islam .. "Nobody will have a complete faith unless he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself" :)

My reading of history is that much mischief has been caused by those unable to differentiate in the way I am doing here..

That has little to do with religion, and more to do with mankind's shortcomings.
 
Agreed .. the golden rule is very important indeed.
In Islam .. "Nobody will have a complete faith unless he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself" :)

IMO, True "religion" begins when we seek to fulfill the Golden Rule. And recognise our failure.
 
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