Deism, a badger's point of view.

[RJM]

You and I, we both are limited, not knowing that much about our parts and functions. Yes?
How much do you know about particular cells in your, say, kidneys?

But why should this be true of limitless deity?Can what is limitless be limited in knowledge?

The idea that God has built everything with us in mind ...now that does seem to be a stretch ..to me.

That's not the argument. If I was a flea on a dog, how would the argument that a limitless deity could be aware of me at every level equate to the argument that the limitless deity created everything with me, a little flea in mind? Or with me alone in mind? Or then -- perhaps it did?

Spirit.....do you believe in spirits, those which seers and mediums can communicate with?

That's not the way I used the word.

 

[RJM]

Maybe we are of such little import that the whole does not notice us?

And maybe it does

Some people believe that their God even looks like us, made everything for us, has prepared a heaven for some of us.......now that could be described as a kind of megalomania.

Some people believe in blue-eye blow dry haircut Jesus son of Joseph and Mary Christ. How is it relevant? Why can't a limitless deity know and respond to all this too?

just can see that Mother Nature rules around here ( this universe) and that's a clear fact.

Doesn't mean there isn't more?

 

[badger]

But why should this be true of limitless deity?Can what is limitless be limited in knowledge?

Because to imagine that a Deity which is 'everything, force and anything else' is even bothered with this universe, let alone a species of life on this small planet amongst trillions is a fairly good description of megalomania, imo. And the idea that this being knows about the next war, or storm, or super nova, is pushing the boundaries of reason imo.

That's not the argument. If I was a flea on a dog, how would the argument that a limitless deity could be aware of me at every level equate to the argument that the limitless deity created everything with me, a little flea in mind? Or with me alone in mind? Or then -- perhaps it did?

It has become part of the argument..... and 'If you was a flea...' means to me that you would be a part of the Whole. If you was a lump of rock you would also be part of the whole. ........... and you would be just as important as any cell in a human being, imo.

That's not the way I used the word.

That looks as if you might not pay much attention about spirits, then. Or do you?
People make mention of various kinds of spirits, so I often ask if they believe in them.

 

[badger]

And maybe it does

Lots of people hope so! The 'We must be special..... we might look a bit like Him...... we'll have an after life, but nothing else...... ' kind of belief?

By the way, I think we do look a bit like the Whole of everything, if broken down to smallest particles all that is there is a particle with orbiting bodies surrounding it.......... so, yes to that.

Some people believe in blue-eye blow dry haircut Jesus son of Joseph and Mary Christ. How is it relevant? Why can't a limitless deity know and respond to all this too?

And that is part of those folk's ideas about Deity....... I'm simply telling here about my ideas about deity.

Doesn't mean there isn't more?

Not here, not in this place.......... I think Mother Nature rules here, and that doesn't seem such a strange idea to me.

 

[RJM]

And the idea that this being knows about the next war, or storm, or super nova, is pushing the boundaries of reason imo.

This deity would contain time. It would not be limited by time or space. It might perceive all events past and future as simultaneous? Is it justified to propose a limitless deity, and then proceed to impose upon it limitations of human reason?

If you was a lump of rock you would also be part of the whole. ........... and you would be just as important as any cell in a human being, imo.

This is to infer such a limitless deity is not capable of recognising a difference between Einstein and a rock? The deity might not attach more importance to a human than to a flea, but it would recognise them as different entities? I believe the Earth and sun and planets are living entities

 

[RJM]

Not here, not in this place.......... I think Mother Nature rules here, and that doesn't seem such a strange idea to me.

Perhaps, but to me the greater wheel of Spirit turns the lesser wheel of nature, and is not turned by it. The dimension of nature is part of and dependent upon a greater system? It's Plato's cave. I believe that system has laws that may seem opposite to those of nature, and becomes partly accessible to man, when man looks beyond nature

I'm simply telling here about my ideas about deity.

Sorry @badger
By discussing your ideas I am not trying to dismiss your ideas

 

[RJM]

@badger
I apologise if my tone sounds combative, nor do I wish to derail your thread ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

Because to imagine that a Deity which is 'everything, force and anything else' is even bothered with this universe, let alone a species of life on this small planet amongst trillions is a fairly good description of megalomania, imo. And the idea that this being knows about the next war, or storm, or super nova, is pushing the boundaries of reason imo.

Why wouldn't the Creator of the universe be concerned with what it creates?
We only perceive a tiny fraction of what there is to perceive.
Even when it comes to worldly knowledge, it is not possible to learn it all in a few decades of life.

We perceive time as something that "passes", but Einstein showed us all how this is only a perception,
and is relative to space and motion. It is entirely plausible that our Creator is not subject to the limitations of time and space that we perceive.

You see 'time and space' as definitive, whereas it is not.
Some people suggest that only mankind has 'soul', whereas it is plausible that the whole creation is aware to some degree.
This includes other creatures, and even trees, plants and mountain rocks.
'soul' is not dependent on biological systems. It is non-physical by definition.

 

[wil]

Why wouldn't the Creator of the universe be concerned with what it creates?

See that would make sense to me...concern and love for your creations...

But demanding worship? Lol. Not so much.

 

[RJM]

Perhaps there are gods of worlds and greater gods of dimensional arcs of existence -- and greater gods beyond them still -- all beings and souls and conditions ever changing, forever moving upward toward becoming one with the final, limitless, eternal and unreachable ONE -- the closer the greater fulfillment?

Nothing is ever lost really, it just feels that way sometimes?

(edited ...)

 

[RJM]

How to find my way, the way of my own soul? Perhaps God speaks to every soul?

 

[muhammad_isa]

But demanding worship? Lol. Not so much.

If G-d had wished for us all to worship Him, then He wouldn't have created us with any choice.
It is our choice what we do with ourselves.
G-d does not need our worship. Our worship is for the benefit of mankind.

Individual contemplation, and collective worship have a positive influence on us.
The converse is also true. eg. ignoring righteousness and displaying arrogant behaviour.

 

[wil]

So you don't believe God withholds bonuses if his ego isn't sated by adulation?

Is that not a cornerstone for abrahamics?

 

[RabbiO]

Is that not a cornerstone for abrahamics?

Not in my neighborhood.

 

[wil]

Not in my neighborhood.

Your G!d doesnt demand prayer from followers?

 

[badger]

This deity would contain time. It would not be limited by time or space. It might perceive all events past and future as simultaneous? Is it justified to propose a limitless deity, and then proceed to impose upon it limitations of human reason?

Deism imposes nothing upon the Whole of Everything. Nothing at all. Expects nothing from it. Nor does it spin special treatment for humans.
And there are limitations upon human reason. Look at what human reason has done tro this planet, for instance.

This is to infer such a limitless deity is not capable of recognising a difference between Einstein and a rock? The deity might not attach more importance to a human than to a flea, but it would recognise them as different entities? I believe the Earth and sun and planets are living entities

Yep........ not capable or not interested, I guess.
And 'Yes', everything has life........ everything. And Mother Nature is the resident overlord in this universe.

 

[badger]

Perhaps, but to me the greater wheel of Spirit turns the lesser wheel of nature, and is not turned by it. The dimension of nature is part of and dependent upon a greater system? It's Plato's cave. I believe that system has laws that may seem opposite to those of nature, and becomes partly accessible to man, when man looks beyond nature

The Greater Wheel of Spirit? What spirit exactly? Where do you perceive this spirit?
The Chaos of Nature is what has brought this universe to this point. And it doesn't matter. All we can do is ride the waves of accident and chance, methinks, and I am content wit that.


Sorry @badger
By discussing your ideas I am not trying to dismiss your ideas[/QUOTE]
No problems....... there. It's good to shake the tree, but the fruits on this one are lean, I'm sad to say.

 

[badger]

Why wouldn't the Creator of the universe be concerned with what it creates?
We only perceive a tiny fraction of what there is to perceive.
Even when it comes to worldly knowledge, it is not possible to learn it all in a few decades of life.

Did you create your finger nails? But they are yours, aren't they?
Obviously Creationists must grasp on to the idea of a knowing, caring, aware God, but Deism is free of all that, we don't have to grab hold of much apart from the certain truth that Mother Nature rules here. Everybody must answer her demands and calls, I'm afraid to tell you.

We perceive time as something that "passes", but Einstein showed us all how this is only a perception,
and is relative to space and motion. It is entirely plausible that our Creator is not subject to the limitations of time and space that we perceive.

Entirely plausible....? The idea of a Creator is not particularly plausible imo. The Whole of Everything is so far beyond the bounds of human perception that it might just be best to take more notice of the Demands of Mother Nature, that way we might not mess up this planet quite so quickly.

You see 'time and space' as definitive, whereas it is not.

Ah ha! You now imagine that you know what I can see. You have no idea about my perceptions about time and space, Muhammad.

 

[badger]

See that would make sense to me...concern and love for your creations...

But demanding worship? Lol. Not so much.

The above was sent to another.......
But Mother Nature DOES demand many kinds of worship........ everything we know, want, love, treasure or need is a demand by Mother Nature. Look at how most of us worship bits of metal, or even intangible wealth....etc.

We're an odd bunch, us humans!

 

[RJM]

The Whole of Everything is so far beyond the bounds of human perception that it might just be best to take more notice of the Demands of Mother Nature,

What is nature? Where are the bounds of nature? Do you mean life on Earth?