The Rebels ....from the imagination of a badger
- Thread starter badger
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Ella S.
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Of course
Ella S.
Well-Known Member
I should say that, as a nonbeliever, the data that I have seems to lead to the conclusion that both of these accounts are unlikely and therefore illogical. A limitation of logic is that it is only as good as its data, however, so while that is my current conclusion it is subject to change if I learn about new data or come to find that important data that I rely on to make this conclusion turns out to be misinformation.
That said, taking this specific debate in isolation from other claims made by the two religions (as we could be here all day debating those) then I think the Muslim account that you describe above is actually more logical.
Both the Christian and the Muslim account describe Jesus being taken back into Heaven so they both share that claim. In the Christian rendition, however, there is the additional claim of a resurrection, which in itself is an extraordinary event (which hopefully is not a controversial description as it is not meant pejoratively.) Since the Christian account makes an additional, extraordinary claim, then that dramatically lowers its relative likelihood.
This said, a more comprehensive and nuanced debate over these two might reveal that the claim for a resurrection is extremely well-evidenced. This is merely a preliminary overview of two competing hypotheses. Both would still need to be tested.
The Muslim belief is that Jesus is living in heaven in the same physical body that he had here on earth, until he returns as a Muslim to kill the pigs and break the cross, and ensure equality of income -- and finally to die and be buried in the grave already prepared for him in Mecca beside that of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
"Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts)"
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:24
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:24
Can you not stick to the subject?
i.e. I'm not discussing whether Jesus died or not .. I'm talking about the significance of Jesus on the cross in the Bible, and how it is all about people's opinions .. and not Jesus' words.
I'm not challenging Christian beliefs .. just your statement that the beliefs of his death and resurrection are taught by Jesus .. that's all.
That is what the gospels say about Jesus. That is where we get all we have about Jesus, including his words. Quran and apocrypha excluded in this instance, but open to discussion.
What parts of the gospel Jesus do you like, and what parts don't you like?
No it's not.
Heaven isn't a place, as such. It is not a planet in any galaxy..
Jesus' ascension "to heaven" and his reappearance at some time in the near future will be seamless.
i.e. Jesus will not experience any time lapsed between ascension and coming back to planet earth
That is easy for God .. He is beyond time and space.
Oh, so Muslim Jesus's ascended body is not quite his material flesh body? That's easy to understand. But the same cannot be true for the resurrected body of the Christ? That's impossible to understand?No it's not.
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badger
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I was only mentioning that I had never heard that term before........ I will leave Muhammad to debate on behalf of his prophet and Allah. Muslims and Christians and all other religions should acknowledge each other's beliefs...... Obviously conversations can lead to impasse, but at that point I think that folks should step back.
badger
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The 2nd Day............. The Picket Line
At this point a great cheering could be heard far across the other side of the traders and money changer's area and it seemed like the cheering of thousands of people, rather than just Yesha's tiny group. I decided to try and make my way across the Temple Courts to find out what was happening. I thanked the family from Tiberias for their kindness and said that I must go, and they called 'Good Luck' to me as I turned and walked towards the cheering.
I was stopped and questioned many times. Some guards wanted to see if I was carrying any money, others wanted to know where I was from, or where my family were. I told them that I was from Jericho, pronouncing the name of that city as I had heard southern people speak it, because they would have known me as a Northerner if I had said a complete sentence.
Because I had no money I was released and after a long and difficult journey through the vastness of the Temple grounds I eventually reached a mass of people which formed a line right across the Temple Courts. They seemed to be stopping anybody from walking through that line.
Levite Guards were trying to break through this line in places, but being pushed back by the huge mob, and there, right in the midst of that long line was Big Simon, a head taller than anybody else, and then I saw Cephas, and Yeshua and all the others together.
As I watched a group of senior priests walked towards the line across the empty part of the huge Temple Court and as they did so they waved back theTemple guards, so I took the opportunity to run out beyond the crowd and along the front of the line until I reached my friends. Cephas snatched me in amongst them, and several of the disciples patted my shoulders and head, Big Simon's 'pat' nearly knocked me off my feet! Yeshua had attracted a massive crowd, mostly Galileans and Northerners, many of them looking very excited about the unexpected situation and most of them carrying full money pouches slung around their necks and shoulders, no doubt stolen from the floors around the traders and exchangers.
Then, as the priests approached, Yeshu walked out beyond the line and approached them. An old priest spoke to a younger stronger looking one who then called out in powerful voice.
'You've caused such damage!' Hecalled. 'You have stopped us, the Lord's priests from performing the Lord's ceremonies in the Lord's Temple! You have caused the ruin of many of our money changers and traders, and now you won't let anybody across the Temple Courts. Why have you committed these evil deeds?'
'You priests!' Yeshua called back, 'Isn't it written that this is a house of prayer for all? Yet you have turned it into a den of robbers! Shame!' The massive crowd heard him and one enormous cheer went up from the people. My ears were singing from that mighty call. Yeshu and the disciples stood their ground and no one dared to step forward to challenge them. It was as if everybody knew that Yeshu stood out there with authority and truth. We other followers would have stood forward as well, but at no time was Yeshua threatened with danger at all.
A massive and determined crowd is a fearful sight if you stand against it, so the totally unprepared priesthood did not send in their guards amongst us for fear that the crowd would turn upon them. But Yeshua had lost the initiative now as the cheering crowd found new directions of its own, and we could hear other voices calling out for outright insurrection.
Yeshua wanted peaceful demonstration which might lead to debate and discussion with the priests, but this crowd was now massive and its hatred would not have allowed peaceful negotiations. I could see that Yeshua was displeased. He had the ability to bring together a multitude of people in the very heart of the Great City, even within the Great Temple, but at the very point of his success he lost control because the multitude of people had turned into an angry mob with a mind all of its own.
Yeshua beckoned to us all and then pointed to the Temple gates and we came together into a tight group and began to push our way out towards them. It took us a long time, pushing, shoving and thrusting through the surging crowd but by sunset we had left the Temple, walked through the streets of Jerusalem unchallenged, and went back to our meeting place at Bethany.
At this point a great cheering could be heard far across the other side of the traders and money changer's area and it seemed like the cheering of thousands of people, rather than just Yesha's tiny group. I decided to try and make my way across the Temple Courts to find out what was happening. I thanked the family from Tiberias for their kindness and said that I must go, and they called 'Good Luck' to me as I turned and walked towards the cheering.
I was stopped and questioned many times. Some guards wanted to see if I was carrying any money, others wanted to know where I was from, or where my family were. I told them that I was from Jericho, pronouncing the name of that city as I had heard southern people speak it, because they would have known me as a Northerner if I had said a complete sentence.
Because I had no money I was released and after a long and difficult journey through the vastness of the Temple grounds I eventually reached a mass of people which formed a line right across the Temple Courts. They seemed to be stopping anybody from walking through that line.
Levite Guards were trying to break through this line in places, but being pushed back by the huge mob, and there, right in the midst of that long line was Big Simon, a head taller than anybody else, and then I saw Cephas, and Yeshua and all the others together.
As I watched a group of senior priests walked towards the line across the empty part of the huge Temple Court and as they did so they waved back theTemple guards, so I took the opportunity to run out beyond the crowd and along the front of the line until I reached my friends. Cephas snatched me in amongst them, and several of the disciples patted my shoulders and head, Big Simon's 'pat' nearly knocked me off my feet! Yeshua had attracted a massive crowd, mostly Galileans and Northerners, many of them looking very excited about the unexpected situation and most of them carrying full money pouches slung around their necks and shoulders, no doubt stolen from the floors around the traders and exchangers.
Then, as the priests approached, Yeshu walked out beyond the line and approached them. An old priest spoke to a younger stronger looking one who then called out in powerful voice.
'You've caused such damage!' Hecalled. 'You have stopped us, the Lord's priests from performing the Lord's ceremonies in the Lord's Temple! You have caused the ruin of many of our money changers and traders, and now you won't let anybody across the Temple Courts. Why have you committed these evil deeds?'
'You priests!' Yeshua called back, 'Isn't it written that this is a house of prayer for all? Yet you have turned it into a den of robbers! Shame!' The massive crowd heard him and one enormous cheer went up from the people. My ears were singing from that mighty call. Yeshu and the disciples stood their ground and no one dared to step forward to challenge them. It was as if everybody knew that Yeshu stood out there with authority and truth. We other followers would have stood forward as well, but at no time was Yeshua threatened with danger at all.
A massive and determined crowd is a fearful sight if you stand against it, so the totally unprepared priesthood did not send in their guards amongst us for fear that the crowd would turn upon them. But Yeshua had lost the initiative now as the cheering crowd found new directions of its own, and we could hear other voices calling out for outright insurrection.
Yeshua wanted peaceful demonstration which might lead to debate and discussion with the priests, but this crowd was now massive and its hatred would not have allowed peaceful negotiations. I could see that Yeshua was displeased. He had the ability to bring together a multitude of people in the very heart of the Great City, even within the Great Temple, but at the very point of his success he lost control because the multitude of people had turned into an angry mob with a mind all of its own.
Yeshua beckoned to us all and then pointed to the Temple gates and we came together into a tight group and began to push our way out towards them. It took us a long time, pushing, shoving and thrusting through the surging crowd but by sunset we had left the Temple, walked through the streets of Jerusalem unchallenged, and went back to our meeting place at Bethany.
badger
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Hi....... Josephus saved three friends who were taken down from their crosses and given treatment, one of them lived. We don't know how long these three men were up on crosses before salvation which is a difficulty, but Jesus had only been on the cross a few hours..... convicts could often survive and keep themselves alive up to three days, the whole idea of the punishment...a slow self torturing death in the most shameful way possible because the stripped body would continue to excrete in various ways. The Christian depiction of a fairly clean European Jesus in loincloth being crucified is far from the true picture.
For your info:-
Josephus (b. 37 C.E.) is our best literary source for the practice of crucifixion in Palestine during the Greco-Roman period. As a general in command of the Jewish forces of Galilee in the Great Revolt against Rome (66-73 C.E.), he reports his attempts to save the lives of three crucified captives by appealing directly to the Roman general Titus. One survived the cross under a physician’s care, the other two could not be saved.
Life 76
And when I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealins, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as I came back, I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician’s hands, while the third recovered.
badger
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The Third Day
That night there was much excitement among our group, but Yeshua was very distressed over losing control of the multitude. The disciples were really respectful to Yeshu, more now than ever, for today he had undertaken an action which none of them would have dared to believe was possible, and although they had been present to help him keep the Temple cleared of trade, he alone had initiated everything. At first the crowd had indeed been moved by Yeshu's appeals to them. We had never had any result like that in all the months that we had been travelling and presenting our mission and viewpoint. But as soon as the crowd had reached a certain size it simply went out of directionless control. It was agreed that the entire group would return the next day to do exactly the same thing, in the hopes that this time the disciples could disperse amongst the people to call for quiet and peaceful confrontation.
Next morning we all rose at first light and were on the road by sunrise. As we walked towards Jerusalem we passed by the fig tree that Yeshu had cursed before, and it was withered and burned, so obviously the tree's owner had come to the same decision as Yeshu about its value!
As we approached the Temple we could see that squads of Roman soldiers were stationed on every street corner, picking out people to stop and search, and the Temple itself was patrolled by large troops of Levite guards. As Yeshua walked across the Courts some people recognised him and called out to their friends, and before we had walked far we were accompanied by a large congregation.
This time Yeshua's closest disciples dispersed among the crowd in the hope of controlling it better than had happened the day before and, of course, I went with Cephas. And again we set up a picket line to disbar passing traders. It was not long before a troop of priests, this time surrounded by Levite guards, made its way directly towards Yeshua.
'See that one in the centre?' asked Cephas.
'The fattest one?' I asked.
'Yes, the fattest one. That's Caiaphas the Head Priest!,' answered Cephas. This time the crowd was more quiet and controlled, and I could hear most of what was said.
'You were here yesterday, and causing trouble.' Accused Caiaphas. 'By whose authority do you think that you can do this?'
'I'll tell you if first you will answer one simple question from me!' called Yesh, and the High Priest nodded.
'John the Immerser's work, was it from Heaven or from the people?' Yeshua cried out the question as loudly as he could.
The working people had loved and respected John the Immerser, and at mention of his name the whole congregation stilled and listened for an answer. I later learned that this was a very clever question, because if John was sent from heaven then the crowd would be furious that the priesthood had done nothing to protect him, and if from people, then 'they' were the people! Either answer, any answer, would upset them. The priests and officials just mumbled that they did not know. Yeshu stood before them, immune to their powers because he was surrounded by his own knowledge....and the multitude.
'I don't need to tell you what my authority is!', Jesus said loudly, and spread his arms and gestured to the crowd.
Yeshu spoke to the crowd in crystal clear voice and with crystal clear meaning. 'If a man planted a vineyard at great expense and then appointed tenants to work it,' he pointed to the officials and priests, '....and they then appropriated the property and all the proceeds for themselves, and beat up or killed any servants sent to collect from them, what do you think the owner should do? Eh?'
The crowd started to murmur and call out what they thought the Lord should do to the dishonest and greedy priesthood and officialdom. They had some very bloody ideas, and I heard our disciples calling for quiet so the Yesh could be heard.
'I'll tell you what the Lord and master would do!,' Spoke Yesh, 'He would come and kill those cheats and thieving tenants, and replace them!'.
At this the crowd roared approval and became more animated, calling out agreement for Yeshu's words. Cephas called for calm amongst the nearest people to us, and again I heard the other disciples holding back the people in case their agreement might turn to agitation.
The chief priest also raised his hands high to calm the crowd because of what had happened the previous day, and then beckoned to his men to come with him, away from Yesha's group. They went away to huddle together and talk. Cephas beckoned to me and then we jostled our way back to where Yeshua was waiting, just in case the priests might try to take our leader.
After a while the group of priests came back to face Yeshua and the crowd, but this time a younger priest stepped forward to speak.
'My name is Eliphaz,' he called out, 'And what is yours?'
'I am Yeshua BarYosef, of Nazareth, a handworker in wood, bone and stone!' called Yesh.
'Ah yes! You are Yeshua, who caused trouble along the Jordan, in Galilee and Prince Antipas would like to meet with you! You also tried to whip up touble in the ten cities and to the North!' Eliphaz paused for his words to have their effect upon the crowds, but there was no reaction, so he tried again.......
'Yeshua! We know you aren't swayed by men because you don't really care about them!' He now did have the crowd's attention. 'You just make speeches for the Lord! So tell us all..... should we pay taxes to Caesar or not?'
This was the priesthood's question to win back the crowd against Yeshu..... like Yeshua's question to them before, either answer would lose. 'Yes' would lose the people who hated taxation, yet 'No' would send a clear sign of rebellion to the Romans who watched and listened on the Temple Walls.
I couldn't see any way that Yeshu could answer, but he called to Eliphaz to show him a coin, who reached into his coin bag and held it high in finger and thumb. It was a silver coin but I couldn't see more than that.
Yeshua's face lit up in joy, and turning back to us he caught my eye and smiled at me as he turned back to Eliphaz and called out loud...
'So whose face is on the coin?'
Eliphaz did not answer, and then I realised that he might be holding a Temple shekel whose face looked like a caesar but it was in fact an insulting shameful disgusting image of our most hated enemy God, Baal, and the priesthood had not bothered to complain about this for over half a century! Shame on them!
Knowing whose image it was I could understand why he didn't answer. The crowd would have torn him to pieces, because as already explained it was Baal the Pagan God and an arch enemy of ours and our Lord's, which the Romans had forced us to strike our Temple coins with, a humiliation.
'Alright, whose inscription is on the coin?' Called out Yesh.
'Caesars,' answered Eliphaz in quiet voice. And indeed the inscription was Caesar's, but the young priest had lost his confidence by now. Yeshua had turned the whole discussion right around.
'I can't hear you!' shouted Yeshua, 'Whose inscription is .....'
'Caesars!' shouted Eliphaz back in frustration.
Yeshua turned to the crowd once more.
'It Caesar's inscription, so let's give it to Caesar,' called Yesh, 'Give it to Caesar! And give to our Lord what is rightfully his..... And protect our people with laws that are rightfully theirs!' Yeshu then stayed silent.
Nobody moved. Silence prevailed for what seemed a very long time..... and the crowd began to murmur, and the murmurs became excited comments. People in the crowd laughed, and called out ,'That's right, friend!' and 'Yes' and slowly the shouts grew into a continuous roar. Most of us just stood, stunned yet again by Yeshu's incredible skill at speaking, but all control was lost if the mob became excited.
Eliphas walked away in a temper, stood with his group, thinking, and then returned a few more times with questions in attempts to change the crowd's mind about Yesh, but Yesh answered them, and the crowd was by now enjoying it's new status, sitting in judgement upon the questions and answers of the two men before it. Some people were serious, some just enjoying the situation, but they all liked Yeshu.
Eventually the group of priests turned away, and still surrounded by their guards they retreated back across tha vast space of the Temple Courts.
Seeing this act as a defeat for the priesthood, the crowd began to cheer, and the cheers became shouts of defiance, and we knew immediately that unless Yeshua did something quickly that there would be yet another riot throughout the Temple.
Yeshua turned to the baying mass and holding his hands high above his head as he had done so often to calm crowds on Gennesaret he called loudly for calm, and the Zebedee brothers took up his call, but the multitude had started to roar.
Fighting had broken out all around as the people turned upon the bands of Levite guards which were dispesed among them. When the mob began to move then control was gone, again, and we could do no more than get clear. Cephas and I thrust our way back towards Yeshua, and then with Big Simon, Judah, Cephas and the others forcing a path we all retreated towards the Temple gates.
That night there was much excitement among our group, but Yeshua was very distressed over losing control of the multitude. The disciples were really respectful to Yeshu, more now than ever, for today he had undertaken an action which none of them would have dared to believe was possible, and although they had been present to help him keep the Temple cleared of trade, he alone had initiated everything. At first the crowd had indeed been moved by Yeshu's appeals to them. We had never had any result like that in all the months that we had been travelling and presenting our mission and viewpoint. But as soon as the crowd had reached a certain size it simply went out of directionless control. It was agreed that the entire group would return the next day to do exactly the same thing, in the hopes that this time the disciples could disperse amongst the people to call for quiet and peaceful confrontation.
Next morning we all rose at first light and were on the road by sunrise. As we walked towards Jerusalem we passed by the fig tree that Yeshu had cursed before, and it was withered and burned, so obviously the tree's owner had come to the same decision as Yeshu about its value!
As we approached the Temple we could see that squads of Roman soldiers were stationed on every street corner, picking out people to stop and search, and the Temple itself was patrolled by large troops of Levite guards. As Yeshua walked across the Courts some people recognised him and called out to their friends, and before we had walked far we were accompanied by a large congregation.
This time Yeshua's closest disciples dispersed among the crowd in the hope of controlling it better than had happened the day before and, of course, I went with Cephas. And again we set up a picket line to disbar passing traders. It was not long before a troop of priests, this time surrounded by Levite guards, made its way directly towards Yeshua.
'See that one in the centre?' asked Cephas.
'The fattest one?' I asked.
'Yes, the fattest one. That's Caiaphas the Head Priest!,' answered Cephas. This time the crowd was more quiet and controlled, and I could hear most of what was said.
'You were here yesterday, and causing trouble.' Accused Caiaphas. 'By whose authority do you think that you can do this?'
'I'll tell you if first you will answer one simple question from me!' called Yesh, and the High Priest nodded.
'John the Immerser's work, was it from Heaven or from the people?' Yeshua cried out the question as loudly as he could.
The working people had loved and respected John the Immerser, and at mention of his name the whole congregation stilled and listened for an answer. I later learned that this was a very clever question, because if John was sent from heaven then the crowd would be furious that the priesthood had done nothing to protect him, and if from people, then 'they' were the people! Either answer, any answer, would upset them. The priests and officials just mumbled that they did not know. Yeshu stood before them, immune to their powers because he was surrounded by his own knowledge....and the multitude.
'I don't need to tell you what my authority is!', Jesus said loudly, and spread his arms and gestured to the crowd.
Yeshu spoke to the crowd in crystal clear voice and with crystal clear meaning. 'If a man planted a vineyard at great expense and then appointed tenants to work it,' he pointed to the officials and priests, '....and they then appropriated the property and all the proceeds for themselves, and beat up or killed any servants sent to collect from them, what do you think the owner should do? Eh?'
The crowd started to murmur and call out what they thought the Lord should do to the dishonest and greedy priesthood and officialdom. They had some very bloody ideas, and I heard our disciples calling for quiet so the Yesh could be heard.
'I'll tell you what the Lord and master would do!,' Spoke Yesh, 'He would come and kill those cheats and thieving tenants, and replace them!'.
At this the crowd roared approval and became more animated, calling out agreement for Yeshu's words. Cephas called for calm amongst the nearest people to us, and again I heard the other disciples holding back the people in case their agreement might turn to agitation.
The chief priest also raised his hands high to calm the crowd because of what had happened the previous day, and then beckoned to his men to come with him, away from Yesha's group. They went away to huddle together and talk. Cephas beckoned to me and then we jostled our way back to where Yeshua was waiting, just in case the priests might try to take our leader.
After a while the group of priests came back to face Yeshua and the crowd, but this time a younger priest stepped forward to speak.
'My name is Eliphaz,' he called out, 'And what is yours?'
'I am Yeshua BarYosef, of Nazareth, a handworker in wood, bone and stone!' called Yesh.
'Ah yes! You are Yeshua, who caused trouble along the Jordan, in Galilee and Prince Antipas would like to meet with you! You also tried to whip up touble in the ten cities and to the North!' Eliphaz paused for his words to have their effect upon the crowds, but there was no reaction, so he tried again.......
'Yeshua! We know you aren't swayed by men because you don't really care about them!' He now did have the crowd's attention. 'You just make speeches for the Lord! So tell us all..... should we pay taxes to Caesar or not?'
This was the priesthood's question to win back the crowd against Yeshu..... like Yeshua's question to them before, either answer would lose. 'Yes' would lose the people who hated taxation, yet 'No' would send a clear sign of rebellion to the Romans who watched and listened on the Temple Walls.
I couldn't see any way that Yeshu could answer, but he called to Eliphaz to show him a coin, who reached into his coin bag and held it high in finger and thumb. It was a silver coin but I couldn't see more than that.
Yeshua's face lit up in joy, and turning back to us he caught my eye and smiled at me as he turned back to Eliphaz and called out loud...
'So whose face is on the coin?'
Eliphaz did not answer, and then I realised that he might be holding a Temple shekel whose face looked like a caesar but it was in fact an insulting shameful disgusting image of our most hated enemy God, Baal, and the priesthood had not bothered to complain about this for over half a century! Shame on them!
Knowing whose image it was I could understand why he didn't answer. The crowd would have torn him to pieces, because as already explained it was Baal the Pagan God and an arch enemy of ours and our Lord's, which the Romans had forced us to strike our Temple coins with, a humiliation.
'Alright, whose inscription is on the coin?' Called out Yesh.
'Caesars,' answered Eliphaz in quiet voice. And indeed the inscription was Caesar's, but the young priest had lost his confidence by now. Yeshua had turned the whole discussion right around.
'I can't hear you!' shouted Yeshua, 'Whose inscription is .....'
'Caesars!' shouted Eliphaz back in frustration.
Yeshua turned to the crowd once more.
'It Caesar's inscription, so let's give it to Caesar,' called Yesh, 'Give it to Caesar! And give to our Lord what is rightfully his..... And protect our people with laws that are rightfully theirs!' Yeshu then stayed silent.
Nobody moved. Silence prevailed for what seemed a very long time..... and the crowd began to murmur, and the murmurs became excited comments. People in the crowd laughed, and called out ,'That's right, friend!' and 'Yes' and slowly the shouts grew into a continuous roar. Most of us just stood, stunned yet again by Yeshu's incredible skill at speaking, but all control was lost if the mob became excited.
Eliphas walked away in a temper, stood with his group, thinking, and then returned a few more times with questions in attempts to change the crowd's mind about Yesh, but Yesh answered them, and the crowd was by now enjoying it's new status, sitting in judgement upon the questions and answers of the two men before it. Some people were serious, some just enjoying the situation, but they all liked Yeshu.
Eventually the group of priests turned away, and still surrounded by their guards they retreated back across tha vast space of the Temple Courts.
Seeing this act as a defeat for the priesthood, the crowd began to cheer, and the cheers became shouts of defiance, and we knew immediately that unless Yeshua did something quickly that there would be yet another riot throughout the Temple.
Yeshua turned to the baying mass and holding his hands high above his head as he had done so often to calm crowds on Gennesaret he called loudly for calm, and the Zebedee brothers took up his call, but the multitude had started to roar.
Fighting had broken out all around as the people turned upon the bands of Levite guards which were dispesed among them. When the mob began to move then control was gone, again, and we could do no more than get clear. Cephas and I thrust our way back towards Yeshua, and then with Big Simon, Judah, Cephas and the others forcing a path we all retreated towards the Temple gates.
badger
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Hi Muhammad.......... The subject is about the story from my imagination. Are you reading the chapters?
I meant the subject that I raised about the teachings of Jesus..
Jesus predicted his death and resurrection several times. He established his church and gave Peter the keys. But of course you reject those passages