The Rebels ....from the imagination of a badger
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badger
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For some readers, Yes. For me this valuable little entry adjusted my opinion about Galilean Jews attendance rates at the Temple. Every little bit of info acts upon all others for me.
This particular discussion could develop in to it's own thread.... I need to study all your individual sections to see if there is a bible discussion, debate one, or an Historical Jesus one, because the subject is to the side of Christianity and not intended as a direct shot across it's bows. I'll come back to this in thirty minutes when I've untangled the next page for this thread.
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Click....... you got that right.
Paul, who built up most of 'Church' afterwards, didn't write down one single account or report about anything that Jesus did in his entire mission (save for the last day).
But Cephas did.
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Jerusalem
We stayed with a friend of Jesus in Bethany overnight, and were invited to return the next, and so the next morning on the first day of that festival week we all set off to walk in to Jerusalem. Every property in and around Jerusalem was overfilled with visiotors for the feast and the local people increased their charges for bed and board by huge amounts, and so an invitation from a friend to stay was a massive offering. I was so excited but I now remember how quiet and reserved the whole group had been then, apart from me.
The entrance into Jerusalem was the finest experience of my entire life. I had heard about it often enough in the past, but this spectacle was greater than anybody could imagine. The residents, pleased that we were bringing a whole year's hard earned money to spend with them, lined the streets, cheered and waved to us and threw down palm fronds for us to walk upon. And the girls........... those girls........ Of course the local people looked down on us Northern Jews, with our cheap clothing, strange dialects and guttural accents, but they loved us enough until our hard saved money was all gone. That was it..... they just welcomed our money, because a few days later there was no farewell, no girls waving, no palm fronds....just a lonely road out and away for us penniless peasants.
But that morning people were calling out greetings, such as 'Hosanna!'
'Blessed are they who come in the name of the Lord!'
The girls! Oh the girls! Wearing their brightest clothes and showing themselves at their very best, possibly hoping to meet with a rich pilgrim, I guess. I saw one mother swat at her daughter, who was definitely wriggling her middle at the man who walked beside me...... or maybe she did it for me! I never saw her again.
Judah retrieved the donkey and its young one from Jesus and said he would take it straight back to Bethany, which he did...... I can see why he arranged all this now; he thought Jesus was going to do something dangerous on that day and wanted to be far gone from any trouble. But he needn't have worried with all that charade because the day passed in wonderful interesting peace for me and all of us.
We all went towards the Temple, and Yeshu called us together and told us that if we were separated in the huge crowds that we should all meet up outside Bethany that evening, by the nearest house on the road leading to Jerusalem. I stayed with Cephas who stuck like glue to Yeshu. We entered in to and looked all round the Temple, and Yeshu told me that the opportunities for traders to cheat the common people out of their hard earned money were plentiful. I noticed that many of the visitors just accepted what they were charged for services or given for their coins in exchange for temple ones.
The temple grounds were vast.... it was a very long walk from outer wall to outer wall. Everywhere in the outer grounds there was excitement and merriment as relatives and friends bumped into each other. Within the temple priests would sacrifice the visitor's lambs, doves and other sacrifices for a fee.
We watched as a Northern Jew handed over his own lamb, carried from home for sacrifice, at a trading point to a dealer who shook his head and offered almost nothing for it. It had been condemned as imperfect by the priests and he would have to buy a temple lamb instead. Jesus told us all to wait until the man had left the area, and sure enough the trader offered that same condemned lamb to another buyer only a short while later on. Jesus told us that the priesthood received a cut from every such scam which was why it was pointless to bring one's own sacrificial lambs to Temple.
Authorised traders sold doves for sacrifice. People just paid what they were told to pay. Yeshu was right..... the temple trading area was a real den of iniquity! No wonder the Immerser had offered free remission of sins in the Jordan without all this corruption, and No need to wonder anymore, what he had said about the Temple and the priesthood.
And the money changing bazaar....Anna's Bazaar! How evil a place was that!
Yeshua had collected the money bag from Judah and he took some coins out, and then stood in a money changer's queue. When he walked away from the table he brought several coins, one for each of the grown men in our group. He offered one to show me, since I had never seen a Temple coin.
'See this? Who is this on this Temple half shekel?' Yeshua held the coin in front of me and I saw the head of what looked like a Roman leader, with laurel leaves encircling his forehead.
'Is that Caesar?' I asked?
'It would be better if it was,' said Yesh, 'But that is a God which the Romans call Melgarth Heracles.'
'Not on our Temples coins?!' I was shocked.
'Yes, on our Temple's coins, and worse still we call that same God Baal, and here he is, all over our Temple, on our Temple coins, touched and handled by every man here!' I had never realised the depths that our priesthood had sunk to before, to give in to such insults from the Roman rulers.
'Here, look! It's as bad as that on the other side,' said Yesh. He turned the coin over and I saw a great hunting bird perched on the prow of a ship and some letters, but I could not read at that time.
'This,' said Yesh, 'Is a graven image, and those letters are the inscription of Caesar.... on our own Temple coins!' I could see that Yeshua BarYosef was becoming angry.
'And that, young Mark, is just one good reason why this place needs changing or tearing down.' Yeshua spat on the coin and gave it to John who quickly dropped it back in Jesus's bag, then rubbing his hands ion his tunic in a parody of cleaning them.
For some of us Galileans this was the first time that we had ever seen such sights. Although expected to visit at least once a year, Galilean working people did not find such opportunities often, and the Lake fishermen had their own secret sacrificial rites that were not approved by the priesthood. Only that week we had heard that the priesthood had reported a group of Galileans making sacrifice away from the Temple and Pilate had felt obliged to act. Their Galilean's blood had been 'mixed with their sacrifices', or so we had heard.
After walking the vast spaces of the Temple Corts we went up into the Temle itself, into the Women's Court where we sat together and rested. As we sat resting an old woman shuffled up and put two small coins into one of the great bell-mouthed offerings-coffers. Thomas watched this and made a dismissive chuckle, but Yesh confronted him immediately. 'That poor woman gave everything that she had, but some local big names who have given huge amounts are still wealthy beyond imagination! We need people who are prepared to give everything for our cause, as she gave everything....! '. Yeshu had a way with words.
We spent all of that day wandering in the Temple grounds, looking at everything and wondering at the unbelievable mass of people who were there...... it seemed to me like the whole world had come to this place, all at once.
After leaving the Temple and the city, instead of retiring directly to Bethany we climbed the Mount of Olives which lay just to the North of our road. The spring air was cool enough to be clear, and we all sat and relaxed, looking out upon the Temple, the great city and beyond it. Yeshu overheard Jude commenting on the size and majesty of the Temple. 'Sadly it has become the very centre of the corruption that has covered the whole land,' he said, 'It will be razed to the ground when justice finally arrives here.'
Cephas and others asked how long it would be before such things would happen.
'Watch out for deceptions!' answered Jesus, ' Many will claim to be allies, so be careful. If you continue with me after today you could be arrested, tried, interrogated, flogged. Don't worry about what to say....... just be yourselves and trust in the Lord.... you will know what to do and say. '
Yeshu drew a long breath and a tear ran down his cheek.
'Families will be torn apart in the struggle, Father against son, brother killing brother. People will hate you so much because of the disruption that we will have caused, but stand firm for what you believe and it will come right... one day. And those.....' Yeshu gestured down towards the great city, the temple and the great palace of Herod, '......those Judeans will need to flee to the hills and the mountains!'
'So take care!, He continued, ' Don't trust those who claim to be with us, it's what people do that will count, or not. Take care, my friends!' And for the first time in my life, sitting near Yeshu in that beautiful place, perhaps overcome with the majesty of that lovely hillside, I watched Yeshu shed tears.
It was getting late, and so we went back to Bethany for the night. That evening we sat and chatted about all that we had seen, and ate bread and drank cheap wine that we had purchased (at premium prices!) from the villagers. I was too excited to fall asleep, and saw that Yeshu had gathered his twelve closest followers about him and was talking to them very seriously, but eventually I dropped off to sleep and was woken by the cockrels at first light, and by sunrise we were ready for the next visit to that den of sins.
We stayed with a friend of Jesus in Bethany overnight, and were invited to return the next, and so the next morning on the first day of that festival week we all set off to walk in to Jerusalem. Every property in and around Jerusalem was overfilled with visiotors for the feast and the local people increased their charges for bed and board by huge amounts, and so an invitation from a friend to stay was a massive offering. I was so excited but I now remember how quiet and reserved the whole group had been then, apart from me.
The entrance into Jerusalem was the finest experience of my entire life. I had heard about it often enough in the past, but this spectacle was greater than anybody could imagine. The residents, pleased that we were bringing a whole year's hard earned money to spend with them, lined the streets, cheered and waved to us and threw down palm fronds for us to walk upon. And the girls........... those girls........ Of course the local people looked down on us Northern Jews, with our cheap clothing, strange dialects and guttural accents, but they loved us enough until our hard saved money was all gone. That was it..... they just welcomed our money, because a few days later there was no farewell, no girls waving, no palm fronds....just a lonely road out and away for us penniless peasants.
But that morning people were calling out greetings, such as 'Hosanna!'
'Blessed are they who come in the name of the Lord!'
The girls! Oh the girls! Wearing their brightest clothes and showing themselves at their very best, possibly hoping to meet with a rich pilgrim, I guess. I saw one mother swat at her daughter, who was definitely wriggling her middle at the man who walked beside me...... or maybe she did it for me! I never saw her again.
Judah retrieved the donkey and its young one from Jesus and said he would take it straight back to Bethany, which he did...... I can see why he arranged all this now; he thought Jesus was going to do something dangerous on that day and wanted to be far gone from any trouble. But he needn't have worried with all that charade because the day passed in wonderful interesting peace for me and all of us.
We all went towards the Temple, and Yeshu called us together and told us that if we were separated in the huge crowds that we should all meet up outside Bethany that evening, by the nearest house on the road leading to Jerusalem. I stayed with Cephas who stuck like glue to Yeshu. We entered in to and looked all round the Temple, and Yeshu told me that the opportunities for traders to cheat the common people out of their hard earned money were plentiful. I noticed that many of the visitors just accepted what they were charged for services or given for their coins in exchange for temple ones.
The temple grounds were vast.... it was a very long walk from outer wall to outer wall. Everywhere in the outer grounds there was excitement and merriment as relatives and friends bumped into each other. Within the temple priests would sacrifice the visitor's lambs, doves and other sacrifices for a fee.
We watched as a Northern Jew handed over his own lamb, carried from home for sacrifice, at a trading point to a dealer who shook his head and offered almost nothing for it. It had been condemned as imperfect by the priests and he would have to buy a temple lamb instead. Jesus told us all to wait until the man had left the area, and sure enough the trader offered that same condemned lamb to another buyer only a short while later on. Jesus told us that the priesthood received a cut from every such scam which was why it was pointless to bring one's own sacrificial lambs to Temple.
Authorised traders sold doves for sacrifice. People just paid what they were told to pay. Yeshu was right..... the temple trading area was a real den of iniquity! No wonder the Immerser had offered free remission of sins in the Jordan without all this corruption, and No need to wonder anymore, what he had said about the Temple and the priesthood.
And the money changing bazaar....Anna's Bazaar! How evil a place was that!
Yeshua had collected the money bag from Judah and he took some coins out, and then stood in a money changer's queue. When he walked away from the table he brought several coins, one for each of the grown men in our group. He offered one to show me, since I had never seen a Temple coin.
'See this? Who is this on this Temple half shekel?' Yeshua held the coin in front of me and I saw the head of what looked like a Roman leader, with laurel leaves encircling his forehead.
'Is that Caesar?' I asked?
'It would be better if it was,' said Yesh, 'But that is a God which the Romans call Melgarth Heracles.'
'Not on our Temples coins?!' I was shocked.
'Yes, on our Temple's coins, and worse still we call that same God Baal, and here he is, all over our Temple, on our Temple coins, touched and handled by every man here!' I had never realised the depths that our priesthood had sunk to before, to give in to such insults from the Roman rulers.
'Here, look! It's as bad as that on the other side,' said Yesh. He turned the coin over and I saw a great hunting bird perched on the prow of a ship and some letters, but I could not read at that time.
'This,' said Yesh, 'Is a graven image, and those letters are the inscription of Caesar.... on our own Temple coins!' I could see that Yeshua BarYosef was becoming angry.
'And that, young Mark, is just one good reason why this place needs changing or tearing down.' Yeshua spat on the coin and gave it to John who quickly dropped it back in Jesus's bag, then rubbing his hands ion his tunic in a parody of cleaning them.
For some of us Galileans this was the first time that we had ever seen such sights. Although expected to visit at least once a year, Galilean working people did not find such opportunities often, and the Lake fishermen had their own secret sacrificial rites that were not approved by the priesthood. Only that week we had heard that the priesthood had reported a group of Galileans making sacrifice away from the Temple and Pilate had felt obliged to act. Their Galilean's blood had been 'mixed with their sacrifices', or so we had heard.
After walking the vast spaces of the Temple Corts we went up into the Temle itself, into the Women's Court where we sat together and rested. As we sat resting an old woman shuffled up and put two small coins into one of the great bell-mouthed offerings-coffers. Thomas watched this and made a dismissive chuckle, but Yesh confronted him immediately. 'That poor woman gave everything that she had, but some local big names who have given huge amounts are still wealthy beyond imagination! We need people who are prepared to give everything for our cause, as she gave everything....! '. Yeshu had a way with words.
We spent all of that day wandering in the Temple grounds, looking at everything and wondering at the unbelievable mass of people who were there...... it seemed to me like the whole world had come to this place, all at once.
After leaving the Temple and the city, instead of retiring directly to Bethany we climbed the Mount of Olives which lay just to the North of our road. The spring air was cool enough to be clear, and we all sat and relaxed, looking out upon the Temple, the great city and beyond it. Yeshu overheard Jude commenting on the size and majesty of the Temple. 'Sadly it has become the very centre of the corruption that has covered the whole land,' he said, 'It will be razed to the ground when justice finally arrives here.'
Cephas and others asked how long it would be before such things would happen.
'Watch out for deceptions!' answered Jesus, ' Many will claim to be allies, so be careful. If you continue with me after today you could be arrested, tried, interrogated, flogged. Don't worry about what to say....... just be yourselves and trust in the Lord.... you will know what to do and say. '
Yeshu drew a long breath and a tear ran down his cheek.
'Families will be torn apart in the struggle, Father against son, brother killing brother. People will hate you so much because of the disruption that we will have caused, but stand firm for what you believe and it will come right... one day. And those.....' Yeshu gestured down towards the great city, the temple and the great palace of Herod, '......those Judeans will need to flee to the hills and the mountains!'
'So take care!, He continued, ' Don't trust those who claim to be with us, it's what people do that will count, or not. Take care, my friends!' And for the first time in my life, sitting near Yeshu in that beautiful place, perhaps overcome with the majesty of that lovely hillside, I watched Yeshu shed tears.
It was getting late, and so we went back to Bethany for the night. That evening we sat and chatted about all that we had seen, and ate bread and drank cheap wine that we had purchased (at premium prices!) from the villagers. I was too excited to fall asleep, and saw that Yeshu had gathered his twelve closest followers about him and was talking to them very seriously, but eventually I dropped off to sleep and was woken by the cockrels at first light, and by sunrise we were ready for the next visit to that den of sins.
badger
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@RJM ......... That account about the first day after the triumphant entry, once in Jerusalem and Temple. Jesus and disciples spent the whole day looking round the Temple, at everything. Today that could be called 'sightseeing', and it makes a significant difference to how I think about the Northern Jews from the peasant classes (there was no middle class)........
Mark {11:11} And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.
If I could expand this in to it's own thread, where should it be placed? It's more about history than Christianity, imo.
Mark {11:11} And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.
If I could expand this in to it's own thread, where should it be placed? It's more about history than Christianity, imo.
badger
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You should be there as well, methinks.
It is entirely accurate.
The life and death (and resurrection) of Christ ARE the message. Christ does not teach merely by words. That's the point.
No-one has to accept it or believe it. But that is the way the gospels say it happened. So trying to make the gospels say it happened differently is like trying to pick cherries from a fig tree, imo
In the opinion of those who follow the Quran ...
No .. that is meaningless. If you are suggesting that Jesus is teaching us "by example" when it comes to death and ressurrection, that needs more evidence than just actually happening.
Jesus did not say "I am God, and my death is more significant than my words" .. this is the interpretation by various people for various reasons.
The Qur'an is irrelevant to my point. I'm not discussing whether Jesus died or not .. I'm talking about the significance of Jesus on the cross in the Bible, and how it is all about people's opinions .. and not Jesus' words.
To you it may be.
To others the mystery of the Cross is greatly profound
The purpose of the incarnation. The message of Christ, on many levels. The new Adam, the last blood sacrifice, the tearing of the temple veil, man suspended between nature and spirit ... countless other subtleties upon which kings and beggars and fools and wise men have meditated for two millennia
Depends on how it is understood, and by whom
That would seem to be correct.
Which those who follow the Quran reject, for their own reasons
Oh really?
Back to: Christ's life and death and resurrection are as essential as his words
Again, back to: No-one is required to accept or believe it, but it cannot be denied that is the way the gospels say it happened ...
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The gospels say Christ died on the cross and was resurrected. The Quran says he did not. There's no way to make the gospels not say what they do say. That's my point ...
badger
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The 2nd Day......... amongst the Doves and Silver
At sunrise, as we left Bethany, Yeshu walked to a fig tree to pluck some figs for the walk to the city, but sadly he found that it was empty which didn't surprise me very much because the whole world had walked past it that week. But Yeshu was frustrated at this and muttered to himself that it should never bear fruit again. We walked back into Jerusalem, and as well as looking at all the sights I kept a good look out in the hopes that I might see that young girl again, but I never did see her.
Yeshu and the disciples had become very serious and tense. At one point Cephas said something about 'showing those robbers a thing or two' but Yesh spoke very seriously to him, and I heard him say sternly to Ceph...
'...you must promise me that you will start nothing! You must leave this to me! Do you promise?' Cephas had reluctantly agreed.
Once again we walked through those streets filled with crowds out to greet the incoming money, and I searched for my girl..... Alas! Something about the people had changed, and there were Levite and even some Roman guards out in the streets. One Roman soldier and his squad stopped our group...
'You're Galileans! And where were you since sun-down last? Yeshua answered to the soldier, explaining that we were all out at Bethany and that we had just arrived back at the city.
'Search them!' ordered the decurion. I could see that Cephas, Judah and Big Simon were ready to push the soldiers away, but they did not, and the soldiers found nothing of interest on any of us. Then the soldiers took interest in the next group of pilgrims, but as we moved on our way Judah turned back by the way that we had come, and caught up with us shortly afterwards.
'Where did he go?' I asked Cephas.
'Back to retrieve his blade!' answered Cephas, 'I saw Judah drop it into a water trough before I realised what was going on.'
'Why are they stopping us folks?'
'Because there was some trouble last night in the city, I expect. Galileans usually....... We're the boys!' Cephas chuckled
'He was so lucky!', I exclaimed, 'What if they had found the dagger?'
They would have killed him or overpowered him immediately. They probably would have seized all of us for being with him,' replied Cephas.
'Judah should get rid of it! He has put us in so much danger with that!'
'Mark....' Cephas stopped me from walking on so as to get my full attention, 'Judah knows more about carrying daggers than anybody I ever met! Why do you think we call him 'the blade'?'
And then we were entering into the Great Temple once more, and in the vast Temple Courts and Yeshu was walking directly and quite doggedly towards the bazaar where the trader's worked at their tables. It was still quite early in the day, and although there were a lot of people everywhere it was nowhere near as crowded as it would be by noon.
We all followed Yeshu who walked straight up to and amongst the traders, kicking their benches over as he passed, not even looking at the surprised and angry faces of those men. Yeshu was strong and in his prime, and many people just jumped out of his way when they saw his aggressive approach. And then the others spread out amongst the lines of stalls, turning them over, creating havoc and scuffling with any who tried to stop them. Doves were flying everywhere, escaping from ruined cages! Lambs ran around all over the place! Delightful scene!
I didn't know that this was going to happen. Nobody had told me anything about all that. One or two of the other followers clearly didn't know about this either, but all of the inner circle of disciples had known exactly what Yeshua intended and I saw James, John, Andrew and Jude marching through the lines of stalls and smashing over them over just as Yesh was. Cephas, Big Simon, Judah and Adam were following and throwing down anybody who tried to run after the first group. Levi and Nat followed close behind those four and they had picked up broken table legs to use as clubs in the event that Cephas's group got into any trouble at all. I stayed with Cephas and followed his lead; I was strong and fit from hauling nets and oars and struck down a couple of nasty looking traders who were looking dangerous. But the the mayhem was so total and sudden that I soon got slowed down by debris and fallen bodies everywhere.
Levite priests were running in amongst the crowd but Yeshua's men were moving so fast and with such determination that everything behind them was in confusion. I saw one Levite Guard raise a baton and club down an injured trader who was trying to rise, instead of one of us. One ran at me but then stopped in front of me and looked for somebody else to attack. Lucky for me I must have looked like a startled youth.
I understood the reasons why I had not been told anything. Only the inner circle of disciples had been prepared for this. I continued to make my way through the carnage, and eventually reached the money changer's court, Anna's Bazaar. Imagine a hundred tables full of boxes of coins, because that's how many were needed to serve the multitudes of people who were visiting the Temple during that Feast week. Imagine whole rows of these turned over, with piles of different coins strewn in all directions, with the traders scrabbling to pick up all that wealth whilst other traders tried to punch them away, because by now it was not certain which coins had fallen from which tables. That was how Yeshua and his men were getting away with all this, the traders were diving down to save their fortunes rather than try to stop the trouble from continuing.
The thousands and thousands of bystanders who had been queueing at the hundreds of tables to change their local coins into Temple shekels were now grabbing up as much cash as they could before trying to get clear of the place.
It was a riot! The Temple guards didn't know who was stealing the money or who was a genuine trader trying to save his funds. The excitement, fear, frustration, anger, fury and desperation was extreme and everywhere, and way ahead the rows of Yeshua's Galilean demonstrators just kept racing forward through the lines of still quiet queues, so fast were they moving.
I lost sight of them altogether and so just made my way through the chaos back the way I had come. I must have looked like a youth who had lost touch with his family because I was not stopped once. And then I saw the man, lying in a pool of his blood, not moving, and nobody attempting to help him. He was clutching hands to his left side...and I remember thinking...
'Was this the work of Judah?'
Eventually I walked beside a family group as if I belonged, and one of the women eventually turned to me and asked me where I came from.
'I am Mark BarAmon from Capernaum', I answered and the woman immediately beckoned me further in to their family group.
'We are from Tiberias', she told me, 'We don't know what is happening but we are leaving! You come with us!'
I felt sure that it would take hours or possibly days for the traders to tidy up the mess and how they would ever agree with each other about 'who owned what' was going to be a bad time for them.
And of course I had seen Yesh and the others kicking over the dove-sellers' and then the money changer's benches and tables. Within minutes the place was a complete mess. The temple would not be able to function, and certainly would not attract any revenue at all until the mess was sorted out.
At sunrise, as we left Bethany, Yeshu walked to a fig tree to pluck some figs for the walk to the city, but sadly he found that it was empty which didn't surprise me very much because the whole world had walked past it that week. But Yeshu was frustrated at this and muttered to himself that it should never bear fruit again. We walked back into Jerusalem, and as well as looking at all the sights I kept a good look out in the hopes that I might see that young girl again, but I never did see her.
Yeshu and the disciples had become very serious and tense. At one point Cephas said something about 'showing those robbers a thing or two' but Yesh spoke very seriously to him, and I heard him say sternly to Ceph...
'...you must promise me that you will start nothing! You must leave this to me! Do you promise?' Cephas had reluctantly agreed.
Once again we walked through those streets filled with crowds out to greet the incoming money, and I searched for my girl..... Alas! Something about the people had changed, and there were Levite and even some Roman guards out in the streets. One Roman soldier and his squad stopped our group...
'You're Galileans! And where were you since sun-down last? Yeshua answered to the soldier, explaining that we were all out at Bethany and that we had just arrived back at the city.
'Search them!' ordered the decurion. I could see that Cephas, Judah and Big Simon were ready to push the soldiers away, but they did not, and the soldiers found nothing of interest on any of us. Then the soldiers took interest in the next group of pilgrims, but as we moved on our way Judah turned back by the way that we had come, and caught up with us shortly afterwards.
'Where did he go?' I asked Cephas.
'Back to retrieve his blade!' answered Cephas, 'I saw Judah drop it into a water trough before I realised what was going on.'
'Why are they stopping us folks?'
'Because there was some trouble last night in the city, I expect. Galileans usually....... We're the boys!' Cephas chuckled
'He was so lucky!', I exclaimed, 'What if they had found the dagger?'
They would have killed him or overpowered him immediately. They probably would have seized all of us for being with him,' replied Cephas.
'Judah should get rid of it! He has put us in so much danger with that!'
'Mark....' Cephas stopped me from walking on so as to get my full attention, 'Judah knows more about carrying daggers than anybody I ever met! Why do you think we call him 'the blade'?'
And then we were entering into the Great Temple once more, and in the vast Temple Courts and Yeshu was walking directly and quite doggedly towards the bazaar where the trader's worked at their tables. It was still quite early in the day, and although there were a lot of people everywhere it was nowhere near as crowded as it would be by noon.
We all followed Yeshu who walked straight up to and amongst the traders, kicking their benches over as he passed, not even looking at the surprised and angry faces of those men. Yeshu was strong and in his prime, and many people just jumped out of his way when they saw his aggressive approach. And then the others spread out amongst the lines of stalls, turning them over, creating havoc and scuffling with any who tried to stop them. Doves were flying everywhere, escaping from ruined cages! Lambs ran around all over the place! Delightful scene!
I didn't know that this was going to happen. Nobody had told me anything about all that. One or two of the other followers clearly didn't know about this either, but all of the inner circle of disciples had known exactly what Yeshua intended and I saw James, John, Andrew and Jude marching through the lines of stalls and smashing over them over just as Yesh was. Cephas, Big Simon, Judah and Adam were following and throwing down anybody who tried to run after the first group. Levi and Nat followed close behind those four and they had picked up broken table legs to use as clubs in the event that Cephas's group got into any trouble at all. I stayed with Cephas and followed his lead; I was strong and fit from hauling nets and oars and struck down a couple of nasty looking traders who were looking dangerous. But the the mayhem was so total and sudden that I soon got slowed down by debris and fallen bodies everywhere.
Levite priests were running in amongst the crowd but Yeshua's men were moving so fast and with such determination that everything behind them was in confusion. I saw one Levite Guard raise a baton and club down an injured trader who was trying to rise, instead of one of us. One ran at me but then stopped in front of me and looked for somebody else to attack. Lucky for me I must have looked like a startled youth.
I understood the reasons why I had not been told anything. Only the inner circle of disciples had been prepared for this. I continued to make my way through the carnage, and eventually reached the money changer's court, Anna's Bazaar. Imagine a hundred tables full of boxes of coins, because that's how many were needed to serve the multitudes of people who were visiting the Temple during that Feast week. Imagine whole rows of these turned over, with piles of different coins strewn in all directions, with the traders scrabbling to pick up all that wealth whilst other traders tried to punch them away, because by now it was not certain which coins had fallen from which tables. That was how Yeshua and his men were getting away with all this, the traders were diving down to save their fortunes rather than try to stop the trouble from continuing.
The thousands and thousands of bystanders who had been queueing at the hundreds of tables to change their local coins into Temple shekels were now grabbing up as much cash as they could before trying to get clear of the place.
It was a riot! The Temple guards didn't know who was stealing the money or who was a genuine trader trying to save his funds. The excitement, fear, frustration, anger, fury and desperation was extreme and everywhere, and way ahead the rows of Yeshua's Galilean demonstrators just kept racing forward through the lines of still quiet queues, so fast were they moving.
I lost sight of them altogether and so just made my way through the chaos back the way I had come. I must have looked like a youth who had lost touch with his family because I was not stopped once. And then I saw the man, lying in a pool of his blood, not moving, and nobody attempting to help him. He was clutching hands to his left side...and I remember thinking...
'Was this the work of Judah?'
Eventually I walked beside a family group as if I belonged, and one of the women eventually turned to me and asked me where I came from.
'I am Mark BarAmon from Capernaum', I answered and the woman immediately beckoned me further in to their family group.
'We are from Tiberias', she told me, 'We don't know what is happening but we are leaving! You come with us!'
I felt sure that it would take hours or possibly days for the traders to tidy up the mess and how they would ever agree with each other about 'who owned what' was going to be a bad time for them.
And of course I had seen Yesh and the others kicking over the dove-sellers' and then the money changer's benches and tables. Within minutes the place was a complete mess. The temple would not be able to function, and certainly would not attract any revenue at all until the mess was sorted out.
Be honest: the whole purpose is to prove the Quran Jesus, by using the New Testament Jesus. But it cannot be done.I know .. you always have to point out I'm a Muslim, whatever the discussion is about.
It's no defence, you know.
The despicable substitution theory makes both Allah and Jesus to be deceitful and unjust, and the swoon theory, beyond failing on the practical level, makes Jesus either a liar or a fool.
Beyond the crucifixion and resurrection, the rest involves quibbling over the dictionary meanings of words and over-simplifcation of deep thoughts and mysteries in the effort to trivialize and minimize Christian belief, by taking from the New Testament the parts that suit the argument in hand and rejecting which do not -- often using the same passage to support one argument, then rejecting the same passage when it does not support another argument, imo
It would have to be a quick rescue because an unconscious man would die within minutes of suffocation on a cross. A hacksaw would be required. Jesus told his followers he was going to die on several occasions. He certainly wasn't very good at his job as sinless virgin born miracle working prophet (the Muslim belief) if he got that fact wrong?
So having failed in his mission to tweak-fix the Jewish religion back to rights, Allah had to quickly raise Jesus alive to heaven, to avoid him getting really killed, and in the process sparked the whole false and polytheistic religion of Christianity by mistake -- that Muhammad (pbuh) would need to be sent to correct -- unsuccessfully so far, it seems?
How logical is that?
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The only reason for all this is to justify one single sentence in the Quran:
"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain"
(4: 157 Pickthall)
IMO the entire range of theories that Jesus did not die on the cross derive from the need to justify this single passage.
My point is that of course everyone is entitled to their own belief and scripture, but the simple fact is that the New Testament cannot be made to support the Quran on the issue
It's the arrogance of constantly coming at Christianity attempting to trash Christian belief based on a single line from the Quran that is the problem, but with a thin understanding of the actual beliefs and scripture, ignoring all the subtleties, imo
"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain"
(4: 157 Pickthall)
IMO the entire range of theories that Jesus did not die on the cross derive from the need to justify this single passage.
My point is that of course everyone is entitled to their own belief and scripture, but the simple fact is that the New Testament cannot be made to support the Quran on the issue
It's the arrogance of constantly coming at Christianity attempting to trash Christian belief based on a single line from the Quran that is the problem, but with a thin understanding of the actual beliefs and scripture, ignoring all the subtleties, imo
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