There is no justice if atheism is true

['Amir Alzzalam]

Sigh, he didn't look

Reply removed at user's own request

 

[Aupmanyav]

If we do not have that set standard, then anarchy is also a valid choice, as what power do we submit to if we do not agree with a law?

We do have set standards. Most people submit to the laws of their society and their country.

Less than 1%? I highly doubt it today, India's population has increasingly left Hindusim and embraced Atheism.

79% declare themselves as Hindus. Hinduism is stronger today than it was 10 years ago.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

There are laws of the nation and the laws of the society in which you live. Does atheism asks one to disobey those laws?
I submit to both. My being atheist does not exempt me from them.

But you must believe that these laws and rules have an origin. Why is it that humans have laws and moral law and objective reasoning but other species do not. My answer is they came and were ordained by God, But what do you say?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But you must believe that these laws and rules have an origin. Why is it that humans have laws and moral law and objective reasoning but other species do not. My answer is they came and were ordained by God, But what do you say?

I would agree an Athiest will not.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

But you must believe that these laws and rules have an origin. Why is it that humans have laws and moral law and objective reasoning but other species do not. My answer is they came and were ordained by God, But what do you say?

Other species also have their laws. All societies have laws. Humans are just one species of animals. Society cannot function without laws. You have an answer but you have no evidence for it other than the the story of the stone tablet that your God had gave to Moses and which he broke later.

 

[wil]

My G!d is principle. It is the TOE, the underlying principle that allows all to exist in this universe, the gravity thar keeps us on earth, the moon controlling our tides, us revolving around our sun, our sun in our spiral arm and our galaxy spinning thru space! It is a joy to behold!

So to me the books and rules are man's week attempts at rules and laws and punishments

Man's law says stop at stop signs, under penalty of a fine, G!ds law is two objects cannot occupy the same space, and an action causes an equal and opposite reaction, the penalties to breaking those rules are a tad more severe

Same thing with the permanent record they lied about in school, the good and naughty list of the pseudo God Santa, or the fictions St Michael at man made pearly gates deciding who walks roads paved of gold listening to harps for eternity...all man's mind making stuff up while the real permanent record is in our mind, knowing what we have done wrong, and having to deal with those repercussions for a lifetime

Of course that is just the ramblings of this agnostic

 

[Aupmanyav]

'Amir Alzzalam said: I highly doubt it today, India's population has increasingly left Hindusim and embraced Atheism.H\
Hinduism has no problem with Atheism, since atheism is a part of Hinduism. For example, I am an atheist but remain a Hindu.
I desire that all people in India become atheists. That way, we will be able to abandon superstition and religious conflicts.

 

[Ahanu]

My G!d is principle. It is the TOE, the underlying principle that allows all to exist in this universe, the gravity thar keeps us on earth, the moon controlling our tides, us revolving around our sun, our sun in our spiral arm and our galaxy spinning thru space! It is a joy to behold!

So to me the books and rules are man's week attempts at rules and laws and punishments

Man's law says stop at stop signs, under penalty of a fine, G!ds law is two objects cannot occupy the same space, and an action causes an equal and opposite reaction, the penalties to breaking those rules are a tad more severe

Same thing with the permanent record they lied about in school, the good and naughty list of the pseudo God Santa, or the fictions St Michael at man made pearly gates deciding who walks roads paved of gold listening to harps for eternity...all man's mind making stuff up while the real permanent record is in our mind, knowing what we have done wrong, and having to deal with those repercussions for a lifetime

Of course that is just the ramblings of this agnostic

Why assume a principle at all? The principle itself is a human construct.

There are no principles.

 

[wil]

Why assume a principle at all? The principle itself is a human construct.

There are no principles.

Becuase of others understanding of principles, in math, physics, chemistry, astronomy....has gotten man on the moon, kept me alive, and allowed us to communicate in this forum....isn't that enough?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why assume a principle at all? The principle itself is a human construct.
There are no principles.

Sure, there are no absolute principle. Human societies create them for their peaceful continuance. Fakes say "God told me to convey this to people."

 

[TheLightWithin]

..but they won't get away with it in the end..

It would be nice if G-d really does do something to the bad guys in the afterlife, and I used to sort of count on it, when I was naive about religion, and though I still find the idea appealing, the specific doctrines of Christianity and Islam have me thoroughly disillusioned
(*specific doctrines about the supposed fate - not of war criminals, but of mere unbelievers!!)

Dear friend, neither you will survive after death , nor I

Death is no escape

No one can escape justice

We have no certain facts about any of these assertions.
IF conditional immortality is true, as my grandfather so adamantly drilled (about which there are also no certain facts supporting) but IF it is - all three of the statements just above can be at least possibly supported.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Yes, humans are responsible for most of the chaos. A large part of it is because of religions and the denominations (Catholic / Protestants; Sunni / Shia).

Humans are responsible for the interpersonal chaos.
Religions are only the topic, not the actual cause.
Competition, Ingroup vs Outgroup, Us vs Them, religion is a factor and an influence.
However, some people think that if it weren't for religion there would not be conflict, and I do not think that to be the case.

Also I just realized that I was responding to very old posts in this thread...

 

[iBrian]

I'm reminded of a quote from the end of Terry Pratchett's Hogfather:

"take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and THEN show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy."

I don't understand why people expect there must be some form of punishment after death - it seems a very human desire, rather than a spiritual one.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I'm reminded of a quote from the end of Terry Pratchett's Hogfather:

"take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and THEN show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy."

I like that quote

I don't understand why people expect there must be some form of punishment after death - it seems a very human desire, rather than a spiritual one.

I think because people feel powerless in the face of injustice in this world, and hope for some form of it in the next.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I don't understand why people expect there must be some form of punishment after death - it seems a very human desire, rather than a spiritual one.

It is appealing and reassuring, for a time - esp when some people are so brutally victimized and the perpetrator seems to get a carefree life.
I find or at least once found it a hopeful idea, that everyone from the worst war criminals down to regular criminals down to bullies down to everyone who even looked at me sideways in high school, might get some form of comeuppance that was in proportion to their crimes and ills.
I found it appealing - until I really looked into religious doctrine - that is the afterlife doctrine of various religions.
Which mostly seems to address none of my concerns.
And generally seems to be unreasonable, insensitive, and worse

 

[muhammad_isa]

It would be nice if G-d really does do something to the bad guys in the afterlife..

I don't see it as "G-d doing something".
I believe that our deeds are no longer hidden in the life hereafter .. they are all recorded, so even if bad deeds don't catch up with us in this life, they will eventually.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

It is appealing and reassuring, for a time - esp when some people are so brutally victimized and the perpetrator seems to get a carefree life.
I find or at least once found it a hopeful idea, that everyone from the worst war criminals down to regular criminals down to bullies down to everyone who even looked at me sideways in high school, might get some form of comeuppance that was in proportion to their crimes and ills.
I found it appealing - until I really looked into religious doctrine - that is the afterlife doctrine of various religions.
Which mostly seems to address none of my concerns.
And generally seems to be unreasonable, insensitive, and worse

This topic has many quotes from the Baha'i Writings, if you are interested here is a link or two, just to give mote thoughts in your journey of knowing your own self.

Why do we do bad things

Why do bad things happen to good people.

All the best, stay well, stay happy, Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

We have no certain facts about any of these assertions.
IF conditional immortality is true, as my grandfather so adamantly drilled (about which there are also no certain facts supporting) but IF it is - all three of the statements just above can be at least possibly supported.

I would disagree we have no facts, it is all relative to our frames of reference.

We have the Messengers who are the apex of Justice, all the virtues in fact.

Thus they are alao the apex of trustworthiness and truthfulness and in this station, all they say and offer from God, is fact, but only if we submit to their God given authority, we can choose the path inmour own self, the self that attaches us to the material image of existence.

No sin passes unpunished, the issue we have is that we do not see all the consequences, but we are told we will be brought to account, we all face that day when we pass from this reality into the other worlds of God and on that day we will face what we have done.

This is well worth researching, especially from many NDE experiences. Many say that the things they realised in this life they had done wrong in, and asked for forgiveness, were not what they faced. They faced great sorrow and remorse for hurting other souls, mostly unknowingly of events they had forgotten, we escape nothing, it is all known by God.

In The Hidden Words, Baha’u’llah promises:

"Think not that which ye have committed hath been effaced in My sight. By My beauty! All your doings hath My pen graven with open characters upon tablets of chrysolite."

Now think about our connection with our ancestors, and admire the ancient cultures that celebrate their ancestors,

:..Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ’time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation..." – Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 95.

Regards Tony

 

[Vasu Devan]

Hinduism has no problem with Atheism, since atheism is a part of Hinduism. For example, I am an atheist but remain a Hindu.
I desire that all people in India become atheists. That way, we will be able to abandon superstition and religious conflicts.

Yeah Sadly while philosophical belief systems like Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism can support atheistic belief to some extent, as Western concepts creep into the East, religion gets tangled with Nationalism.

India never had any major issue with the Muslims or Christians living there but now wants to make its tenets national law, to the point of breaking rule of ahimsa to do so. Much like what is going on in USA right now.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I don't see it as "G-d doing something".
I believe that our deeds are no longer hidden in the life hereafter .. they are all recorded, so even if bad deeds don't catch up with us in this life, they will eventually.

Interesting...
That kind of sounds, a little, like Karmic religions.
Is that from a passage in any scripture, or a personal philosophy?