Freewill vs Predestination

[InLove]

Why isn't good, good enough? Why isn't just being who you are good enough? Why do you have to change who you are... What is the point in the "free will" given if you have favourtisim for certain people that choose one thing than the other. I have and never will get the point when you talk of christianity and free will... cause it is pointless. My dog has it's own free will to choose to do what it want's.. It runs out into the back gardens, then comes back in... Oh my! It's jumped on the couch with muddy paws... is it the dogs fault? Or my fault? That it has done this... I could of trainined it that, that was bad and continue to train it, so it becomes a function an automatic "programme" in the dogs head that makes it avoid the couch.... The dog isn't as intelligent as me... Apparently... So it doesn't know any better. Why should it be punished? I think I am waffling on into a void lol... Gonna go have a smoke break... meh.

Hey Angel

If I may...let me try this one. First of all (I'll bet you think I am going to say "People are not dogs." Nope, that isn't what I'm going to say. Heck, even Jesus employed man's best maminal friend in at least one analogy. )

First of all, I am assuming that you love your dog, or you wouldn't forgive him for getting your sofa all muddy. You give him his freedom to go in and out, and you take the consequence for his actions. If you chained him up all the time so he couldn't run about and get muddy and return to you, that wouldn't seem much like love. And if he decided one day to dig out from under the garden gate, would you go looking for him? And if he didn't return, wouldn't you wait for him? If you know that you are the best caregiver for him, and you know he is lost, or headed for disaster, wouldn't you even maybe worry or cry? Would you do just about anything to bring him back to you? If you saw him running out in traffic, might you even put yourself in danger to save him? (LOL--I really love animals, can you tell?)

Anyway, if he just decided that he did not want or need you anymore, and just rejected you, would it hurt? But what could you do but let him go? Free will.

I know this is probably not a very good analogy, but I thought maybe I would try it on for size. Don't know if it will fit very well.

As Always--
InPeace,
InLove

 

[17th Angel]

Hey Angel

If I may...let me try this one. First of all (I'll bet you think I am going to say "People are not dogs." Nope, that isn't what I'm going to say. Heck, even Jesus employed man's best maminal friend in at least one analogy. )

First of all, I am assuming that you love your dog, or you wouldn't forgive him for getting your sofa all muddy. You give him his freedom to go in and out, and you take the consequence for his actions. If you chained him up all the time so he couldn't run about and get muddy and return to you, that wouldn't seem much like love. And if he decided one day to dig out from under the garden gate, would you go looking for him? And if he didn't return, wouldn't you wait for him? If you know that you are the best caregiver for him, and you know he is lost, or headed for disaster, wouldn't you even maybe worry or cry? Would you do just about anything to bring him back to you? If you saw him running out in traffic, might you even put yourself in danger to save him? (LOL--I really love animals, can you tell?)

Anyway, if he just decided that he did not want or need you anymore, and just rejected you, would it hurt? But what could you do but let him go? Free will.

I know this is probably not a very good analogy, but I thought maybe I would try it on for size. Don't know if it will fit very well.

As Always--
InPeace,
InLove

It is indeed interesting.. My dog hasn't jumped on my couch all muddy... that was just an example lol... I was going to use an example of her puppy days and weak bladder, then thought I best not and quickly made up the couch example. Yup I would be very upset if my dog ran away, but I know this will never happen as she is well trained by me And dogs are really not the idependent creature... They look up to you, you are their respected leader and head of pack. When you are the figure that says when we eat, when we go for a ride, when we go for a walk when we get water when we play... They become dependent on you. And do not challange that, ever.

Although there was one time in her younger puppy days where she rushed my wife, as we got out of the car. So this little bundle of 5stone barged passed her, I tried to dive across the seats to grab her lead and she was gone, running up the road behind us. We were parked next to a four story parking lot, the ones with them winding up roads with tight corners... She just with no fear or concern ran full pelt around this corner... And I just feared the worst, there was no way I was going to catch her. I ran around the corner and she was sat in the middle of the road with her head tilted just staring at sea gulls.... That was quite a scary time \;

 

[Dondi]

To be saved, a person must Repent and Trust in Jesus.

Repentence -

"In the New Testament, the word translated as 'repentance' is the Greek word μετάνοια (metanoia), "after/behind one's mind", which is a compound word of the preposition 'meta' (after, with), and the verb 'noeo' (to perceive, to think, the result of perceiving or observing). In this compound word the preposition combines the two meanings of time and change, which may be denoted by 'after' and 'different'; so that the whole compound means: 'to think differently after'. Metanoia is therefore primarily an after-thought, different from the former thought; a change of mind accompanied by regret and change of conduct, "change of mind and heart", or, "change of consciousness"."

Source - Wiki

So a person must willing to have a change of heart first about their sin and turn to God.

It is interesting that John the Baptist started his ministry preaching repentence:

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." - Matthew 3:1-2

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." - Mark 1:4

"...O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance...." - Luke 3:7-8

So repentence seems to be a command to action on the part of the sinner.

And, Look! After John the Baptist, Jesus preached the same thing:

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." - Matthew 4:17

And Behold! Peter preached the same after Pentacost:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." - Acts 2:38

Seems this repentence thing is a pre-requisite to getting saved and receiving the Holy Spirit. Am I not correct?

 

[InLove]

Thanks for considering my awkward example, Angel. I do understand what you mean about "training". If one is not taught something, can one understand? Well maybe not in the same respect as what we here in "The West" tend to call "traditional". But there are many ways of learning. There is direct experience, for example. I trust that God is God enough to reveal God to anyone--and I will go so far as to say this can happen even when He is not being sought after. But seeking doesn't hurt.

I'd better add that these are my views, and do not necessarily reflect that of all Christians. However, I are one, too.

Predestination is a difficult issue to grasp, particularly when we throw in the concept of free will. For me (not my ego, but in The Spirit), the two do not conflict. At this moment, I cannot expound much on this. But maybe at some point in the future I can, and maybe not right here. (Don't want to confuse the issue anymore than it already is--there are several slightly differing views being presented, even though it can be difficult to pick up on them.) I am certainly no expert theologian, which may or may not be advantageous to understanding in situations such as this.

Well, I know that may not help much, if at all. I just wanted you to know that your thoughts and sentiments are not lost on me.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Quahom1]

Free will is not freedom of will. We are not free to do as we please, with no consequences. We are free to choose one way or another. Regardless, there are results that we will deal with, depending on our "choice".

The free will of man with God is "yes, or no", there is no abstention in life. Nor is there "I'll blaze my own path, thank you god". All that is, is a series of "no, no, no, no, no,no,no,no,no,no,no".

Been there, done that, no fun.

 

[17th Angel]

Thanks for considering my awkward example, Angel. I do understand what you mean about "training". If one is not taught something, can one understand? Well maybe not in the same respect as what we here in "The West" tend to call "traditional". But there are many ways of learning. There is direct experience, for example. I trust that God is God enough to reveal God to anyone--and I will go so far as to say this can happen even when He is not being sought after. But seeking doesn't hurt.

I'd better add that these are my views, and do not necessarily reflect that of all Christians. However, I are one, too.

Predestination is a difficult issue to grasp, particularly when we throw in the concept of free will. For me (not my ego, but in The Spirit), the two do not conflict. At this moment, I cannot expound much on this. But maybe at some point in the future I can, and maybe not right here. (Don't want to confuse the issue anymore than it already is--there are several slightly differing views being presented, even though it can be difficult to pick up on them.) I am certainly no expert theologian, which may or may not be advantageous to understanding in situations such as this.

Well, I know that may not help much, if at all. I just wanted you to know that your thoughts and sentiments are not lost on me.

InPeace,
InLove

So why can't god come and "train" me?

no".

Been there, done that, no fun.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt had a blast, changed my ways went there did that decided to go back to where I was to begin with... With hope of a new t-shirt.

 

[InLove]

So why can't god come and "train" me?

He can. Maybe He is. Or, like I said, seeking appears to be an option.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[17th Angel]

He can. Maybe He is. Or, like I said, seeking appears to be an option.

InPeace,
InLove

This I am sure, shall sound stubborn, evil, sinner!!! and so on and so forth... but, I did my seeking... I found nothing to convince me... So as you logically would do on a search that goes on and on and on with nothing found, you call it off. I would need jesus christ to appear in front of my eyes maybe do a little tap dance and who knows maybe jump through a hoop of fire... I would applaud and be like "There is a god..." OR!! For god himself to appear and squash one of them cream pie things in my face! Or send an angel like he seemed to do in the bible for loads of people.... Why is that so hard to do? I can't figure that... In the bible god speaks to everyone and gives them lil tasks... build a boat, go deliver a message, go free your people... and so on... Why no longer? Why the cease of communication... The best way to get understanding with someone is communication... so err why not use it? Besides there will be someone bound to pop up and squeak "That would eliminate your free will!!" No it wouldn't.. You may think your head is having flash backs from all the substances from your youth and the 70's... You may think you're going nuts... You may realise whats going on and then choose to obey... Or as isiah said... some wouldn't want to obey anywho. So some still would say they were not interested.

 

[Quahom1]

And still, we love you 17th, (sigh)

 

[InLove]

Well, I see your point, Angel, but I'll just say that there is still communication. I trust that there always has been. What I am saying is that God has provided an avenue.

If I were to say more right here, it would derail the thread--and it isn't my thread to derail.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[17th Angel]

And still, we love you 17th, (sigh)

And I respect you people.

Well, I see your point, Angel, but I'll just say that there is still communication. I trust that there always has been. What I am saying is that God has provided an avenue.

If I were to say more right here, it would derail the thread--and it isn't my thread to derail.

InPeace,
InLove

True, sorry my bad.

 

[Quahom1]

And I respect you people.



True, sorry my bad.

In the immortal words of Jimmy Cagney -

"Shee, two kinds of attitude get you respect around here...one is blessedness like the shister there, and the other is cussedness, like myeee...!"

 

[17th Angel]

In the immortal words of Jimmy Cagney -

"Shee, two kinds of attitude get you respect around here...one is blessedness like the shister there, and the other is cussedness, like myeee...!"

I have no idea who he is lol... But sounds like he has a lisp... :O I just go with the "Give respect to get respect."

 

[Silas]

17th Angel

That's a load of crap...... Ugh my eyes are watering... such a strong aroma of self righteousness coming off this one...

The crux of the issue between man and God is that we call ourselves good when He calls us evil. Be certian that your creator God calls you evil and that you need Christ' righteousness to be seen as "good" in His eyes. Apart from Christ, you are the worst of people, because it is only by his grace that you even obey His commandments. You do this unknowingly and claim you do it for yourself. If you are found without Christ on the day of your judgement, you will suffer God's Holy Wrath for not only spurning His grace, but for taking the credit for the good you do when it is ONLY by God's grace you do it.

I know many GOOD people... You don't need to have your god to be a good person. You and all other christians are not better than me or non christians...

Bingo! I am no better than you or any body. Apart from Christ, I am Hitler for lack of God giving me opportunity to be as evil as I can be. I would ask you to judge yourself by Jesus, since He is God's standard of goodness. Dont judge yourself by other people, because compared to them, you probabably are a good person. But again, Judge yourself by Jesus and the Law of God (The Ten Commandments) and let the weight of the law crush you. If you feel that you need forgivess from God for your law breaking, call out to Christ and He will gladly save you!

 

[17th Angel]

The crux of the issue between man and God is that we call ourselves good when He calls us evil. Be certian that your creator God calls you evil and that you need Christ' righteousness to be seen as "good" in His eyes. Apart from Christ, you are the worst of people, because it is only by his grace that you even obey His commandments. You do this unknowingly and claim you do it for yourself. If you are found without Christ on the day of your judgement, you will suffer God's Holy Wrath for not only spurning His grace, but for taking the credit for the good you do when it is ONLY by God's grace you do it.

Hmmm so if I do something good, god should take the credit? If I do something evil? Oh I guess I take the credit for that.... or the devil :O With this being the case.... do we have free will? Or are we simply freaking puppets and your god and satan are two spoilt little children trying to fight over the controls of the puppet and not willing to share the puppet.

Bingo! I am no better than you or any body. Apart from Christ, I am Hitler for lack of God giving me opportunity to be as evil as I can be. I would ask you to judge yourself by Jesus, since He is God's standard of goodness. Dont judge yourself by other people, because compared to them, you probabably are a good person. But again, Judge yourself by Jesus and the Law of God (The Ten Commandments) and let the weight of the law crush you. If you feel that you need forgivess from God for your law breaking, call out to Christ and He will gladly save you!

I do not feel like I need forgivness.. I haven't done anything to ask to be forgiven for... So being humble isn't an option, I am far from humble.

 

[Silas]

Repentence -

"In the New Testament, the word translated as 'repentance' is the Greek word μετάνοια (metanoia), "after/behind one's mind", which is a compound word of the preposition 'meta' (after, with), and the verb 'noeo' (to perceive, to think, the result of perceiving or observing). In this compound word the preposition combines the two meanings of time and change, which may be denoted by 'after' and 'different'; so that the whole compound means: 'to think differently after'. Metanoia is therefore primarily an after-thought, different from the former thought; a change of mind accompanied by regret and change of conduct, "change of mind and heart", or, "change of consciousness"."

Source - Wiki

So a person must willing to have a change of heart first about their sin and turn to God.

It is interesting that John the Baptist started his ministry preaching repentence:

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." - Matthew 3:1-2

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." - Mark 1:4

"...O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance...." - Luke 3:7-8

So repentence seems to be a command to action on the part of the sinner.

And, Look! After John the Baptist, Jesus preached the same thing:

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." - Matthew 4:17

And Behold! Peter preached the same after Pentacost:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." - Acts 2:38

Seems this repentence thing is a pre-requisite to getting saved and receiving the Holy Spirit. Am I not correct?

Way to go!!! I was waiting for someone to say this. Yes, Metanoia (repetance) IS a command and pre-requisite for being saved! So the obvious question from you should now be why then do I believe in predestination? Simple. Because metanoia, like Pistis (saving faith), is a gift that God gives, e.g., 2Ti 2:25 Acts, 5:31, Acts 11:18, Acts 2:36-39, etc. If God doesnt give one this gift, they remain in their natural state of loving sin and hating God (totally depraved).

 

[Silas]

17th Angel

Hmmm so if I do something good, god should take the credit?

Yes, it is by His grace that you do good. It is by His grace that you're breathing His air and not standing before Him being judged as a guilty sinner. You ought to thank Him!

If I do something evil? Oh I guess I take the credit for that.... or the devil :O

If you do something bad, you should take the credit, since all bad desieres come from within you.

With this being the case.... do we have free will?

You have a free will to do all you want and with it, you choose to not repent and come to Christ. Why? Because you dont want to submit to Him, you'd rather be free.

Or are we simply freaking puppets and your god and satan are two spoilt little children trying to fight over the controls of the puppet and not willing to share the puppet.

No. God is God! He's totally Sovereign and in total control. Do not image that He is in Heaven trying to fight satan for souls. Rather, He knows His and is happy! Moreover, is He not willing that any perish but that all of His will come to the faith. Then, He will come back and judge the unrighteous unbelievers in righteousness. I beg you, dont die without the Savior. Do not die spurning God's grace. If anything any Christian said to you concerning sin and why Jesus came, please repent and trust in Jesus and you will be saved.

I do not feel like I need forgivness.. I haven't done anything to ask to be forgiven for... So being humble isn't an option, I am far from humble.

If you say you dont have sin you make God a liar. The sad/scary thing about unbelievers is that they dont even have the grace to see their guilt before God since they choose not to anyway. Have you ever lied before? That makes you a liar in God's eyes. Have you ever looked with lust? That makes you and adulter in God's eyes. Have you ever been angry with a person before? That makes you a murderer in God's eyes. God is THAT PERFECT. He not only judges our actions, but our heart's intent. You have thought things you should not have and you have done things you shouldnt have. God sees ALL your sins: From youth to NOW and He will by no means let the guilty go unpunished. If you repent and trust in Christ, Jesus' righteousness will be credited to you and your crimes will be imputed to Him, where He suffered for them on the cross. Repent and Trust in Christ.

 

[17th Angel]

Silas, Catholic?



You ever hear the saying "god is perfect, but not a perfectionist..." Whats your thoughts on that?

 

[Silas]

Silas, Catholic?

You ever hear the saying "god is perfect, but not a perfectionist..." Whats your thoughts on that?

Nah, never heard that saying at all! Its not even biblical...the God of the Bible is both Perfect and a perfectionist. The thing about the unsaved person is that he/she dont love the True and Holy God. They create idols in their minds and say stuff like "my god will not send anyone to hell. he is a god of love." They're are right though, their God will never send anyone to hell because he does not exist. He is a figment of their imagination. Bow to the True and Living God and do not committe idolatry (2nd Commandment). Repent and Trust in Jesus. Oh by the way, Im not a Catholoic. Im just a sinner saved by grace. Oh yeah, and I have prodestant views.

 

[17th Angel]

Nah, never heard that saying at all! Its not even biblical...the God of the Bible is both Perfect and a perfectionist. The thing about the unsaved person is that they dont love this Holy God. They create idols in their minds and say stuff like "my god will not send anyone to hell. he is a god of love." They're right though. They're are right though, their God will never send anyone to hell because he does not exist. He is a figment of their imagination. Bow to the True and Living God and do not committe idolatry (2nd Commandment). Repent and Trust in Jesus. Oh by the way, Im not a Catholoic. Im just a sinner saved by grace. Oh yeah, and I have prodestant views.

Suprising.. You are very hell and brimstone ain't cha? Gives me shivers