According to both John and Mark, the women came on the first day of the week, early in the morning.
Mark says the sun had risen, John says it was still dark, but either way, it's the morning of the day.
Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
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Mark says the sun had risen, John says it was still dark, but either way, it's the morning of the day.
I don't see where John says it was early in the morning.
So even though it was dark out, you're suggesting that "The first (day) of the week..." is referring to the daytime of a 12 hour calendar day.
And I repeat that I don't see where John says it was early in the morning.
TheLightWithin
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Just a few lines down, John 21:4.
TheLightWithin
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Ok but if you are indeed talking about John 20:1 it outright says "Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance."
Early in the day while it is still dark means first thing in the morning (before sunrise).
Am I misunderstanding or is that what you all have been trying to establish?
Or am I missing something?
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I am. And I still don't see where it says it was early in the morning.
Apparently, we both are.
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
John 20:1
"Τῇ δὲ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ ἔρχεται πρωῒ σκοτίας ἔτι οὔσης εἰς τὸ μνημεῖον καὶ βλέπει τὸν λίθον ἠρμένον ἐκ τοῦ μνημείου"
DBH translation:
"Now early on the first (day) of the Sabbath-week, while it is still dark, Mary the Magdalene comes to the tomb and sees that the stone has been removed from the tomb... "
Please show me where the word "morning" is in that sentence.
Really ... you're really going to pursue this?
I would suggest that 'early' on any day, 'while it is still dark' suggests the morning. Ity's clearly not the eventing, is it?
But, because I wondered how Hart translated other texts – such as Luke 24:1:
"But on the first day of the week, in the deep dawnlight ... " whereas the KJV has:
"And on the first day of the week, very early in the morning ...
(The Greek phrase is ὄρθρου βαθέοςis, orthros bathos – orthros (daybreak, dawn, early in the morning), bathos (literally – 'deep', figuratively 'very early').
Mark 16:2:
"And very early on the first day of the Sabbath-week they come to the tomb, as the sun is rising... "
Matthew 28:1:
"But after the Sabbath, at the dawn of the first day of the Sabbath-week ..."
I would suggest that 'early' on any day, 'while it is still dark' suggests the morning. Ity's clearly not the eventing, is it?
But, because I wondered how Hart translated other texts – such as Luke 24:1:
"But on the first day of the week, in the deep dawnlight ... " whereas the KJV has:
"And on the first day of the week, very early in the morning ...
(The Greek phrase is ὄρθρου βαθέοςis, orthros bathos – orthros (daybreak, dawn, early in the morning), bathos (literally – 'deep', figuratively 'very early').
Mark 16:2:
"And very early on the first day of the Sabbath-week they come to the tomb, as the sun is rising... "
Matthew 28:1:
"But after the Sabbath, at the dawn of the first day of the Sabbath-week ..."
TheLightWithin
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It says early in the day while it was still dark.
Do you think there is ambiguity there? That that passage could, somehow, signify something other than morning?
Do you think it's odd that people reading it think it refers to early morning?
talib-al-kalim
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No, it's clear. The morning dawn is the beginning of the day. For us Muslim it's the time of the first day prayer (الفجر).
Jews pray שחרית after sunrise, but it's also natural for them and others to say that the daybreak is at the first dawn.
I guess it depends. When does morning begin with relation to the sun?
Ah, you're probably looking for a technical or astronomical answer, which could well lead you astray.
a quick look online tells me:
Linguistically 'morning' is from midnight to noon, i.e. we say 11 o'clock at night, 12 o'clock midnight, 1 o'clock in the morning.
Astronomical morning is when the sun is 18 degrees below the horizon and the sky is beginning to lighten. This marks the beginning of astronomical twilight, which lasts until nautical dawn. The sky is very faint during astronomical morning, and it's often hard to distinguish from night.
Let's look at the texts:
Matthew 28:1
"... as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week (epiphōskō eis heis sabbaton)"
epiphosko a verb, 'began to dawn' or 'to grow light', it also translates as 'to draw on'.
eis 'towards' or 'into'
heis 'the first'
sabbaton, of Hebrew origin, meaning the sabbath (the seventh day or day set aside for religious observation), but also the interval between two sabbaths, or the week, depending on context.
('day' is implied by 'the first')
So we have beginning to grow light on the first day of the week.
Mark 16:2
"And very early in the morning (proi) the first day of the week ... at the rising of the sun."
proi adverb 'early in the morning' the term itself from the proto Indo-European and proto-Greek 'towards' or 'leading to'. It also designates any time covered in the fourth watch – 3:00-6:00am – so very early in the morning, at the rising of the sun, so around dawn.
Luke 24:1
"... very early in the morning (bathys orthros)"
bathys 'deep' literally (as in the 'deep well' of John 4:11, or 'deep sleep' as in acts 20:9)
orthros 'early dawn', 'daybreak' or 'early morning'.
John 20:1
"... cometh Mary Magdalene early (proi), when it was yet dark ... "
So across the four we have a general consensus that Mary came very early, around dawn, while still dark, more likely twilight.
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A Freeman
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People have been wrongly trained for centuries by the Romans and Roman Catholicism, to see things in this world upside down and backwards. And that includes when the day actually begins and ends.
According to Scripture, the current-day ends at sunset, which is when the new/next day begins. So the beginning of the day is what is referred to as evening (after sunset), which is followed by the morning (sunrise).
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And the evening and the morning were the First Day.
See also: Gen. 1:8, 1:13, 1:19, 1:23 and 1:31.
According to Scripture, the current-day ends at sunset, which is when the new/next day begins. So the beginning of the day is what is referred to as evening (after sunset), which is followed by the morning (sunrise).
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And the evening and the morning were the First Day.
See also: Gen. 1:8, 1:13, 1:19, 1:23 and 1:31.
A Freeman
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The centerpiece of Christianity is or should be the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. And yet most of it is completely misunderstood.
Christ, through the mouth of Jesus, very plainly stated that the body of Jesus would be buried "in the heart of the earth" for 3 days AND 3 nights (a 72 hour period).
Matthew 12:39-40
12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and unfaithfull generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the Prophet Jonah:
12:40 For as Jonah was three days AND three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of Man be three days AND three nights in the heart of the earth.
It should be self-evident that Friday night to early Sun-day morning, regardless of how one attempts to count the days, cannot possibly be 3 nights.
Jesus was crucified and died on a WEDNESDAY (in the "midst of the week") exactly as prophesied (Daniel 9:27), and God raised Jesus 3 days and 3 nights later on the weekly SABBATH DAY, aka "The Lord's Day" (the seventh day of the week). That's why the women who arrived at the tomb early on the first day of the week found it EMPTY. It was empty because Jesus had already risen on the weekly Sabbath day.
Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night (remembering that the evening precedes the morning) IS 3 nights.
And the entire picture of this is provided by putting together ALL of the relevant passages from the Gospel accounts recorded by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, which tell us that there were TWO SABBATHS that week; the first was the High Sabbath that follows Passover (to begin the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which occurred that week on what we now call Thursday) and the second Sabbath was the weekly Sabbath (the 7th day of the week - what we now call Saturday).
That's why Matthew 28:1 uses the term sabbaton, which is plural.
Matthew 28:1 After the (two) Sabbaths, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week (Sunday), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
It's also how it was possible for the women to purchase and prepare the spices and ointments AFTER the crucifixion, but before the weekly Sabbath, because the sixth day of the week (Friday) was the day of preparation. The women would not have known to purchase and prepare the spices and ointments until after the death of Jesus, and they could not possibly have purchased and prepared the spices and ointments on the weekly Sabbath day, because that would have violated The Law to honor/honour the Sabbath.
Christ, through the mouth of Jesus, very plainly stated that the body of Jesus would be buried "in the heart of the earth" for 3 days AND 3 nights (a 72 hour period).
Matthew 12:39-40
12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and unfaithfull generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the Prophet Jonah:
12:40 For as Jonah was three days AND three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of Man be three days AND three nights in the heart of the earth.
It should be self-evident that Friday night to early Sun-day morning, regardless of how one attempts to count the days, cannot possibly be 3 nights.
Jesus was crucified and died on a WEDNESDAY (in the "midst of the week") exactly as prophesied (Daniel 9:27), and God raised Jesus 3 days and 3 nights later on the weekly SABBATH DAY, aka "The Lord's Day" (the seventh day of the week). That's why the women who arrived at the tomb early on the first day of the week found it EMPTY. It was empty because Jesus had already risen on the weekly Sabbath day.
Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night (remembering that the evening precedes the morning) IS 3 nights.
And the entire picture of this is provided by putting together ALL of the relevant passages from the Gospel accounts recorded by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, which tell us that there were TWO SABBATHS that week; the first was the High Sabbath that follows Passover (to begin the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which occurred that week on what we now call Thursday) and the second Sabbath was the weekly Sabbath (the 7th day of the week - what we now call Saturday).
That's why Matthew 28:1 uses the term sabbaton, which is plural.
Matthew 28:1 After the (two) Sabbaths, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week (Sunday), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
It's also how it was possible for the women to purchase and prepare the spices and ointments AFTER the crucifixion, but before the weekly Sabbath, because the sixth day of the week (Friday) was the day of preparation. The women would not have known to purchase and prepare the spices and ointments until after the death of Jesus, and they could not possibly have purchased and prepared the spices and ointments on the weekly Sabbath day, because that would have violated The Law to honor/honour the Sabbath.
A Freeman
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For any who may be interested in going through the associated passages in the Gospel accounts:
Many mistakenly believe that Jesus died on a Friday, because we are told in the Gospel accounts that they had to get the body down before the Sabbath began (at sunset). What many may not realize is that there were TWO SABBATHS (Matt. 28:1) the week of the crucifixion. It obviously couldn't have been a Friday, because even if we count both Friday night and Saturday night it would only be two nights.
The first was a "high" Sabbath (or high holy day – please see Lev. 23:5-7), which marked the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread that follows Passover.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath day, (for that Sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away.
The second was the weekly Sabbath which took place on Saturday, the seventh day of the week, as always (beginning immediately after sunset on Friday and ending at sunset on Saturday).
If we take a look at all of the gospel accounts of the Crucifixion and Resurrection—and read what they ACTUALLY say—the picture becomes quite clear.
Matthew 28:1-6
28:1 After the (two) Sabbaths, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men].
28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Christ-Jesus was not there early on Sun-day (the first day of the week) because He had already risen on Saturday, the Sabbath Day/The Lord’s Day.
Mark 16:1-8
16:1 And when the (High) Sabbath was PAST, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, had BOUGHT sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
16:2 And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
16:3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
16:4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus the Nazarite, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
16:7 But go your way, tell his disciples AND Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
16:8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any [man]; for they were afraid.
Please note well that the Marys came just after the weekly Sabbath had ended and they found the tomb EMPTY. Why? BECAUSE HE HAD ALREADY RISEN ON THE SABBATH DAY (Saturday). Please also note that Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, would not have known to buy sweet spices before the crucifixion, nor would they have been able to buy them on either the high Sabbath or the weekly Sabbath. Conducting commerce of any kind is strictly forbidden on the Sabbath (Exod. 20:8-11, Neh. 10:31, 13:15-21), i.e. there's no buying or selling allowed.
Remember, they had to hurry to take down the body of Jesus (Mark 15:42-47) and bury it before the high Sabbath began. So there wasn't anytime for them to purchase spices before the Sabbath. And yet very early on the first day of the week they came to the sepulchre, with spices THEY COULD ONLY HAVE BOUGHT AND PREPARED ON FRIDAY, the day between the high Sabbath on Thursday and the weekly Sabbath on Saturday.
The account in Luke confirms this as well.
Luke 23:44-56
23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the "Temple Veil" (to the "Holy of Holies") was rent in the midst.
23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the Spirit.
23:47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.
23:48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.
23:49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.
23:50 And, behold, [there was] a man named Joseph, a counsellor (and "Minister of Mines" - to the romans as well as the jews); [and he was] a good man, and a just (and was Jesus' great-uncle):
23:51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them
[he was] of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the Kingdom of God.
23:52 This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the Sabbath drew on.
23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments (which they bought on Friday, AFTER the High Sabbath); and rested the (weekly) Sabbath day according to the Commandment (Exod. 20:8, Deut. 5:14).
Please pay particular attention to the final three verses. They laid the body of Jesus in the sepulchre on the day of preparation (the Passover day preceding the high Sabbath) and the Sabbath drew on (the sun set and the high-Sabbath began).
It then says they returned and prepared spices and ointments – a task that they would not have been able to do on the Sabbath by Law – and then rested the (weekly) Sabbath day, after preparing the spices on Friday.
John 19:40-42, 20:1
19:40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation [day]; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
20:1 The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
It would have been impossible for the two Marys to have purchased the spices before Jesus was crucified because they didn't know in advance He would be arrested and executed, all of which happened in less than 24 hours. On Tuesday evening that week (as the sun set Tuesday evening and it became Wednesday) Jesus was celebrating the Passover with His Disciples. He was then arrested in the wee hours of the morning Wednesday and crucified later that same day, from the sixth to the ninth hour.
So again, the only way the two Marys could have purchased and prepared the spices/ointments, is for there to have been a day in between the high Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath that week. This confirms the Wednesday crucifixion prophesied in Daniel 9:27, placing the high Sabbath on Thursday.
Christ even defined the length of a day and a night if anyone cares to take notice:
John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
12 hours in the day + 12 hours in the night (when people stumble in the dark) = 24 hours.
Many mistakenly believe that Jesus died on a Friday, because we are told in the Gospel accounts that they had to get the body down before the Sabbath began (at sunset). What many may not realize is that there were TWO SABBATHS (Matt. 28:1) the week of the crucifixion. It obviously couldn't have been a Friday, because even if we count both Friday night and Saturday night it would only be two nights.
The first was a "high" Sabbath (or high holy day – please see Lev. 23:5-7), which marked the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread that follows Passover.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath day, (for that Sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away.
The second was the weekly Sabbath which took place on Saturday, the seventh day of the week, as always (beginning immediately after sunset on Friday and ending at sunset on Saturday).
If we take a look at all of the gospel accounts of the Crucifixion and Resurrection—and read what they ACTUALLY say—the picture becomes quite clear.
Matthew 28:1-6
28:1 After the (two) Sabbaths, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men].
28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Christ-Jesus was not there early on Sun-day (the first day of the week) because He had already risen on Saturday, the Sabbath Day/The Lord’s Day.
Mark 16:1-8
16:1 And when the (High) Sabbath was PAST, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, had BOUGHT sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
16:2 And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
16:3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
16:4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus the Nazarite, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
16:7 But go your way, tell his disciples AND Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
16:8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any [man]; for they were afraid.
Please note well that the Marys came just after the weekly Sabbath had ended and they found the tomb EMPTY. Why? BECAUSE HE HAD ALREADY RISEN ON THE SABBATH DAY (Saturday). Please also note that Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, would not have known to buy sweet spices before the crucifixion, nor would they have been able to buy them on either the high Sabbath or the weekly Sabbath. Conducting commerce of any kind is strictly forbidden on the Sabbath (Exod. 20:8-11, Neh. 10:31, 13:15-21), i.e. there's no buying or selling allowed.
Remember, they had to hurry to take down the body of Jesus (Mark 15:42-47) and bury it before the high Sabbath began. So there wasn't anytime for them to purchase spices before the Sabbath. And yet very early on the first day of the week they came to the sepulchre, with spices THEY COULD ONLY HAVE BOUGHT AND PREPARED ON FRIDAY, the day between the high Sabbath on Thursday and the weekly Sabbath on Saturday.
The account in Luke confirms this as well.
Luke 23:44-56
23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the "Temple Veil" (to the "Holy of Holies") was rent in the midst.
23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the Spirit.
23:47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.
23:48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.
23:49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.
23:50 And, behold, [there was] a man named Joseph, a counsellor (and "Minister of Mines" - to the romans as well as the jews); [and he was] a good man, and a just (and was Jesus' great-uncle):
23:51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them
[he was] of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the Kingdom of God.23:52 This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the Sabbath drew on.
23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments (which they bought on Friday, AFTER the High Sabbath); and rested the (weekly) Sabbath day according to the Commandment (Exod. 20:8, Deut. 5:14).
Please pay particular attention to the final three verses. They laid the body of Jesus in the sepulchre on the day of preparation (the Passover day preceding the high Sabbath) and the Sabbath drew on (the sun set and the high-Sabbath began).
It then says they returned and prepared spices and ointments – a task that they would not have been able to do on the Sabbath by Law – and then rested the (weekly) Sabbath day, after preparing the spices on Friday.
John 19:40-42, 20:1
19:40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation [day]; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
20:1 The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
It would have been impossible for the two Marys to have purchased the spices before Jesus was crucified because they didn't know in advance He would be arrested and executed, all of which happened in less than 24 hours. On Tuesday evening that week (as the sun set Tuesday evening and it became Wednesday) Jesus was celebrating the Passover with His Disciples. He was then arrested in the wee hours of the morning Wednesday and crucified later that same day, from the sixth to the ninth hour.
So again, the only way the two Marys could have purchased and prepared the spices/ointments, is for there to have been a day in between the high Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath that week. This confirms the Wednesday crucifixion prophesied in Daniel 9:27, placing the high Sabbath on Thursday.
Christ even defined the length of a day and a night if anyone cares to take notice:
John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
12 hours in the day + 12 hours in the night (when people stumble in the dark) = 24 hours.