Burned at the stake for the Bible

Just to clarify a point for accuracy:

As you know, Catholics used to be required to go to church on Sundays. (This has changed. How can universal law change...?)
This has not changed, but nor was it ever a 'universal law', nor indeed was it ever always the case.

Then there is the difference between a venial sin and a mortal sin ... Then there is the topic of scapulas. On and on it goes. I kept trying to get answers to all of these questions. I never got them.
In my experience, you do get answers, but ignore them if they're not what you want to hear.

Above you stated:
I grew up in the Catholic church, went to a Catholic high school, and even applied to become a priest. Not once in all those years was I ever offered an opportunity to attend a Bible study class in any Catholic building nor was one ever held that I knew of.
Now you talk about growing up in the Church, attending Sunday school, a Catholic high school ... yet you misunderstand or are unaware of even basic Catholic doctrine. You even speak of a vocation to the priesthood ... I can but wonder at your degree of ignorance, and wonder also how you discern a vocation when you obviously so poorly informed.

If I were you, from experience to date, I would assume that everything you know about Catholicism is wrong, dump it all, and walk away. Stick to Theosophy, and within the bounds of things you know about.

Thomas
 
Actually your mother was wrong. It was never considered a mortal sin to break a fast.


Quite right. A mortal sin is considered mortal because it refuses the offer (and conditions therein) of salvation. Ergo if you make a decision that cuts you off from the source of life ...


But that's not what is professed. No mortal sin is 'transient', but then, by the grace of God the outcome is not irrevocable. A mortal sin is an offence against God, that's why we consider it mortal — God does retain the option however to forgive whomsoever he chooses — this does not render the mortal sin itself transient, but rather points to the Lord's infinite depths of mercy.


Actually, the Church preaches otherwise. Infallibility rests on the Word of God, not the word of man, and God said He would be with his Church always and evil will not prevail against Her — what the soul is to the body, the Holy Spirit is to the Church.

Thomas

If she was wrong she wasn't the only one.

http://www.angelfire.com/ky/dodone/FF.html

Many older Catholics talk about the days when Friday fast laws were in place in the Roman Catholic Church. They were warned that they would go to Hell if they ate meat. Many of them were surprised when a priest wrote in a recent column, "No one ever went to Hell for eating meat on Friday."
But, older Catholics assure me, they were told that eating meat was a mortal sin, but the fine tuning of this theology was never explained to them.
The reason eating meat was a mortal sin was that the law to abstain from meat on Friday was one of the current Laws of the church. People went to Hell not specifically for eating meat, but for breaking one of the Laws of the Church.
I just cannot believe anything a human being could be an offence against God. This is like you being offended by a microbe. It just doesn't make sense but seems more a method of control.
 
"...and it was counter productive..."

--> I do not think Thomas agrees. I think Thomas is truly saddened by the fact that the RCC used to burn people alive. But if this is true, how could a Pope, who is 'guided' by some type of infallibility, allow such burnings? We await Thomas' explanation.

Or, it may be that Thomas does indeed feel the burnings were justified.

We will never know until Thomas breaks his silence on this topic.
 
Hi Juantoo —

The idea of a "chosen few" is not unique to the Reformation...
No it's not, but the idea that God chooses some for perdition is absolutely rejected in traditional Christianity.

That said, where did the presumption that G-d "knows all beforetime" come from? I have argued strenuously against determinism...
That's a fair comment, but I do think your Catholic sources are wrong. Reformation Christianity works on degrees of determinism, but not traditional (ie RCC and the Patriarchates) Christianity.

If you ever come across their sources, let me know. I'll try and dig something up doctrinally. The confusions rests, I believe, on the idea of God's omniscience and omnipotence.

God knows all before time, so God knows that Fred is heaven-bound, and Charlie for the other place. Therefore if God's will be done, then that's the way God wants it to be ...

But does God therefore determine beforehand that Fred goes up, and Charlie down? No. Fred is always free to ****-up, Charlie is always free to see the error of his ways. They say the angels weep when man sins, the angel delight when he returns to the fold ... but the angels do not interfere, because the Father does not interfere.

Confront your friends with the Parable of the Prodigal Son. How much does the father in that situation determine his son's choices? Other than giving him his freedom, none at all. He does not pursue the son, nor does he arrange for his son's reception in a foreign land ... when the son falls into the most unimaginably dire circumstances (how low can a good Jew fall — sleeping with pigs and presumably fighting with them for a share of the trough) the father does not step in to save him ... all the while the father acknowledges the son's desire to make his own decisions, even if those decisions are wrong.

The issue is freedom. Man is always 'free', and as I have argued, the only 'real' freedom, the ontological source of freedom, is to accept or refuse the will of God. The moment man loses that option, the option to sin, he loses his freedom, his dignity, and he ceases to be human in the fullest sense of the word.

God, on the other hand, continually tries to show man that outside the Good, there is only hunger. All lesser goods are by their very nature ephemeral, transient, chimeraic, illusory ... only in God is our hunger assuaged, whilst every other good leaves us wanting more, if not addicted ... but the glamour of these lesser goods has a magnetic appeal (as the Eden story tells us), and man continually opts for the latter.

God could make us obey Him at the drop of a proverbial hat — Jeez, he's done enough will pillars of fire, rumbling mountains, raising the dead, curing the sick, walking on water ... but that's not the way.

God wants us to want Him because we choose to, not because we have no other option. Nor does God want that some don't want him.

God is love ... that's the way love works.

Thomas
 
Hi Nick —

If she was wrong she wasn't the only one.
Quite possibly ... but this is probably a generational thing.

later in the same text it says:
... I have not seen any infallible statement about this, so there doesn't seem to be a law that says you must do some penance on Friday, but conservative scholars say that you do.
Theologians don't make the rules. To be a mortal sin requires it to have been the subject of a Magisterial statement.

Thomas
 
Why, Thomas, are we speaking again...

Not really, as a discussion requires a two-way exchange, and with you I get the feeling it's all your way or no way.

My point in posting was to preserve others from your errors.

The rest was not a discussion, just a piece of advice, take it or leave it. As someone so wedded to the idea of karma, I would have though the bad karma accrued through the dissemination of your negativism and error with regard to an ancient doctrine would be something to avoid.

You have had a catholic upbringing, High School and Sunday School education, and have learned nothing. Here you show no desire to learn, but simply state your prejudicial views on Catholicism, and offer offence to Catholics where you can.

Thomas
 
But if this is true, how could a Pope, who is 'guided' by some type of infallibility, allow such burnings? We await Thomas' explanation.
As the question of infallibility has occurred here and elsewhere, I shall take this opportunity to clarify the teaching for anyone who might actually be interested.

Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility as follows (my comments in parentheses):
Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility (and a pope is a bishop), they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively.

The point here is that it is the teaching itself that is infallible, not the teacher. If a bishop decides to give his own slant or opinion, or has himself misunderstood the teaching, then neither we nor he are infallibly bound by what he has said.

And when a lay person gets it right, the teaching is infallible because the teaching is infallible, not because of the person.

Infallibility covers matters of faith and morals only, and does not apply to any other issue.

A case in point was Pope Honorius I (from 625-638), who was later condemned as a heretic, for comments made in a letter which, whilst an official reply to a formal consultation, was equally a private discussion between the pope and his correspondent Sergius, and not addressed to the Church as a whole. Honorius got a very delicate point of faith wrong (on the issue of monothelitism and monophysitism). As the letter does neither defines nor condemns a teaching, and in no way makes any binding requirement upon its recipient, or the Church as a whole, it cannot be considered an ex cathedra statement, nor can it be considered under the indefectible charism of the Holy Church.

Thus a Pope can hold any opinion he so chooses, but that does not make it infallible because it is the opinion of a Pope. The current Pope, Benedict XVI, has published a number of books, none of which are in themselves infallible, but purely the work of a pastor and theologian.

The Pope has written two encyclical letters, Deus Caritas Est and Spe Salvi. These issue from the Office of Peter, as pastoral works addresed to the whole church by the Vicar of Christ, and whilst they offer a sure and certain teaching, again neither define nor condemn a specific teaching, therefore are not considered ex cathedra statements and binding upon the Church, although they are 'safe bet' and you won't be condemned for using them as a reference theologically. (In fact Benedict has introduced some startlingly new insights into the teaching of Purgatory that has given more than a few theologians something to think about.)

On the other hand, Pope Paul VI's encyclical Humanae Vitae stated clearly and succinctly the Church's opposition to birth control, so is considered an ex cathedra statement in that regard.

In discussing Pope Paul's right to declare such a position as infallibly the proper position of the Church, one needs to trace his sources in Scripture and Tradition on which the teaching is founded. As the encyclical is founded on sure Scripture, Tradition and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, we regard it as infallible.

(As an aside, all Protestant churches were against contraception until the 1930's, at which point the Anglican Communion caved in under social pressure, and the others followed ... once the sacrosanct nature of human life was abandoned, in just over 50 years patients are killed daily in our hospitals as a matter of routine, in accordance with economic necessity.)

Infallibility belongs in a special way to the Pope as head of the bishops (Matthew 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter."
This does not mean that the Pope's position is inarguable — for Paul argued and indeed berated Peter for his actions as detailed in Acts, whilst still acknowledging Peter as head of the Church. St Catherine of Sienna, a Doctor of the Church, Saint and Mystic, was notable for giving Pope Gregory XI a really rough time and insisted he moved the papacy from Avignon back to Rome, and reform the clergy of his day.

It does mean his word is final, and binding.

The infallibility of the pope is not a doctrine that suddenly appeared in Church teaching; rather, it is a doctrine which was implicit in the early Church. It is only our understanding of infallibility which has developed and been more clearly understood over time. In fact, the doctrine of infallibility is implicit in these Petrine texts: John 21:15–17 ("Feed my sheep... "), Luke 22:32 ("I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail"), and Matthew 16:18 ("You are Peter... ")

To answer a specific point, the condemnation of a teaching and, in some cases, its teacher, has been the subject of ex cathedra statements, defined in the phrase "anathema sit" — 'let him/her/it be condemned' ... that's it.

So a teaching is condemned, and even a person is condemned, but how that person is to be treated is not the subject of an ex cathedra statement, so the treatment of heretics, be it execution, imprisonment, exile, or simply the withdrawal of a teaching licence (as is the case today) is not a matter of infallibility, be it of the Pope, the Magisterium, or the Church as a whole. In fact, such treatment usually corresponds to the secular norms of the day, which are far from infallible ...

Or, it may be that Thomas does indeed feel the burnings were justified. We will never know until Thomas breaks his silence on this topic.
As I have stated my position on this point quite clearly, I read this as continuing his policy of following Thosophical 'black-propaganda' anti-Catholic mischief-making...

Anyone else is welcome. If it's a big-deal issue, we can take it elsewhere, although as it's 'house rules', as it were, I sometimes wonder why it's so important to those not in 'the house'.

I have house rules in my house, and if you are in my house you are expected to abide by them, whether you agree or not (no tricks, you understand, nothing esoteric, just don't spit on the carpets, or make overt and/or offensive advances towards my daughters, set the furniture alight ... that kind of thing). And if you don't, I will ask you to leave, and expect you to go. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

But then I happen to think the football referee's word is final, even though he's not guaranteed by God.

Thomas
 
Hi Juantoo —


No it's not, but the idea that God chooses some for perdition is absolutely rejected in traditional Christianity.


That's a fair comment, but I do think your Catholic sources are wrong. Reformation Christianity works on degrees of determinism, but not traditional (ie RCC and the Patriarchates) Christianity.

If you ever come across their sources, let me know. I'll try and dig something up doctrinally. The confusions rests, I believe, on the idea of God's omniscience and omnipotence.

God knows all before time, so God knows that Fred is heaven-bound, and Charlie for the other place. Therefore if God's will be done, then that's the way God wants it to be ...

But does God therefore determine beforehand that Fred goes up, and Charlie down? No. Fred is always free to ****-up, Charlie is always free to see the error of his ways. They say the angels weep when man sins, the angel delight when he returns to the fold ... but the angels do not interfere, because the Father does not interfere.

Confront your friends with the Parable of the Prodigal Son. How much does the father in that situation determine his son's choices? Other than giving him his freedom, none at all. He does not pursue the son, nor does he arrange for his son's reception in a foreign land ... when the son falls into the most unimaginably dire circumstances (how low can a good Jew fall — sleeping with pigs and presumably fighting with them for a share of the trough) the father does not step in to save him ... all the while the father acknowledges the son's desire to make his own decisions, even if those decisions are wrong.

The issue is freedom. Man is always 'free', and as I have argued, the only 'real' freedom, the ontological source of freedom, is to accept or refuse the will of God. The moment man loses that option, the option to sin, he loses his freedom, his dignity, and he ceases to be human in the fullest sense of the word.

God, on the other hand, continually tries to show man that outside the Good, there is only hunger. All lesser goods are by their very nature ephemeral, transient, chimeraic, illusory ... only in God is our hunger assuaged, whilst every other good leaves us wanting more, if not addicted ... but the glamour of these lesser goods has a magnetic appeal (as the Eden story tells us), and man continually opts for the latter.

God could make us obey Him at the drop of a proverbial hat — Jeez, he's done enough will pillars of fire, rumbling mountains, raising the dead, curing the sick, walking on water ... but that's not the way.

God wants us to want Him because we choose to, not because we have no other option. Nor does God want that some don't want him.

God is love ... that's the way love works.

Thomas


Hi Thomas,

Would you mind if I shared this post of yours with some off-line friends of mine?

Thnx,
luna
 
Thomas,

We have two issues here. The first issue is whether you think the burning of heretics was/is justified. Do you? Has the church ever said burning heretics was a 'bad idea'?

Regarding Catholic infallibility, according to your explanation, it seems that papal infallibility only 'occurs' when a encyclical letter is written and issued from the 'Office of Peter', as a 'pastoral work' that is addressed to the whole church. The second issue assumes that you (and the church) feel (today) that burning heretics is a 'bad idea.' Has a Pope ever issued such an 'infallible, whole-church-addressed-pastoral-work-encyclical-letter' on whether burning heretics is a good or bad idea? Was there ever an 'infallible encyclical' which authorized the burning of heretics?
 
Hi Nick —

As you've been both reasonable, and have read my post, I feel duty bound to respond in kind.

We have two issues here. The first issue is whether you think the burning of heretics was/is justified. Do you? Has the church ever said burning heretics was a 'bad idea'?
No, I don't think the burning of heretics was justified, however, I approach the question, as you do, with a 21st century sensibility. One cannot ask nor expect that of our forebears.

When a heretic was tried by the Church, and found guilty of heresy, they were then handed over to the secular authorities, who dealt with the offender according to their norms of practice. In those days, the norm was invariably the death penalty.

This in no way exonerates or excuses the Church — they knew what would happen — but the point I am making is that the secular authorities regarded heresy as a capital offence, and therefore acted accordingly. Therefore men of that age, secular and sacerdotal, saw this penalty as 'justified' under the law.

Neither, in fact, can they be found guilty under the law, as society recognises that the law should not be applied retroactively. The offence may be condemned for other reasons, as I do, but I cannot accuse anyone of breaking the law, if now law was broken, nor of acting unjustly, if society at large saw such actions as just.

In the future, I feel sure, we shall stand condemned by our children for the profligate waste of our natural resources ...

For this reason — whilst I in no way can condone or justify their actions theologically — I believe one cannot reasonably condemn them sociologically as murderers, because they acted within the law, as the law demanded.

Having said that, I regard the burning of heretics as a tragic stain upon the garment of the Church, ever a cause of sorrow. In that sense I pray for the soul of the executioner as well as the executed.

Regarding the Church as a whole — yes, She has issued public apologies for her previous actions:
Hence it is appropriate that, as the Second Millennium of Christianity draws to a close, the Church should become more fully conscious of the sinfulness of her children, recalling all those times in history when they departed from the spirit of Christ and his Gospel and, instead of offering to the world the witness of a life inspired by the values of faith, indulged in ways of thinking and acting which were truly forms of counter-witness and scandal.

Although she is holy because of her incorporation into Christ, the Church does not tire of doing penance: before God and man she always acknowledges as her own her sinful sons and daughters. As Lumen Gentium affirms: "The Church, embracing sinners to her bosom, is at the same time holy and always in need of being purified, and incessantly pursues the path of penance and renewal".
Apostolic Letter of Pope John Paul II Tertio Millennio Adveniente
2000

Prior to this was the document "Memory and Reconciliation — The Church and the faults of the Past"
The study was proposed by the then head of the International Theological Commission, Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

In both instances the Church acknowledges the errors of the past, condemns them, and asks forgiveness.

+++

Regarding Catholic infallibility, according to your explanation, it seems that papal infallibility only 'occurs' when a encyclical letter is written and issued from the 'Office of Peter', as a 'pastoral work' that is addressed to the whole church.
Not quite. Infallibility is evoked when, and only when, a definitive statement on matters of faith and morals is made by the Church. There is a hierarchy of documents, at the top being the Constitutions of the Ecumenical Councils. I'll have to dig some notes out to give you the tree.

An encyclical is a letter to the whole Church, but it might not contain any such definition or definitive statement, in which case it is authoritative, but not infallibly, declared.

The second issue assumes that you (and the church) feel (today) that burning heretics is a 'bad idea.'
You need assume nothing — I have stated this at least three times now, more than enough for everyone else's satisfaction. I'll not return to it agin, nor hold you in any respect if you choose to.

The Church's statement of the same is a matter of public record.

Has a Pope ever issued such an 'infallible, whole-church-addressed-pastoral-work-encyclical-letter' on whether burning heretics is a good or bad idea?
No, at least, not as far as I am aware (I am not infallible) but if asked, I would say not.

Was there ever an 'infallible encyclical' which authorized the burning of heretics?
Again no. I feel pretty sure that if there were, someone would be crowing about it ...

The following is from Exsurge Domine, the Bull of Pope Leo X issued June 15, 1520, condemning Martin Luther as a heretic:

As far as Martin himself is concerned, O good God, what have we overlooked or not done? What fatherly charity have we omitted that we might call him back from such errors? ...

Therefore we can, without any further citation or delay, proceed against him to his condemnation and damnation as one whose faith is notoriously suspect and in fact a true heretic with the full severity of each and all of the above penalties and censures. Yet, with the advice of our brothers, imitating the mercy of almighty God who does not wish the death of a sinner but rather that he be converted and live, and forgetting all the injuries inflicted on us and the Apostolic See, we have decided to use all the compassion we are capable of. It is our hope, so far as in us lies, that he will experience a change of heart by taking the road of mildness we have proposed, return, and turn away from his errors. We will receive him kindly as the prodigal son returning to the embrace of the Church.

Therefore let Martin himself and all those adhering to him, and those who shelter and support him, through the merciful heart of our God and the sprinkling of the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ by which and through whom the redemption of the human race and the upbuilding of holy mother Church was accomplished, know that from our heart we exhort and beseech that he cease to disturb the peace, unity, and truth of the Church for which the Savior prayed so earnestly to the Father. Let him abstain from his pernicious errors that he may come back to us. If they really will obey, and certify to us by legal documents that they have obeyed, they will find in us the affection of a father's love, the opening of the font of the effects of paternal charity, and opening of the font of mercy and clemency.

We enjoin, however, on Martin that in the meantime he cease from all preaching or the office of preacher.

Which sentiments, with no threats, no demands for retribution, puts many a political exhortation of today's world to shame.

Thomas
 
When a heretic was tried by the Church, and found guilty of heresy, they were then handed over to the secular authorities
You are forgetting that the Church WAS the secular authority, in many areas: most of central Italy, and large tracts of Germany ruled by "prince-bishops". The burning of heretics originated in church-ruled territories.
Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot
Was there ever an 'infallible encyclical' which authorized the burning of heretics?

Again no. I feel pretty sure that if there were, someone would be crowing about it ...
1252 (May 15)Ad exstirpanda ("For the elimination")Innocent IVAuthorizes the use of torture for eliciting confessions from heretics during the Inquisition and executing relapsed heretics by burning them alive. from a Wiki "List of papal bulls" (not the only one on the subject, but the clearest)
A "bull" could be any of a variety of document-types, but this one is an "encyclical" (that is, addressed to the whole community of the faithful, enjoining obedience by virtue of his apostolic authority, etc.)
 
Hi,
You have had a catholic upbringing, High School and Sunday School education, and have learned nothing.

Thomas
I'm not to sure you can blame this one on Nick the Pilot. After Vatican II, it seems that the RCC didn't know what to teach. (at least from my understanding.)
Joe
 
Hi Thomas,
Hi Joe —
The concept of infallibility was conscious and present in the Church from the Apostolic era (an example is detailed in Acts 10). The Church, in making dogmatic statements, acts to bring the truth into clearer perception and preserve from error (I think Vatican II in the 60s was the only Church Council not called to response to the need to clarify a dispute).
Thomas
So the concept of infallibility from acts 10, would that be what happened in Joppa or what happened in Caesarea?
The use of Luke 22:32 in the quotes that you used above insinuate that Christ prays for each pope like He did for Peter? I also get the feel that in the quotes there is an insinuation that since Christ is/ was perfect, that Peter was made perfect, and by the claim of lineage to Peter by the RCC, that popes some how also have this perfection.
Joe
 
Joe,

Thomas and you had the exchange,

"You [Nick] have had a catholic upbringing, High School and Sunday School education, and have learned nothing. --> Thomas, I'm not to sure you can blame this one on Nick the Pilot. After Vatican II, it seems that the RCC didn't know what to teach. (at least from my understanding.)"

--> Actually, Thomas is wrong. I did not learn a sum total of nothing from my Catholic schooling, I did learn one thing. The Bible tells us that the human race was created twice (which the Bible does indeed say.) This was taught to me by a Catholic priest in a high school religion class in a Catholic high school! It seems that Thomas has been sabotaged by one of his one kind.
 
Thomas,

You said,

"One cannot ask nor expect that of our forebears."

--> That is total rubbish.

"I believe one cannot reasonably condemn them sociologically as murderers, because they acted within the law, as the law demanded."

--> Legal murder is still murder. I am shocked that you do not see it as murder. And I see that you are still avoiding the issue that these people were murdered for their religious beliefs -- you are ever the artful dodger.

"Having said that, I regard the burning of heretics as a tragic stain upon the garment of the Church, ever a cause of sorrow. In that sense I pray for the soul of the executioner as well as the executed."

--> I am glad to see that you feel that way. To be honest, I did not knew if you felt that way, and I am glad to see you feel this way.

"Regarding the Church as a whole — yes, She has issued public apologies for her previous actions.... In both instances the Church acknowledges the errors of the past, condemns them, and asks forgiveness."

--> I am glad to see that the church has apologized for its actions. This, of course, does not remove one dot of anyone's bad karma. Karma never forgets.

"Infallibility is evoked when, and only when, a definitive statement on matters of faith and morals is made by the Church."

--> This brings us to the obvious question. Why didn't that Pope (Popes?) use 'infallibilty abilities' to issue such a statement that would have stopped the convictions and executions? As I understand you, when the Pope issues such statements, people can argue about them but they must accept them. They were burning people to death, for goodness sakes. Why didn't the Pope stop it, especially since he had 'infallibility' at his fingertips? You mean, he could have stopped murder performed in the name of Jesus with just a few sentences written on a piece of paper, and he chose not to? We are talking about the Pope, you know! I'm sorry, but I cannot believe such a thing, and I think there are other people out there who feel the same way as I do. No, the only conclusion we can reach is that the Pope himself fully approved of such butchery -- the same Pope who 'had infallibility at his fingertips.'

"...the Church acknowledges the errors of the past, condemns them, and asks forgiveness."

--> The church condemns its own Pope? Really?
 
Satan’s attempts to suppress the Bible failed.

In more recent years, excellent translations of the Bible have been made in many languages, and the "good news" has become available to all mankind.


Bibles are to be found in many homes.


But have the religious sects of Christendom helped the people to understand the Bible?


No,

for they stand today in the same position as the religious leaders of Jesus’ time. They shove the word of God aside "in order to retain [their] tradition," the false teachings from Babylon that were adopted when Constantine founded "Christendom."—Mark 7:9, 13.
 
we might reflect on one simple question:


Would Christ Jesus have used torture on those who differed with him on his teachings?


Jesus said: "Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you."—Luke 6:27.


by their fruits it all becomes clear
 
Back
Top