Burned at the stake for the Bible

Thomas,

You said,

"In that sense I pray for the soul of the executioner as well as the executed."

--> Fortunately, my belief system tells me that everyone involved has already reincarnated several times since those days. It is easy to assume that the good and bad karma that everyone created in those days has already been balanced out. Your Pope undoubtedly went to Hell for what he did, but he was not in Hell forever (Hell is always temporary), so we can all feel relieved at his fate. Perhaps you do not need to pray for those people any more.
 
You are forgetting that the Church WAS the secular authority
No, if you consider my post, that issue is dealt with.

In the time of Henry VIII, there were 20 instances in Law that called for the death penalty. By the eighteenth (therefore under State rule and the Protestant religion), there were over 200, and the English Legal System was known as 'the Bloody Code' ...

In the US, a non-Catholic country, the death penalty still stands, so whilst there is a tendency to bring up the past to make accusations, perhaps a look closer to home might be more appropriate?

I'm not anti-Americaning, I'm making a point that to assume the Church is some villain, without whom everything would be lovely, is nonsense.

In the last hundred years or so, more people have been killed by secular courts than religious ones ... Russia, China, Cambodia ...

+++

A "bull" could be any of a variety of document-types
No, a bull is a bull — 'bull' defines it as a type.

In the 3rd century Tertullian, trained in jurisprudence, followed a 'radically pacifist tendency' among Christians at that time who tended to take the Gospel's counsels of perfection as universally binding precepts. Certainly, in Tertullian’s judgment, any complicity in torture – either ordering it or personally applying it – is definitely ruled out for a disciple of Jesus.

Soon after Constantine's emancipation of Christianity, and under its influence, begins a long and slow process of the gradual reduction and elimination of certain brutal practices sanctioned by pagan Roman law. "During the years 315-321 he issued laws prohibiting the torture and killing of slaves by their masters ... the safeguarding of children from major physical abuse by their parents; and protecting convict prisoners from cruel treatment, including abolition of the practice of branding them on the face, 'which is formed in the image of heavenly beauty'."

On the news today I heard the figures of 1 in 10 children in the 'civilised' West suffer some form of abuse within the home.

How do we regard the suspension of law and human right at Guantanamo Bay? Shipping prisoners to brutal and corrupt regimes to allow freedom of interrogation ... from this perspective, enlightened secularism has gone backwards.

You're in no position to be throwing accusations around as if you are beyond reproach ... or put your own house in order before you start throwing criticism at mine.

+++

But your post says nothing new, nor contradicts anything I've said. We made mistakes, we have admitted our errors, we have said we are sorry, and we have asked forgiveness ... what more can we do ... what more do you want?

Thomas
 
I'm not to sure you can blame this one on Nick the Pilot. After Vatican II, it seems that the RCC didn't know what to teach. (at least from my understanding.)
If you libve in the US, you're right.

The liberal element really got a grip there, and did a huge amount of damage. The child abuse cases have been traced directly to this liberalising tendency, and the details recorded in a number of books published on the affair.

Seminarians who professed a belief in god were dissuaded, whilst an air of healthy scepticism was encouraged. I recall even the film "The Exorcist" makes reference to this, in a joke between two Jesuits, "You mean you believe in God?"

Thomas
 
We made mistakes, we have admitted our errors, we have said we are sorry, and we have asked forgiveness ... what more can we do ... what more do you want?

Thomas

Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings. matthew 24;45-47




faithfulness leads to greater blessings from JESUS but unfaithfullness leads to no enlightenment at all.


when Jesus came with kingdom power to inspect his followers he could have picked any of the so called christians out there, but he choose the faithful ones who were doing his will.


faithfulness leads to great blessings

 
No, if you consider my post, that issue is dealt with.

In the time of Henry VIII, there were 20 instances in Law that called for the death penalty. By the eighteenth (therefore under State rule and the Protestant religion), there were over 200, and the English Legal System was known as 'the Bloody Code' ...

In the US, a non-Catholic country, the death penalty still stands, so whilst there is a tendency to bring up the past to make accusations, perhaps a look closer to home might be more appropriate?

I'm not anti-Americaning, I'm making a point that to assume the Church is some villain, without whom everything would be lovely, is nonsense.

In the last hundred years or so, more people have been killed by secular courts than religious ones ... Russia, China, Cambodia ...

Thomas

Here Here! (with a thigh slap) :)
 
Hi Joe —

Hi Thomas,
So the concept of infallibility from acts 10...
Actually, I might be pushing it a bit there. It does set up the basis for the discussion of authority, but I'm not sure infallibility?

insinuate that Christ prays for each pope like He did for Peter?
Yes He does ... as He does for us all.

I also get the feel that in the quotes there is an insinuation that since Christ is/ was perfect, that Peter was made perfect, and by the claim of lineage to Peter by the RCC, that popes some how also have this perfection.
No, I don't think we would claim that ... man is man, and by nature fallible. But the Church is in Her essence and nature perfect ... but it is the assistance of the Holy Spirit that confers infallibility.

Taking Matthew 16:19 "And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." This does not express infallibility, but it does explicitly give Her authority, by Divine fiat, that what the Church decides, then Heaven will endorse ... and also it allows for Her to 'change her mind' as it were, about peripheral matters, of time, place and accidence ...

It used to be that non-Christians, and even catechumens, were forbidden to witness the Liturgy of the Eucharist ... now anyone can walk in off the street. In a couple of weeks my church will be packed at midnight, by people who will be sniggering, laughing, reeking of alcohol, and who have no intention of stepping inside a church at any other time of the year ... and they will be welcomed.

If we went back to the old ways, with the expulsion of the catachumen, the disciplina arcana, and dressed it up in as a pseudo-Hermetic theatre of initiation, they'd be queuing at the doors ...

Thomas
 
The Bible tells us that the human race was created twice (which the Bible does indeed say.) This was taught to me by a Catholic priest in a high school religion class in a Catholic high school! It seems that Thomas has been sabotaged by one of his one kind.
ROFL! Ah dear! If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny! How anyone can derive the creation of a single species twice, from Scripture, I have no idea ... but then the world is full of surprises.

Perhaps, like the naming of New York, God was so impressed by His handiwork, He did it twice! Really, it's a nonsensical notion.

Talking of nonsensical notions ... who would not have thought a fiction the amazingly remarkable fact that the one thing you remember being taught by a Catholic, is the one thing you bang on about in discussing the Theosophical interpretation of Scripture!

What an incredible coincidence ... if I didn't know you better, I'd say you're pulling my leg. Perhaps the priest was a closet theosophist? Worse things have happened.

You've certainly never mentioned to me before, in our many discussions, that you were taught this by a Catholic priest! I'd have thought you'd have used that to make as much mischief as you could, long before now!

Did it ever occur to you to cross-check such a fantastic assertion with another Catholic? I suppose not. Take it from me ... he was wrong. No other Catholic says any such thing.

Perhaps the real tragedy lies in the fact that had you met a better exegete, you might have been preserved from error ... now that error seems to have set in stone in your mind, and the error can never be rectified.

But have I been sabotaged? Not at all — what a strange way of viewing things you have. How you assume error undermines truth, I don't know. Was that something else you were taught?

Error undermines people. The truth is inviolate.

Thomas
 
Thomas, You said,
"One cannot ask nor expect that of our forebears."
--> That is total rubbish.

Really? So you believe it's perfectly reasonable and logical to ask a 2nd century blacksmith to explain Quantum Theory then.

Legal murder is still murder.
Take that up with a lawyer, he'll explain it for you better than I can.

And I see that you are still avoiding the issue that these people were murdered for their religious beliefs -- you are ever the artful dodger.
Oh crap ... we're back to black propaganda and mischief again.

I am glad to see that the church has apologized for its actions. This, of course, does not remove one dot of anyone's bad karma. Karma never forgets.
As a Theosophist, I'd have thought your own society's bad karma would be an issue of greater import. So young, and yet you've made such a start! Were you to be around as long as us, in our day, Lord knows what debt you would have accrued by now!

See? mischief swings both ways ... or people in glass houses, as the saying goes ...

This brings us to the obvious question. Why didn't that Pope (Popes?) use 'infallibilty abilities' to issue such a statement that would have stopped the convictions and executions?
I've explained that already, if you read my post. If you don't understand, take it up with a sociologist ... he'll explain why people act in accordance with perceived social norms better than I can.

[/I]The church condemns its own Pope? Really?
Yes, really. I can understand why you might find that difficult to believe, as in my experiences Theosophists defend every heinous action undertaken in their name ... but we don't.

Thomas
 
ROFL! Ah dear! If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny! How anyone can derive the creation of a single species twice, from Scripture, I have no idea ... but then the world is full of surprises.

Perhaps, like the naming of New York, God was so impressed by His handiwork, He did it twice! Really, it's a nonsensical notion.

Talking of nonsensical notions ...
Namaste Thomas,

And here lies the problem. The teachings of many a preacher and priest that we have receieved in the US is exactly what Nick portrays. The Seven days as fact, seven actual days. Teaching the bible as historical, scientific, archeological fact. Not to be disputed or questioned.

Why folks leave Catholicism and the church in droves is not a mystery. Why many stay is simply because of societal norms or functions. (the camraderie, we are all suffering in this together camraderie or the tradition and party, this is the way we were raised and we don't believe it anymore but we are comfortable and you are here and so are others of our friends so we put up with the rest for that camraderie)
 
Hi Wil —

And here lies the problem. The teachings of many a preacher and priest that we have receieved in the US is exactly what Nick portrays. The Seven days as fact, seven actual days. Teaching the bible as historical, scientific, archeological fact. Not to be disputed or questioned.
Well I can only speak for Catholics, although I agree I find Christian fundamentalism in the US frankly baffling, as indeed I find many of your home-spun denominations.

As this seems particular to the US, I think the fault lies with 'Americanism' rather than 'Catholicism'. Certainly, here and in Europe, we have been shocked by what so-called 'Catholics' have done in our name.

The Creation v Evolution debate, for example, is a complete sideshow and a farce, that leaves us shaking our heads.

When Prof. Dawkins wanted to show just how stupid religion is ... he went to the US, and engaged evangelical Christians in an exercise which critics here likened to shooting fish in a barrel — as one pointed out, Dawkins has notably failed to engage a heavyweight Catholic moral theologian, for example, rather choosing the east targets that are so abundantly available, and noisy, in the US.

As an aside:
My daughter's boyfriend, a Canadian, was over to visit this year, he's just gone back. The report I got back was when I started making points about evolution to someone else (to head-off an anti-meat eating tirade by a vegetarian relative) ... he had to double check ... "You dad's Catholic, right? How come he believes in evolution?"

Hopefully, one day the Continental US will catch up with Continental Europe.

Why folks leave Catholicism and the church in droves is not a mystery.
I can understand that. The damage of 'fundamental liberalism' of the 60s hit American Catholicism harder than anywhere else ... and is still active. The Pope had to call the US bishops to order over the astronomical number of marriage annulments dished out in the US. It's a situation we're still trying to rectify, and a mess we're still uncovering — of course the US is resistant to any outside interference. The simple point is that the US will not be told.

My suspicion is that the 2bn$ spent by the Catholic Church in the US to pay off cases of abuse was earmarked for a Basilica, and one to rival Rome. I fully expected US Catholicism to go into schism and declare itself an autonomous patriarchate or something ... I pray God not ... if it does, we shall be forced to watch you backslide into a medieval religiousity. And a country so inclined, with access to nuclear weapons, frightens the daylights out of me.

You need to discern the root of the problem and I rather think it's with American self-image, rather than the Catholic Church.

Thomas
 
Regarding the execution of heretics:

Yes, we burned people at the stake for heresy.

No, it was not a justifiable action.

Yes, those engaged will have to answer for their sins.

No, I do not endorse execution under any circumstance.

Yes, we admit our guilt and our error, and ask forgiveness.

No, we promise never to do it again.

Yes, those who carried out such acts assumed they were doing the right thing.

No, they were not.

Yes, the law endorsed such harsh treatment of the accused.

No, it doesn't any more.

Yes, I know that admissions do not completely ease the pain of the afflicted.

No, I don't know what more we can do.

Yes, I do happen to think we should forgive, and move on.

No, I don't think forgive and forget, lest we fall into the same error again.

Yes, history has the habit of repeating itself.

No, never the same way twice.

Yes, people are still being killed today for their faith.

No, this time its mostly Catholics.

+++

Thomas
 
Regarding infallibility:

Yes, we believe the Church is indefectible.

No, we do not believe anyone is infallible.

Yes, we believe man can possess infallible truth.

No, he cannot make it up as he goes along.

Yes, it is the Holy Spirit who guarantees infallibility.

No, it not an alarm bell that goes off when the wrong decision is made.

Yes, infallible statements are considered under the particular heading of ex cathedra statements and meet certain necessary conditions.

No, not everything a pope says is an infallible statement.

Yes, the Orthodox Patriarchates do acknowledge the infallibility of the Doctrinal Proclamations of the Ecumenical Councils prior to the Great Schism.

No, they don't acknowledge the infallibility of later Roman Councils.

Yes, the Pope on his own authority can declare an infallible doctrine.

No, he never has done against the will of the Bishops.

Yes, the Bishops can declare a statement of a Pope invalid.

No, they've never had to declare an infallible statement invalid.

Yes, there is a work-round if one was needed.

No, I don't find it unreasonable or illogical, quite the reverse.

Yes, it only makes sense if you believe in the God of Scripture.

No, it doesn't if you don't.

Yes, popes have been found to be in error.

No, they weren't allowed to get away with it.

Yes, the declaration of Infallibility at Vatican 1 upset a lot of Catholics.

No, that's no reason not to declare what has always been held true.

Yes, there are other doctrines besides infallibility that have less of a Scriptural foundation.

No, they are not as problematic as that one for the faithful.

Yes, only Catholics are bound by infallibly-declared doctrine.

No, I don't understand why non-Catholics make such a song and dance about it.

Yes, there are plent of people who want to 'prove' infallibility is a fix.

No, they've never succeeded.

Yes, you're welcome to have a go.

No, I'll not argue every case, I've more important things to do.

Thomas
 
Hey Nick —

On Scripture and the creation of man, the Russian Orthodox Church says this:
We note that in the Book of Genesis, as in scientific evolutionary theories, Evolution proceeds from the lower to the higher, from plants to animals to men. Man is the crown of creation because he is made 'in our image, after our likeness' (Gen. 1:26), that is man resembles God the Holy Trinity. He is different from all else because God breathes life into him, that is, He endows him with 'a living soul' (Gen. 2:7). As regards the creation of the human body, this is made from 'the dust of the ground' (Gen. 2:7). We now understand this to mean the various chemical elements, hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, calcium, iron, magnesium, sodium, phosphorus etc, which make up the human body's chemical composition and which are also found in the earth.
So the fundamental error you assume in reading two creations of the same thing (surely there would be dopplegangers of everyone bumping into each other) is failing to discern the distinction between essence and substance ...

Another way of reading it is Genesis 1:26-27 deals with universal human nature, which the Fathers term ousai, whilst Genesis 2:7 deals with the particular instance of that nature in the person, which the Fathers term hypostasis...

I get the feeling I'm wasting my time ... but when Pope John XXIII visited Communist Russia, he took a lot of flak from some quarters: "Whenever I come up against a wall of ignorance," he said, "I always try and loosen one little brick, one little bit ... "

... and if the Berlin Wall can come down, who knows what can happen!

Thomas
 
When Prof. Dawkins wanted to show just how stupid religion is ... he went to the US, and engaged evangelical Christians in an exercise which critics here likened to shooting fish in a barrel

Thomas, yes Bible-fundamentalists can be easy targets. But these observations are potentially diversions from a larger problem of fundamentalism. If I may....

The term "fundamental" has negative connotations of being anachronistic, resistant to change, and authoritarian. One would understandably see some value in presenting one's religion in such a way as to avoid the impression of being "fundamentalist." PR imagery aside, almost any formal religion is prone to dogma, legalism, and ecclesiastic elitism. Regarding Romanistic Christianity as advanced by Paul and the modern-day Catholic Church, some would suggest they meet criteria for being "cultic" in the sense that they involved and depended upon substantial efforts towards establishing and maintaining ideological purity and towards having an operational monopoly on essential doctrine. Arguably, the Church can be described as a fundamentalist cult.

In particular, it is not uncommon to see the Church criticized for being a vehicle of a special kind of fundamentalism that emphasizes church doctrine vis a vis the Gospel. There are many historical examples of this (e.g., the Church's handling of schisms, large scale crusades against alleged heretics, Holy Inquisition, the introduction of totally new doctrine and texts that have no obvious referents in the Scripture, assertions of authority, hierarchy, and jurisdiction, and various political/ institutional/administrative developments).

As far as approach and style, the Catholic Church may actually be more fundamentalist in nature than Bible-fundamentalists. In more recent history, the rise of His Eminence Cardinal Ratzinger to the position of Pope would seem to indicate that fundamentalism is indeed alive and well in the Catholic Church. He can be seen as a personification of the Church's efforts to preserve a fundamentalist view of its own position as earthly authority on "Doctrine of the Faith." The strength of the ideological commitment is evident from the breadth of policy. For example, Ratzinger endorsed denying the sacrament of communion to persons who do not align with Church doctrine. To use the Pontifical Council's language, the Church presumes to define the conditions under which "the minister of Holy Communion must refuse" a person the sacrament.

This brand of authoritarian fundamentalism will predictably raise PR concerns about the religious organization being hardline and unreasonable. Predictably enough, the lead spokesman - the Pope himself - will downplay the imagery by saying things like "I'm not the Grand Inquisitor." Yet the Pope made his reputation as enforcer of the Vatican's ideological positions. "He made the biggest headlines when his congregation silenced or excommunicated theologians, withdrew church approval of certain books, helped rewrite liturgical translations, set boundaries on ecumenical dialogues..."
CNS STORY: German theologian one of most respected, controversial cardinals

I was baptised a Roman Catholic. I'm not particularly interested in criticizing the church. I'm merely calling attention to the need to expand the idea of fundamentalism to include the cultic and organizational aspects of institutional religion and the insistence on mandatory doctrine.
 
Hi Netti-Netti —

But these observations are potentially diversions from a larger problem of fundamentalism. If I may....
Of course ... although I would say that I regard most of what you post as subjective opinion, and inaccurate.

The term "fundamental" has negative connotations of being anachronistic, resistant to change, and authoritarian.
Perhaps, but then I think that's a misuse of the term. I would say conservative. Fundamentalism to me means, as I posted from a Russian Orthodox site elsewhere, a lack of spiritual, ascetic, allegorical and/or poetic insight, but rather an overt emphasis on the literal.

As the Catholic Church has been a source of some of the world's most profound spiritual literature, produced saints and mystics of the first water, as well as a source and patron of the arts in the West for centuries, it cannot really be accused of fundamentalism, although I fully accept the idea of conservatism ... indeed, I would probably defend it, against those who seek change to keep pace with the whims of culture, which swings back and forth between this fad and that fancy, ever seeking novelty and the ephemeral.

almost any formal religion is prone to dogma, legalism, and ecclesiastic elitism.
Human nature ...

Regarding Romanistic Christianity as advanced by Paul and the modern-day Catholic Church,
well hang on ... you can't say 'Romanistic' and 'Paul' in the same breath without a massive anachronism. Paul was there before the Gospels ... the Roman Church was not there for at least some 800 odd years later.

some would suggest they meet criteria for being "cultic" in the sense that they involved and depended upon substantial efforts toward establishing and maintaining ideological purity as well as a monopoly on essential doctrine. Arguably, the Church can be described as a fundamentalist cult.
Somewhat naive and simplistic, however.

In particular, it is not uncommon to see the Church criticized for being a vehicle of a special kind of fundamentalism that emphasizes church doctrine vis a vis the Gospel.
An erroneous criticism, however.

There are many historical examples of this (e.g., the Church's handling of schisms, large scale crusades against alleged heretics,
But that was then ... this is now. You do not refuse to go to hospital because of the way medicine was practised in the 15th century. How the Message and Mission is being handled now is the 'live' issue ... the rest is the debate of historians. Critics who continually drag up the past, do so, it seems to me, because they cannot offer any sustainable contemporary and meaningful criticism.

Holy Inquisition,
Actually, seen in its overall context, and not just its Spanish aberration, the Office of the Inquisition saved many, many more than it condemned. Prior to that, any mayor or magistrate could execute someone on theological grounds, and they did, in vast numbers. The Office was introduced to check this practice ... and huge numbers elected trial by the Inquisition rather than the secular authorities ... and huge numbers were acquitted. There really is an awful lot of nonsense touted around about the Inquisition.

the introduction of totally new doctrine and texts that have no obvious referents in the Scripture,
Not in the Catholic Church there's not ... just that old literalism again, and lack of spiritual discernment.

assertions of authority, hierarchy, and jurisdiction, and various political/ institutional/administrative developments).
Quite acceptable. Would you rather chaos? Anarchy? The survival of the fittest, the strongest man rules?

As far as approach and style, the Catholic Church may actually be more fundamentalist in nature than Bible-fundamentalists.
Demonstrable nonsense. what you mean is, we accept the notion of authority and hierarchy, whereas some do not ... but then they don't have to care for or administer for others.

In more recent history, the rise of His Eminence Cardinal Ratzinger to the position of Pope would seem to indicate that fundamentalism is indeed alive and well in the Catholic Church.
Again, a subjective determination that few would agree with. Have you read his encyclicals? or are you just following the media line?

He can be seen as a personification of the Church's efforts to preserve a fundamentalist view of its own position as earthly authority on "Doctrine of the Faith."
The Church throughout its history has never seen itself as other than that. That's what Scripture says it is.

PS — You do know it was Cardinal Ratzinger who was responsible for the Document from the Church in which we 'fessed up for all the wrong we've done, and asked forgiveness ... not a very fundamental thing to do, is it?

The same guy who's just launched a Catholic/Moslem dialogue ... anyway ...

The ideological commitment is evident from the breadth of policy. For example, Ratzinger endorsed denying the sacrament of communion to persons who do not align with Church doctrine.
Nothing new there. It's called putting your house in order ... something long overdue in some quarters.

And yet the priest has the right to distribute the sacrament to those outside the Church, as I have witnessed first hand. What Benedict speaks out against is hypocrisy.

I have seen people come into my Church at Midnight Mass and receive communion, in the full knowledge they don't believe a word of what they've just listened to. I have seen them leave the altar and palm the Eucharist, grinning from ear to ear.

Shall I come into their homes and ridicule all that they hold dear? I practice forgiveness and patience and humility, but I am also told not to cast pearls before swine, nor feed what is holy to dogs ...

To use the Pontifical Council's language, the Church presumes to define the conditions under which "the minister of Holy Communion must refuse" a person the sacrament.
Of course it does ... or do you suggest it's left to the whim of the individual? Remember that the Sacrament of the Eucharist belongs to the Church, and She authorises Her ministers ... so it is entirely fitting that they should be instructed accordingly.

This brand of authoritarian fundamentalism will predictably raise PR concerns about the religious organization being hardline and unreasonable.
In a culture of egoism and philosophical relativism, of course it will, but that is a cultural trend, and like all trends, it shall pass.

Yet the Pope made his reputation as enforcer of the Vatican's ideological positions. "He made the biggest headlines when his congregation silenced or excommunicated theologians, withdrew church approval of certain books, helped rewrite liturgical translations, set boundaries on ecumenical dialogues..."
Yes ... and did he make headlines when he invited one of those excommunicated theologians to lunch, to discuss matters in a cordial and friendly way? Of course not ... that kind of image wouldn't suit the media and her critics at all, would it?

Remember how sure the media was that a Nazi had ascended the throne of Peter when he was elected, because a 12 year old boy was drafted into the Army? How they held their breath as they waited for the new holocaust? Then ... nothing ... and a sea of red faces, with nothing to say ...

Meanwhile Gunter Grass went public that he volunteered for the SS becuase they got the best of everything, including the girls ... was he stripped of his Nobel Prize? Err ... no ...

I was baptised a Roman Catholic. I'm not particularly interested in criticizing the church.
Don't see much balance coming forward though, either.

I'm merely calling attention to the need to expand the idea of fundamentalism to include the cultic and organizational aspects of institutional religion.
I think you are particularly interested in seeing the Church conform to your image of it ... sadly, it won't do that, I'm afraid ... She has another image in mind, an eternal one.

The truth is, if either Church or Papacy had followed cultural advice, both institutions would have vanished centuries ago, as have all those institutions which informed us we should be like them ... so you will excuse us if we stick to what we have always believed.

Thomas
 
We made mistakes, we have admitted our errors, we have said we are sorry, and we have asked forgiveness ... what more can we do ... what more do you want?
For you to admit that you are not infallible. You cannot possibly square your claim to infallibility with "admitting errors": it was not by accident that your Church initiated a deliberate policy of burning people alive for disagreeing with you, and proclaimed it in documents marked by all the "magic words" which are supposedly the hallmarks of an "infallible" pronouncement.
 
Thomas,

Thank you for a fascinating discussion on burnings and infallibility. I agree with Bob that the infallibility discussion is not over. But I would like to put these two topics aside for the moment, and return to the original topic of this thread, which has gotten lost in all of this.

It is true that English-speaking people were forbidden to read or possess a Bible written in English?

You were quoted,

"ROFL! Ah dear! If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny! How anyone can derive the creation of a single species twice, from Scripture, I have no idea ... but then the world is full of surprises."

--> If you were actually interested in hearing the answer, instead of mocking me as you are obviously now doing, I would consider answering your question. Oh, yes, please remember that the 'idiot' who first taught me the point in question was an open-minded Catholic priest. (Whether he 'derived' it himself, or got it from another 'idiot' Catholic priest remains to be seen.)
 
Hi Nick the Pilot,
Thomas,
It is true that English-speaking people were forbidden to read or possess a Bible written in English?
Yes it's true. In my family, the generation before me, were not allowed to read the Bible.
Joe
 
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