It sounds like I should defer to your greater wisdom DrumR. I've had a look around on Google Scholar and drew a blank, but that'll be my researching skills!
s.
How connected is Tao with Buddhism and Confucianism?
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It sounds like I should defer to your greater wisdom DrumR. I've had a look around on Google Scholar and drew a blank, but that'll be my researching skills!
s.
DrumR
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the favor of a reply, Snoopy.
You are, in all actuality, a biologist engaged deeply into a research project pertaining to the wide spectrum of aberrations of human sexuality specifically of those youth while during their course of tenure at, one or more, institutions of higher learning. I knew I should never have doubted you, Your Eminence.
Returning to the original thread of
How connected is Tea in Buddhism and ...
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapsang_suchong
Please note that within the article it says "As the story goes".
An therein lies a portion of the problem; for stories about Lapsang abound increasing the mythos of this mystic and mystical tea of mystical origins from the mist of timeless mystery in the mythological past where myth and reality merge and miss the point.
One such "myth" is similar to the wiki article in that with an attempt to meet the high demand for tea, one lot was hurriedly dried and had come out smoked. In a quandary as to what to do, and not looking to lose their reputation locally, they had shipped this spoiled lot of tea to the foreign devils, the Dutch. After all what did they know about quality teas?
The Dutch, however, replied that "this is great stuff Maynard" and "could they please send some more", or words to that effect, and thus an horrible accident in tea processing became a high demand item for international trade(those foreign devils will drink anything). The story advances further, from other sources embellishing the myth, that the early European teas were more akin to blends based on this newly discovered beverage.
Yet it may be seen that the Buddha was denied the opportunity to experience Lapsang suchong, at least during that incarnation, unless it was perhaps the aroma of Lapsang that awoke him due to some accident of some tea leaves being partially burnt or smoked while the taoist tea merchant was building his fire while encamped across the road from the Bodhi tree where the Sid was in the process of medicating, and therefore highly suseptable to suggestion..., er- um, meditating. I meant to say meditating.
Greater Wisdom? Me? Is this an insult or are you trying to lure the newbies into a cruel and heartless trap of endless perplexity?
Goggling the young scholars again are we?
Wouldn't this be considered as in-appropriate touching?
Oh. Now I understand!
You are, in all actuality, a biologist engaged deeply into a research project pertaining to the wide spectrum of aberrations of human sexuality specifically of those youth while during their course of tenure at, one or more, institutions of higher learning.
I knew I should never have doubted you, Your Eminence.Returning to the original thread of
How connected is Tea in Buddhism and ...
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapsang_suchong
Please note that within the article it says "As the story goes".
An therein lies a portion of the problem; for stories about Lapsang abound increasing the mythos of this mystic and mystical tea of mystical origins from the mist of timeless mystery in the mythological past where myth and reality merge and miss the point.
One such "myth" is similar to the wiki article in that with an attempt to meet the high demand for tea, one lot was hurriedly dried and had come out smoked. In a quandary as to what to do, and not looking to lose their reputation locally, they had shipped this spoiled lot of tea to the foreign devils, the Dutch. After all what did they know about quality teas?
The Dutch, however, replied that "this is great stuff Maynard" and "could they please send some more", or words to that effect, and thus an horrible accident in tea processing became a high demand item for international trade(those foreign devils will drink anything). The story advances further, from other sources embellishing the myth, that the early European teas were more akin to blends based on this newly discovered beverage.
Yet it may be seen that the Buddha was denied the opportunity to experience Lapsang suchong, at least during that incarnation, unless it was perhaps the aroma of Lapsang that awoke him due to some accident of some tea leaves being partially burnt or smoked while the taoist tea merchant was building his fire while encamped across the road from the Bodhi tree where the Sid was in the process of medicating, and therefore highly suseptable to suggestion..., er- um, meditating. I meant to say meditating.
Never heard of wisdom being an insult before! And my luring days are long over.
Are you drinking or smoking???!!!Oh. Now I understand!
You are, in all actuality, a biologist engaged deeply into a research project pertaining to the wide spectrum of aberrations of human sexuality specifically of those youth while during their course of tenure at, one or more, institutions of higher learning.
Oh good...back on topic then
I'm always partial to throwing alleged facts over the side to achieve more buoyancy in my posts. Let's drop this religion stuff and stick to the teaPlease note that within the article it says "As the story goes".
An therein lies a portion of the problem; for stories about Lapsang abound increasing the mythos of this mystic and mystical tea of mystical origins from the mist of timeless mystery in the mythological past where myth and reality merge and miss the point.
s.
DrumR
Well-Known Member
Re: wisdom as an insult - You are a wise ar...
Have you then regressed to catching the elusive trout with a worm?And my luring days are long over.
Tea or ham???
I'm always partial to throwing alleged facts over the side to achieve more buoyancy in my posts. Let's drop this religion stuff and stick to the tea
s.
If we toss all facts overboard, perhaps we will have room for more tea
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
If we toss all facts overboard, perhaps we will have room for more tea
When all is thrown away
DrumR
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the favor of a reply, SeattleGal.
It is indeed appropriate to note the similarities between Tea and Zen .
From from the Chinese philoso-tea classic, the Tea du Jour (lately mispelled as Dao De Jing ) we find a chapter that leads off with "Abandon Knowledge."
And others not as well versed in the intracacies of the classics thought we were off topic!
It is indeed appropriate to note the similarities between Tea and Zen .
From from the Chinese philoso-tea classic, the Tea du Jour (lately mispelled as Dao De Jing
) we find a chapter that leads off with "Abandon Knowledge."And others not as well versed in the intracacies of the classics thought we were off topic!
Netti-Netti
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What if Confucius rewrote the document itself - rather than just add some appendices?
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
The I Ching is basically a workbook for consulting a divination oracle. Confucious didn't have much use for divination, so why would rewrite the interpretation of the oracle? (Would his doing so violate his ideal of virtue?
)However, there are charges by Daoists today of Neo-Confucianists altering the old Daoist documents....such as Zhu Xi with the Explanation of the Diagram of the Supreme Ultimate
http://eng.taoism.org.hk/daoist-beliefs/yin-yang-supreme-ultimate/pg2-3-2-2.htm
Zhou Dunyi's text is very short, but is an excellent synopsis. The first sentence of his explanation goes <<from the Infinite to the Supreme Ultimate>>, meaning that the Supreme Ultimate is born out of the Infinite. However, the famous Neo-Confucian philosopher of the Southern Song, Zhu Xi, removed the character 'Zi' ('from') from the original Chinese text in his commentary to the Illustrated Explanation to the Supreme Ultimate, changing the first sentence's meaning into <<the Infinite is the Supreme Ultimate>> , in order to argue that it has no higher source. This does not conform to Chen Bo's original meaning as passed down in the Diagram of the Supreme Ultimate, and obliterates its original Daoist meaning. In addition, Zhu Xi modified the original Diagram. Below is the original text of Zhou Dunyi:
Netti-Netti
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There seems to be some disagreement on what it is, and it is possible that the term "divination" does not apply to the I Ching's intended purpose:
In behavior, ontogyny recapitulates phylogeny; in mind, synchrony recapitulates diachrony. The first assertion establishes the relationship between individual behavior and the inherited gene pool of the species; it gives the biological component to psychology. The second assertion --that synchrony recapitulates diachrony --establishes the relationship between personal experience and the socio-cultural environment; it gives the experiential component of psychology.
Now we ask: Is this experiential component as real and amenable to scientific investigation as the biological component? We propose an affirmative solution though it will require a suitable methodology, suitable for the investigation of phenomena that are non-temporal, viz., synchronous. The hexagrammatic approach is the original methodology of synchronic synthesis devised by the first civilizations to invent literacy, i.e., the community practice of publishing knowledge and indexing text. This led to books, manuals, archives, official records (see Section [5. 2. 3] in Chapter 5). This method survives today in the form of the treatise called the "I Ching" and attributed to Confucius and earlier scholars of the Chinese Dynasties (circa 1100 B.C.). The I Ching is a unified theory of social settings and presents an exhaustive system of 64 situational hexagrams corresponding to the modalities of conduct on the daily round.
Ethnosemantic methodology (ESM, for short) requires a special register just as statistics and experimental methodology involve specialized registers, i.e., vocabulary, syntax, mathematical operations abstract conceptions, formalized argument procedures, explicitness, routine replicability, and so forth. These are essential characteristics of any valid methodology. ESM employs a traditional and well established system of mathematics called hexagrammatic topology. This is a term we are proposing for what appears to have been around since the beginnings of literate civilizations, i.e. , circa 1100 B. C. (e.g., the Chou Dynasty in China which gave us the I CHING; the Mycennaen civilization that led to the Illiad of the Greeks; the Egyptian Book of the Dead; the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi). The beginnings of literacy were understandably functional evolutionary developments: verbal but preliterate human societies (i.e., 3, 000 years ago and beyond) were dependent on oral rituals of transmission of knowledge, tradition, practice, and ideals. There was thus maintained by necessity a caste system in society in which a few had the contact and conscious relationship with the past and therefore, with the continuity in conception and in awareness of the mechanisms of culture
The Discovery of Sudden Memory by Leon James and Diane Nahl
Now we ask: Is this experiential component as real and amenable to scientific investigation as the biological component? We propose an affirmative solution though it will require a suitable methodology, suitable for the investigation of phenomena that are non-temporal, viz., synchronous. The hexagrammatic approach is the original methodology of synchronic synthesis devised by the first civilizations to invent literacy, i.e., the community practice of publishing knowledge and indexing text. This led to books, manuals, archives, official records (see Section [5. 2. 3] in Chapter 5). This method survives today in the form of the treatise called the "I Ching" and attributed to Confucius and earlier scholars of the Chinese Dynasties (circa 1100 B.C.). The I Ching is a unified theory of social settings and presents an exhaustive system of 64 situational hexagrams corresponding to the modalities of conduct on the daily round.
Ethnosemantic methodology (ESM, for short) requires a special register just as statistics and experimental methodology involve specialized registers, i.e., vocabulary, syntax, mathematical operations abstract conceptions, formalized argument procedures, explicitness, routine replicability, and so forth. These are essential characteristics of any valid methodology. ESM employs a traditional and well established system of mathematics called hexagrammatic topology. This is a term we are proposing for what appears to have been around since the beginnings of literate civilizations, i.e. , circa 1100 B. C. (e.g., the Chou Dynasty in China which gave us the I CHING; the Mycennaen civilization that led to the Illiad of the Greeks; the Egyptian Book of the Dead; the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi). The beginnings of literacy were understandably functional evolutionary developments: verbal but preliterate human societies (i.e., 3, 000 years ago and beyond) were dependent on oral rituals of transmission of knowledge, tradition, practice, and ideals. There was thus maintained by necessity a caste system in society in which a few had the contact and conscious relationship with the past and therefore, with the continuity in conception and in awareness of the mechanisms of culture
The Discovery of Sudden Memory by Leon James and Diane Nahl
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Hmm...these guys build their hexagrams from the top down.
The Chinese build theirs from the bottom up.
{But then, the tao is said to flow down and collect in the lowest places, like water.}
Remembering is a (re)creative act. (But then again, we could always go into the whole meme thing...)
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Alright let's test this sudden memory thing out, regarding the development of indexing systems in conjunction with written language as compared with cultural development:
Let's see, I suddenly remembered that Feng Shui means wind-water. Using the trigrams for wind (on the bottom, since that's how the Chinese build their hexagrams) and water (on the top), one builds the hexagram known as Žing. It's a well. Let's see what that says:
(Looking at) Žing, (we think of) how (the site of) a town may be changed, while (the fashion of) its wells undergoes no change. (The water of a well) never disappears and never receives (any great) increase, and those who come and those who go can draw and enjoy the benefit. If (the drawing) have nearly been accomplished, but, before the rope has quite reached the water, the bucket is broken, this is evil.
1. The first SIX, divided, shows a well so muddy that men will not drink of it; or an old well to which neither birds (nor other creatures) resort.
2. The second NINE, undivided, shows a well from which by a hole the water escapes and flows away to the shrimps (and such small creatures among the grass), or one the water of which leaks away from a broken basket.
3. The third NINE, undivided, shows a well, which has been cleared out, but is not used. Our hearts are sorry for this, for the water might be drawn out and used. If the king were (only) intelligent, both he and we might receive the benefit of it.
p. 166
4. The fourth SIX, divided, shows a well, the lining of which is well laid. There will be no error.
5. The fifth NINE, undivided, shows a clear, limpid well, (the waters from) whose cold spring are (freely) drunk.
6. The topmost SIX, divided, shows (the water from) the well brought to the top, which is not allowed to be covered. This suggests the idea of sincerity. There will be great good fortune.
Footnotes
166:XLVIII Žing, which gives its name to this hexagram, is the symbol of a well. The character originally was pictorial (
What is said on Žing might be styled 'Moralisings on a well,' or Lessons to be learned from a well for the good order and government of a country.' What a well is to those in its neighbourhood, and indeed to men in general, that is government to a people. If rulers would only rightly appreciate the principles of government handed down from the good ages of the past, and faithfully apply them to the regulation of the present, they would be blessed themselves and their people with them.
In the Thwan we have the well, substantially the same through many changes of society; a sure source of dependance to men, for their refreshment and for use in their cultivation of the ground. Its form is what I have seen in the plains of northern China; what may be seen among ourselves in many places in Europe. It is deep, and the water is drawn up by a vessel let down from the top; and the value of the well depends on the water being actually raised. And so the principles of government must be actually carried out.
Line 1, being weak, and at the very bottom of the figure, suggests, or is made to suggest, the symbolism of it. Many men in authority are like such a well; corrupt, useless, unregarded.
Line 2 is strong, and might very well symbolise an active spring, ever feeding the well and, through it, the ground and its cultivators; but it is in an inappropriate place, and has no proper correlate. p. 167 Its cool waters cannot be brought to the top. So important is it that the ministers of a country should be able and willing rightly to administer its government. In the account of the ancient Shun it is stated that he once saved his life by an opening in the lining of a well.
Line 3 is a strong line, in its proper place; and must represent an able minister or officer. But though the well is clear, no use is made of it. I do not find anything in the figure that can be connected with this fact. The author was wise beyond his lines. After the first sentence of the paragraph, the duke of Kâu ceases from his function of making emblems; reflects and moralises.
Line 4 is weak, but in its proper place. Its subject is not to be condemned, but neither is he to be praised. He takes care of himself, but does nothing for others.
Line 5 is strong, and in its right place. The place is that of the ruler, and suggests the well, full of clear water, which is drawn up, and performs its useful work. Such is the good Head of government to his people.
Line 6 is in its proper place, but weak. If the general idea of the figure was different, a bad auspice might be drawn from it. But here we see in it the symbol of the water drawn up, and the top uncovered so that the use of the well is free to all. Then the mention of 'sincerity' suggests the inexhaustibleness of the elemental supply.
Žing, which gives its name to this hexagram, is the symbol of a well. The character originally was pictorial (
), intended to represent a portion of land, divided into nine parts, the central portion belonging to the government, and being cultivated by the joint labour of the eight families settled on the other divisions. In the centre of it, moreover, was a well, which was the joint property of all the occupants.
This is really very interesting. It corresponds to the Feng Shui method of dividing a room up into the nine different areas/zones, or guas, associated with with different functions of life, with health being the well at the center.
Here's a link to a Feng Shui site explaining the guas.
I would say that is a startling correlation. {One hexagram down, 63 left to go.}
However, I must remind you that correlation does not prove causation.
(Something else you can show your friend who practices Feng Shui when you ask her about design, intelligence, and intelligent design.)
Netti-Netti
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Interesting, SG. Not sure how the correlation sheds light on intended application of the I Ching, though.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
I was just trying to present some empirical data, (which seems to support the development of Feng Shui through I Ching meme.) Of course, the sudden memory article didn't present any empirical evidence to support its supposition...
Netti-Netti
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I sympathize with you in this matter. Here's our dilemna. The Chinese language developed over several thousand years. It has been traced to Neolithic times and may be 5000 years old. If you accept the idea of Feng Shui being older than the Chinese language, we might reasonably deduce that Feng Shui antedated the Confucius rewrite of the I Ching by at least 2000 years.
Indeed. It's quite possible that Feng Shui gave rise to the I Ching rather than the other way around.....
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Actually, you have a valid point there. Is there any way to determine whether Fu Hsi (also spelled Fu Xi) practiced early Feng Shui?
Netti-Netti
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I suppose it depends on when Feng Shui became recognizable. It seems the term itself did not appear until well after the discovery of the Lo Shu pattern that is attributed to Fu Hsi.
Also, it seems the dating of that pattern is in question. (It may be more recent.)
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
I agree that the term Feng Shui wasn't in use until later. However, the practice of it seems to be quite old. I've heard old burial sites have been discovered that have been arranged according to its principles. The above post with the wind-water hexagram, corresponding to the well glyph, which corresponds to the bagua, makes it difficult to draw a clear line of cause and effect. The book burnings that occurred in Chinese history further obscures the matter.
DrumR
Well-Known Member
Greetings seattlegal.
Please excuse the tardiness of my reply, for I know it has been well over a year, and yet there are some aspects of what you and Netti-Netti have written, concerning feng shui and the I Ching, that have triggered a tingling of somewhat at the edge of my memory. (either that, or it may just be due to the after effects of excessive coffee drinking in my youth.
)It may take a bit to decipher what these supposed quasi-thoughts are but I believe they have something to do with the connection of the myth/history writing of the initial I Ching.
Ahh, well. A new 100mm of snowfall and time to refill my cup from the first pot of Lapsong for the season.
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sunwukong
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Tao with Buddhism and Confucianism,
The spirits of them are the same.
The spirits of them are the same.