Son: My, Thy, The

[Dream]

The identity of 'Son' is possibly the mother of all disagreements between the three major Abrahamic claimants, but I need to bring it up. Hopefully we can have interesting discussion. I'm someone not in the Trinitarian camp and recently no longer in the fundamentalist Christian camp. I'm thinking that many Christian writings about 'The Son', such as the Gospel of John are arguably about a disbursment of G-D upon many people, rather than just one person -- Jesus. It seems to me that 'The Son' mentioned in John and elsewhere was not an individual; but a gift housed in the people.

In the last few months, this idea has gained a lot of momentum with me. It leads me to look for historical connections with the idea of Son in Scripture, or some kind of basis for where the NT writers were coming from. I say the early Christians interpreted the Son as being in the multitude, and they based this upon Israel being called the Son. I begin with Israel, Proverbs, and Deuteronomy.

Six Arguments

Six arguments assert that the son mentioned in Proverbs is Israel and that Proverbs 4:10-11 is a paraphrase to several passages in Deuteronomy including the prelude to the 10 Commandments(Deuteronomy 6:1-3) and the conclusion (Deut 30:16)

1. Isn't Israel called 'My Son' directly in Hosea 11:1?
2. look how how the verse in Proverbs connects 'Years of thy life' with the 'Way of wisdom' and 'Right paths' -- just like Deuteronomy does! The author of Proverbs is either commenting upon Deuteronomy or he's trying to replace Deuteronomy, because he says "I have taught thee in the way of wisdom..." --> He cannot have the authority to replace Deuteronomy, so it is a commentary.
3. Proverbs is addressed to Israel, or it wouldn't be canon.
4. Proverbs is written to 'My son', but that son is never named. The name is the reader's.
5. Passover (Deuteronomy 6:21)
6. In the opening to the ten commandments (Deut 6:2) the statutes and commandments are commanded to 'thou, and thy son, and they son's son'. Who else can Proverbs be speaking to when it says "Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings..."

Proverbs 4:10-11 Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many. I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths.

RSV Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Deuteronomy 6:2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

Deuteronomy 30:14-16 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Deuteronomy 6:21 Then thou shalt say unto thy son, We were Pharaoh's bondmen in Egypt; and the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand:

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Dream,
How does the "Jesus" story line work with this idea?
Joe

 

[Dream]

Hi, it just becomes more about Jesus being the first among many brothers. That is already part of Christianity; but but the main thing it affects is John 1. Instead of the infinite G!d in one person only, all persons who received the light became the tabernacle of the word made flesh. Think of it this way: if Israel had not had the golden calf incident, then they would have been a country of kings and priests. The idea of Jesus ministry was to make up for the error. I'll follow this with a bigger post.

 

[Dream]

Meaning of Baptism
The gospel that says the most about the Son is the Gospel of John. (Jesus ministry was kicked off by John the Baptist's.) The gospel of John begins an elegant explanation of a new baptism with the words "In the beginning." I suggest that the first chapter of the gospel of John is all about a baptism. John 1 (looking at Young's Literal translation) says that John came to testify of the Light. Those who received the Light received authority to become 'Sons of God' and 14 "the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory,..." Elsewhere the Christians were called earthen vessels containing treasure(2Co4:7), they were called heavenly lights(Jam1:17), and joint heirs with Christ(Rom8:13).

The Pharisees asked John "Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the prophet?"(John 1:25). Clearly only Moses, Elijah, or 'the prophet' (and their followers) should baptize! Remember that Moses name (Moshe) translates to 'Drawn out' (referring to the story of baby Moses when the princess of Egypt drew him out of the river Nile), and it was Moses who first instituted 'Baptism' in Israel. Following Moses, Elijah and his successor Elishah who divided the waters and walked through them, but all of Israel was baptized in Moses' name. A prophet in the wilderness baptizing 'All of Israel' was a major political and religious development.

Spiritual Unity - The Son
What it means to do something in someone's name: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"(Matt 28:19) Look at Paul's statement "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."(Eph 4:4-6) Especially note the phrase 'There is one body and one Spirit' in the previous verse and that it is made though means of baptism. That is the significance of acting in someone's name -- that you are baptized into one body and no longer your own.

About 'The Jesus Story':
The affect is that the Son is the light of a new creation, in other words a new ministry of baptism. The first thing Jesus did after his own baptism was to succeed against the tempter. Then, upon his return he announced(see Luk4:18) the fulfillment of Isaiah 61. The fulfillment of 61 requires Elijah to return, and both the return of Elijah and Isaiah 61 are about renewal of everything and everyone in Israel. This renewal is called the 'Year of the L!RD's favor', Jubilee, spiritual reformation, and the inheritance of the saints finally received. That is why Christians call themselves a new creation or firstfruits of all that was created as well as why it is said 'All' things were created by, for, or through Jesus. The same would be said of Moses about many things before Jesus came.

Isaiah 61:6-7 but you shall be called the priests of the LORD, men shall speak of you as the ministers of our God; you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their riches you shall glory. Instead of your shame you shall have a double portion, instead of dishonor you shall rejoice in your lot; therefore in your land you shall possess a double portion; yours shall be everlasting joy.
Malachi 4:4-6 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and ordinances that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel. "Behold, I will send you Elijahthe prophet before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Dream,

Think of it this way: if Israel had not had the golden calf incident, then they would have been a country of kings and priests.

I'm not sure by what you mead by kings and priests. On a literal level there were plenty of both.
Joe

 

[Dream]

Exodus 19:6 "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation...."

Something along those lines.

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Dream,

Elsewhere the Christians were called earthen vessels containing treasure(2Co4:7), they were called heavenly lights(Jam1:17), and joint heirs with Christ(Rom8:13).

James 1:17 from the NASB
17: Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation of shifting shadow.
I don't see how this works with what you quoted here.

About 'The Jesus Story':
The affect is that the Son is the light of a new creation, in other words a new ministry of baptism. The first thing Jesus did after his own baptism was to succeed against the tempter. Then, upon his return he announced(see Luk4:18) the fulfillment of Isaiah 61. The fulfillment of 61 requires Elijah to return, and both the return of Elijah and Isaiah 61 are about renewal of everything and everyone in Israel. This renewal is called the 'Year of the L!RD's favor', Jubilee, spiritual reformation, and the inheritance of the saints finally received. That is why Christians call themselves a new creation or firstfruits of all that was created as well as why it is said 'All' things were created by, for, or through Jesus. The same would be said of Moses about many things before Jesus came.

I'm not so sure Jesus Christ came to start something new, resuscitate maybe.
Matt 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
As you read through Acts you see how the Gentile Christians were "grafted into" the Jewish Christian family.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G!d, and the Word was G!d.
In Jewish thought the Torah existed before creation. ( I don't know how far back this thinking goes, maybe I should check it out). Assuming the author of John was Jewish, it's not that much of a stretch to think that maybe this is what he was thinking.
1:2 He was in the beginning with G!d.
1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

Would you say the Light of men is the same as this: 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of G!d?

.02
Joe

 

[Dream]

I don't see how this works with what you quoted here.

I forgot to include both verses 17 and 18 of James 1, so I only mentioned vs 17. Both put together read "Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures." They are born from the 'Father of lights'. Additionally, they are call first fruits of 'all his creatures', which also could imply they are part of a new creation.

I'm not so sure Jesus Christ came to start something new, resuscitate maybe.
Matt 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
As you read through Acts you see how the Gentile Christians were "grafted into" the Jewish Christian family.

I think I understand your argument and that Jesus said "only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


Agreed that the grafting appeared first in Acts, however in Acts everything began with a message 'only to the house of Israel' and did not bring any message to Gentiles until later. On Pentecost (starting with chapter 2), the apostles and disciples began their mission to reach all Israel throughout the world, wherever they had been dispersed. As for renewal of the world, Jesus told his apostles to wait for him in Jerusalem until Pentecost (a feast which modeled in 50 days the 50 year Jubilee cycle of renewal and liberation), by which he was making a statement to Israel. Pentecost is the feast of firstfruits or new grain alluded to by James when he says "a kind of firstfruits of all his creatures." Pentecost represents "the year of the L!RD's favor" of Isaiah 61, the prophecy that Jesus proclaimed after his baptism. The idea of a new creation runs blue throughout the NT, and its rooted in the concept of Jubilee. Consider these two NT verses:

• Galatians 6:14-16 But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God.
• 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

In Jewish thought the Torah existed before creation. ( I don't know how far back this thinking goes, maybe I should check it out). Assuming the author of John was Jewish, it's not that much of a stretch to think that maybe this is what he was thinking.

Torah for Dummies says Torah existed before creation, too. Scholars (Talmudic) among others have said that Genesis creation account actually represents the creation of prophecy, but you can also determine this yourself using John 1 and the opening of Revelation as a commentary on Genesis. In Revelation John exchanges the seven days of Genesis for the 'Seven churches', meaning that Jesus' church was a completely new creation to him. (If I sound too insistent, Joedjr, I might be stuck in a rut. I'm merely discussing and I hope not insisting.)

Would you say the Light of men is the same as this: 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of G!d?

Yes. To get there first move forward to 3:19-20 "And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed" This part of Jesus conversation with Nicodemus fit nicely with the shocker Jesus earlier gave him (my paraphrase) that the spirit would go wherever it pleased and was out of man's control! So you see that one of the teachings characteristic of the light is that the spirit could move so freely. This was not so much a disagreement between Christianity and Judaism but more of a fight between G!d and our longing for rules and mechanisms or boxes. Like most people, Nicodemus had probably invested a lot of hope in the methods and institutions of his day and hoped he could rely upon them. This was in conflict with Jesus basic message. Seen in John 1 it says "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13)

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Dream,

3:19-20 "And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed" This part of Jesus conversation with Nicodemus fit nicely with the shocker Jesus earlier gave him (my paraphrase) that the spirit would go wherever it pleased and was out of man's control! So you see that one of the teachings characteristic of the light is that the spirit could move so freely.

reminds me of this, from the NASB
Matt 5:45 So that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Judaism but more of a fight between G!d and our longing for rules and mechanisms or boxes. Like most people, Nicodemus had probably invested a lot of hope in the methods and institutions of his day and hoped he could rely upon them. This was in conflict with Jesus basic message. Seen in John 1 it says "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13)

Is this not just a continuation of the same teaching from the Old Testament proclaiming a need for keeping the heart in a certain way and following ritual with not doing so, is not acceptable to G!d.
Joe

 

[juantoo3]

My two cents, which are probably not even worth that much:

the son mentioned in Proverbs is Israel and that Proverbs 4:10-11 is a paraphrase to several passages in Deuteronomy including the prelude to the 10 Commandments(Deuteronomy 6:1-3) and the conclusion (Deut 30:16)

1. 
   
   Surely an interesting thought, but I'm not sure I'm ready to buy just yet.
   
   

   [*] Isn't Israel called 'My Son' directly in Hosea 11:1?

   
   I'll have to refresh my memory regarding Hosea, but even if this is so it does not automatically establish precedent. If nothing else, which was written first? Proverbs or Hosea? I am thinking Proverbs was written first, so Hosea could not be the precedent for Proverbs...I could be mistaken, but that's how I remember it.
   
   

   [*] Proverbs is addressed to Israel, or it wouldn't be canon.
   
   [*] Proverbs is written to 'My son', but that son is never named. The name is the reader's.
   
   Who else can Proverbs be speaking to when it says "Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings..."

   
   Well, the way I got the story is that the teacher of wisdom is addressing Solomon. That is, "Who else can Proverbs be speaking to" other than Israel proper is Solomon as a pupil *learning* wisdom. The "son" in Proverbs is the student seeker of wisdom. Solomon may have (or not) written Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes, but Proverbs is acknowledged as having a number of different authors, case in point being the chapter devoted to what a respectable woman is (the literary style is markedly different from the other chapters).
   
   The story I got years ago is that Proverbs was composed of various wisdom lessons for the prince-king to train him in the way of wisdom. The other books of poetry/wisdom attributed to Solomon are likely written by him, but Proverbs is a collection of the lessons given *to* him.
   
   I hope I made some sense.
   
   I'm not trying to discount your idea, just trying to put one or two of your questions/presumptions into a context you might not have considered.

 

[Dream]

Hi Dream,

reminds me of this, from the NASB
Matt 5:45 So that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

In Matthew Jesus gives a moral lesson to be kind even to evil people -- like the Father sends sunshine and rain for everyone. In John Jesus talks to Nicodemus about the separation of light from darkness. His reference to creation is just as intentional as the phrase 'In the beginning' and is consistent with the theme of John. Jesus says in John 3:19 "this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light." (In Genesis the second act of creation is to separate light from darkness.)

Is this not just a continuation of the same teaching from the Old Testament proclaiming a need for keeping the heart in a certain way and following ritual with not doing so, is not acceptable to G!d.
Joe

Luke 16:16-17 "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void."

Here in Luke Jesus says the law and the prophets were until John the Baptist and then mentions heaven and earth passing away. This is the new creation which John repeatedly refers to. It were just a continuation of previous things then John the Baptist would not be persecuted by the leadership. The whole problem with JohnB is that he calls himself the 'Voice in the wilderness', referring to a prophecy that involves destroying the high places and raising up the low places (politically and spiritually). Think of it as yet another destruction of the world, only instead of a flood it comes by other means.

 

[Dream]

My two cents, which are probably not even worth that much:...

....I am thinking Proverbs was written first, so Hosea could not be the precedent for Proverbs...I could be mistaken, but that's how I remember it.

Well, the way I got the story is that the teacher of wisdom is addressing Solomon. That is, "Who else can Proverbs be speaking to" other than Israel proper is Solomon as a pupil *learning* wisdom. The "son" in Proverbs is the student seeker of wisdom.

Excellent points, and you shot the six gun right outa my hand! Of course, Proverbs cannot be referencing Hosea! Nevertheless, the selected verses still sound like a paraphrase of the Deut., so I've kept my shotgun.

I remember now (I really forgot and wasn't trying to set anybody up) that the L!RD directly calls Solomon 'My Son'. He says "I will be his father, and he shall be my son; I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from him who was before you,"(I Chronicles 6:13) Now I know of two individual claimants of 'My Son' -- Solomon and Jesus, one predating Hosea and one postdating it. Hosea itself names Israel as 'My Son'. What can it mean? It apparently means that Saul was not a son, since the L!RD's love was taken from him; whereas Solomon was a Son meaning the L!RD's love could never be taken from him (as it was from Saul). I remember a Pauline reference to this that says "The gifts and calling of God are without repentence."(Romans 11:29) In fact, this is probably why they say 'Once a Jew always a Jew.'

Solomon may have (or not) written Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes, but Proverbs is acknowledged as having a number of different authors, case in point being the chapter devoted to what a respectable woman is (the literary style is markedly different from the other chapters).

The story I got years ago is that Proverbs was composed of various wisdom lessons for the prince-king to train him in the way of wisdom. The other books of poetry/wisdom attributed to Solomon are likely written by him, but Proverbs is a collection of the lessons given *to* him.

I hope I made some sense.

No you make lots of sense. Its me I'm worried about. You seem to know history about Proverbs. If I follow your meaning and cruelly twist what you are saying, then the Proverbs are meant to encapsulate some of the wisdom given to the Solomon. The Solomon 'My Son' passes them on to other 'My Son's? I reinvoke Deuteronomy 6:2 "...thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life..."

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Dream,

Luke 16:16-17 "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void."

Here in Luke Jesus says the law and the prophets were until John the Baptist and then mentions heaven and earth passing away. This is the new creation which John repeatedly refers to. It were just a continuation of previous things then John the Baptist would not be persecuted by the leadership. The whole problem with JohnB is that he calls himself the 'Voice in the wilderness', referring to a prophecy that involves destroying the high places and raising up the low places (politically and spiritually). Think of it as yet another destruction of the world, only instead of a flood it comes by other means.

How many prophets can you think of in the Old Testament, that had problems with leadership? Many!
"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void." I think folks like to pass over this part a bit too much.
.02
Joe

 

[Dream]

Thanks for your response.

"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void." I think folks like to pass over this part a bit too much. ...
...How many prophets can you think of in the Old Testament, that had problems with leadership? Many!

That's what people do with difficult passages (pass them over), but they shouldn't have to. The apparent contradiction is clarified! A covenant with G!d cannot be broken - unless the earth is broken, however it is Jesus who has said that just such a covenant was only until John (aka ends with John). Jesus says the Law and Prophets were 'until John' (aka ended with JohnB), but that is not the only thing John the Baptist fulfills in type instead of literally. It is just like the prophecy of Elijah returning in Malachi chapter 4, which is also fulfilled by JohnB.

In saying Elijah has come, Jesus has proclaimed renewal and incorporated every prophecy and figure about Elijah's return (but without him physically returning) -- all of which both destroy and renew the world. In a way, they destroy and remake the Prophets, too. For Jesus, John the Baptist fulfills Malachi 4:5-6 -- yet not literally!(Mat 11:13-14) What is the difference between that and saying the earth has passed away in type? None.

Matthew 11:13-14 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John; and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come."

Malachi 4:5-6 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Dream,

fulfills in type instead of literally. --------- In a way yet not literally! What is the difference between that and saying the earth has passed away in type? None.

Ahh....... a kind of ....... a type of ....... in a way .......

I was thinking of this the other day, and honestly a lot of days before, but not recent.
anyway: So I was going out to my favorite Indian curry place to get my favorite dish, the one they make just about perfect. But on this day for what ever reason they were closed. Kinda bummed me out. So I went to the same kind of restaurant across town, they were open and I ordered the same type of dish. Well you know in a way it was almost the same but just not as good. Man, there's just nothing like getting the real thing.
..... end of story.
.02
Joe

 

[Dream]

Man, there's just nothing like getting the real thing.

Which is why its a terrible thing to hear the words "Brother, we missed you on Sunday." How sad it is that people will insist on mouthing familial words just to convince themselves that it is so. That is not the case with G-d.

So I was going out to my favorite Indian curry place to get my favorite dish, the one they make just about perfect. But on this day for what ever reason they were closed.

That's pretty bad all right.