Death with dignity

Thomas

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There has been some discussion here in the UK about 'right to life' and the planned exit therefrom. One of the arguments centres on the notion of the dignity of the individual.

And I read this today, from Cardinal Avery Dulles, who died this week.

"Suffering and diminishment are not the greatest of evils but are normal ingredients in life, especially in old age. They are to be expected as elements of a full human existence. Well into my 90th year I have been able to work productively. As I become increasingly paralyzed and unable to speak, I can identify with the many paralytics and mute persons in the Gospels, grateful for the loving and skillful care I receive and for the hope of everlasting life in Christ. If the Lord now calls me to a period of weakness, I know well that his power can be made perfect in infirmity. "Blessed be the name of the Lord!"

Now I'm not banging any religious gongs here — I focus on the beginning of the quote, and its logic.

And I am caused to wonder, is this 'planned departure' a real dignity, or is the above the more dignified position. Are we not choosing to avoid the 'indignity' of death because we are embarrassed by our humanity? I am not advocating a death in pain, nor suffering ... but they are part of the human condition ... like women who opt for caesarian section, rather than go through the 'indignity', the discomfort, or the inconvenience, of natural childbirth ...

So I can agree with the author in suggesting that planned departures are, in a certain way, undignified retreats from reality, a form of moral cowardice. In the same way that cosmetic surgery to retain one's youthful good looks is another indignity, a debasement of humanity.

What was that movie in which everyone was zapped off around thirty?

Just something to think about.

Thomas
 
Children of the corn?

This whole thing, choosing not to be a burden, choosing your time, to me is quite personal.

I for one am not willing to advocate or condone and wish gov'ts would do the same.
 
like women who opt for caesarian section, rather than go through the 'indignity', the discomfort, or the inconvenience, of natural childbirth ...

Discomfort? lol, go have a large gash put in your gut, and have a child pulled out of it... Then tell me there is no discomfort... :) Also like an extra two months of healing.

Off topic, but... Couldn't let that comment go un-replied too...
 
go not gentle onto that good night... rage , rage, against the dying of the light...

and yet...

I believe a person should have the right to choose not to suffer. There is nothing dignified in dying of rectal cancer, radioactive tubes up ones ass, unable to defecate, drowning in your own secretions with hospital acquired pneumonia.

Suffering and feeling humiliated are not noble ideals one must embrace to be truely human. The time will come when we all will die. If I am pain, and I know the end is near, and there is no cure, nothing to help me with the pain, then I will arrange things so that I do not die in agony. I cannot blame anybody else for doing the same.

If pain is something good, then next time you have a headache, or toothache, you should refrain from using analgesics. Next time you have a baby, stay away from the pethidine. Car accident? Arm hanging off? Stay away from the morphine, then.

It's just vanity and a lack of humanity to use medicines, to allay fears, to put the kybosh on pain.

?
 
What was that movie in which everyone was zapped off around thirty?

Thomas

I think you're thinking of Logan's Run (which originally was a book, I believe, but I could be mistaken.) There was a TV series by that name, too.

Sorry. :eek: ( :kitty:'s in the mail with all the necessities.)

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
 
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I understand what you're saying, Thomas. I think the problem is, however, that we've thoroughly domesticated ourselves. What I mean is this-- the natural order of things tends to be a quick end to life once one gets old or seriously ill. Before modern medicine, most people died before the prolonged and agonizing illness such as Alzheimer's and cancer. We hang on now because we've already taken the step to "play God" and extend our lifespan through artificial means. The line between artificial and natural is blurred as we make "living" dependent on medications, surgeries, machines, transplants, etc.

Washington state recently voted on a Death with Dignity act and it passed with a 60% margin. Soon, if you have 6 months or less to live and the proper medical certification, you can choose a lethal dose of... think it's sleeping medication... to end your life early rather than suffer. My thoughts?

Well, I doubt I'd use it. I find a certain purpose in suffering, and I've suffered quite a bit from a chronic condition that, when out of control, causes extreme pain. I've learned to deal with it and found that there is some value I can find there, despite never wishing acute episodes on myself or anyone else. However, I don't think that means I should force my views on suffering and dignity to anyone else. Some people find a terminal illness an opportunity to slowly withdraw, detach, go within, and transition to the next life. Some find some peace in familial relationships, and some family members find peace in care-taking. Other people I've worked with through hospice had no family, suffered alone in state-sponsored nursing homes, and died alone. Except for someone like me who volunteered through hospice to go in and sit with them, hold their hand, talk to them... they'd be treated like machines who were hopeless, at the junkyard waiting to be thrown into the crusher. Sad, but true. Little dignity there once dementia set in. Still, Western biomedicine had its way, and those who were deemed mentally incompetent due to dementia and had no family advocates were shocked again and again back to life, only to suffer again and again from pneumonia and terminal illness, all with a complete lack of their own understanding of the value or meaning behind these actions.

I will never, ever forget Lily, who was not a patient of mine but grabbed me one day and ushered me into her shared room. Staring into my eyes, desperate, pleading... she asked me to help her go. I still cry thinking about it. There's a lot to it. I'd been with several patients who were drifting in and out of this world, who were labeled by the doctors as having dementia but (to me) obviously were ready to die and were with their loved ones who had already passed, but were consistently brought back and so unable to go. Each day I went, I'd sit with them, and listen to their happy discussion of their visits with dead husbands, mothers, and so forth... and their agonizing frustration and being brought back to their bodies again and again, unable to move on until their last bit of energy was spent and the body refused technology's grasp. I did not judge. I did not treat them like they had dementia. I listened. I do not know if they talked amongst themselves when I was gone, or how they perceived me. But Lily thought I was an angel. She did not ask me to kill her or assist her suicide. She thought I had the power to release her in a way that would not allow her to return. She was desperate, and why she saw me this way, I will never know. But it broke my heart to tell her I couldn't, that due to legality and lack of family, she was doomed to be in that body until biomedicine had no longer been able to call her spirit back.

So...

I do not judge another's choice in death. It is not my place. We each must deal with our own physical condition, the former choices we have made, and the surrounding legality of our final days.

I know that if I had a disease that was likely to land me in Lily's place, or Sarah's, or any other of the patients I had sat with and watched, helpless, as they fought toward death rather than being allowed to go... I'd take the chance, long before I was deemed demented and unwanted but somehow greatly desireable as a medical experiment in futility, and head out into the woods or if this were an impossibility, I'd fast. I would not kill myself through artificial means, but I'd let nature take its course. I'd not go so gently that I gave up what I believe is the potential for a calm, self-possessed, and transcendent transition to the next life. I'd not take a pill and go in my sleep. But neither would I give up my humanity and become a machine for science to poke at.

It's a deeply individual choice, this. I voted yes. I deeply believe it is not for the government to make decisions about such things, nor should it be imposed upon us by any church or religion. A "yes" vote does not mean I do not respect life, or that I am unwilling to suffer, or that I negate the potential value in doing so. It means that I recognize the complex circumstances that yield the dying experience, and that I recognize the free will and humanity of each dying person, and I affirm their right to their own life and death on their own terms. Such choices are between the individual and God.
 
I stand in silence before your words.

And I feel honoured to have read them.

Thomas
 
Hi Thomas

So I can agree with the author in suggesting that planned departures are, in a certain way, undignified retreats from reality, a form of moral cowardice. In the same way that cosmetic surgery to retain one's youthful good looks is another indignity, a debasement of humanity.

Our attitude towards death I believe makes it impossible for society to be realistic. I know here in the States we had the Terry Schiavo incident. Leaving all the politics out of it, society's conclusion was to allow a person to die slowly from dehydration. I looked at the autopsy report and it seemed what some had said was right and the parts of the brain dealing with higher consciousness were functional. Pain centers exist all over the brain. So the bottom line that it was probably around a 50 percent chance, (if it were 30 would it matter?) that she was conscious of her slow death. But our values are such that all things considered this slow death was allowed to take place as the best alternative. When I was following this case I concluded that any form of collective ethics based on reality is impossible if these things can happen. So much for death with dignity.

Then my research on Simone Weil revealed the doctor's insult that she refused treatment in her hopeless condition. The doctor considered it a suicidal act not to come pleading but to go through what she had no fear of. From a Wiki discussion

I assume we all agree that she was a most independent woman...a formidable discussant [she scared Simone de Beauvoir by unmasking bourgeois tendencies according to Memoirs of a Dutiful Daughter].
So, how does this fit the end of her life. She was really sick - TB. They had collapsed the lung and it did not good at all. The dr. wanted to do it again. She refused [what today would be call the 'right to refuse treatment' - especially frutiless treatment. He got mad that she would not just acquiesce [like any patient, especially woman was expected to do] and so when she died he signed the death certificate that she died as a result of self starvation.
Here is where Pretrement comes in...documents the testimony of her nurse, some friends who would bring food in etc. Even goes to her confessor, 2nd doctor etc. Now, I have had some friends who have died and almost none of them wanted to each anything near the end...cancer, TB etc. there is a natural loss of appetite. So, I do not want to include all that in the encyclopedia article but want to put it out here for consideration.
Then of course Jesus death was a planned departure far before the event. Was it an undignified retreat from reality and moral cowardice or the ultimate experience of reality and the conscious awareness of a moral obligation to help mankind in pursuit of re-birth?
It is attitudes like these in relation to passing on that convince me how immature many are and how this immaturity of so many in positions of power adversely effects others.
 
Our dominance as a species has brought us to this.

No other animal worries about dying of old age. We're spared being eaten alive and traded that in for dissipation.

To each his own. Hopefully I'll age near a cliff, to throw myself over when it's time.
 
I am caused to wonder, is this 'planned departure' a real dignity, or is the above the more dignified position. Are we not choosing to avoid the 'indignity' of death because we are embarrassed by our humanity? I am not advocating a death in pain, nor suffering ... but they are part of the human condition ... like women who opt for caesarian section, rather than go through the 'indignity', the discomfort, or the inconvenience, of natural childbirth ...
I agree that suffering is a natural state, but is it a normal state? What is your definition of "suffering?" Is pain a normal state? At what point is continual pain to be considered suffering? At what point is continual suffering simply too much?

At what point does the physician's Hypocratic Oath take precedence, not to do harm, or to cause suffering?

If suffering is natural, is it a sin to cause others to suffer? Is it a sin to cause your own blood kin to suffer?

:D From my vantage, suffering is not all its cracked up to be. I've suffered for way too many years with chronic pain. I would trade it in an instant for a decent night's sleep, and I would seriously consider trading it for a peaceful transition to the next existence.

Just something to consider.

PS, the movie *is* Logan's Run.

The film begins with an on-screen preamble which summarizes the premise of the film:

“ Sometime in the 23rd century...the survivors of war, overpopulation and pollution are living in a great domed city, sealed away from the forgotten world outside. Here, in an ecologically balanced world, mankind lives only for pleasure, freed by the servo-mechanisms which provide everything. There's just one catch: Life must end at thirty unless reborn in the fiery ritual of Carousel. ”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan's_Run_(1976_film)
 
What is your definition of "suffering?"

Buddhists describe suffering in many ways that go beyond mere pain.

Suffering is rooted in our attachments and cravings, our inability to accept the impermanence and conditionality of all things. So we suffer when we desire. We suffer when we strive to maintain. We suffer when we lose. We even suffer when we gain (we just don't think we do).

Can we live without suffering? Not entirely. But by seeing it for what it is suffering loses much of its sting. It ceases to be our master and transforms into our companion.
 
Having watched my father die many years ago from inoperable lung cancer - a process which took more than two years - I have already made the decision that, if I should ever be in his situation, I will definitely do something to hasten my departure when the pain becomes unbearable and/or when I cannot function on my own.

I should note that I am a two-time cancer survivor and have had at least 10 surgeries (including 2 C-sections) and many injuries, so I am quite familiar with pain and have a much higher tolerance for it than many peeople.
 
Having watched my father die many years ago from inoperable lung cancer - a process which took more than two years - I have already made the decision that, if I should ever be in his situation, I will definitely do something to hasten my departure when the pain becomes unbearable and/or when I cannot function on my own.

I should note that I am a two-time cancer survivor and have had at least 10 surgeries (including 2 C-sections) and many injuries, so I am quite familiar with pain and have a much higher tolerance for it than many peeople.

Sorry to learn this. One of the most emotionally confusing experiences I've had recently concerns working as a musician in a hospice. I'm also a recent cancer survivor and am hired in a lot of homes to make people happy and bring them out of their depression. When I am doing a show, all sorts of emotions move in me concerning the people and my own situation. Yet I mask it and pass along energy to them. It is like layered emotion.

Simone Weil is sometimes considered suicidal by people unable to understand this time in a person's life. From a wiki discussion:

I assume we all agree that she was a most independent woman...a forminable discussant [she scared Simone de Beauvoir by unmasking bourgeois tendencies according to Memoirs of a Dutiful Daughter].
So, how does this fit the end of her life. She was really sick - TB. They had collapsed the lung and it did not good at all. The dr. wanted to do it again. She refused [what today would be call the 'right to refuse treatment' - especially frutiless treatment. He got mad that she would not just acquiese [like any patient, especially woman was expected to do] and so when she died he signed the death certificate that she died as a result of self starvation.
Here is where Pretrement comes in...documents the testimony of her nurse, some friends who would bring food in etc. Even goes to her confessor, 2nd doctor etc. Now, I have had some friends who have died and almost none of them wanted to each anything near the end...cancer, TB etc. there is a natural loss of appetite. So, I do not want to include all that in the encyclopedia article but want to put it out here for consideration.

This physician believed she should have begged and pleaded but instead she did what was natural so they called her suicidal rather then support the dignity of her death..
 
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