Was Jesus a Gnostic ?

Jesus said, If those who lead you say to you, See, the kingdom is in the sky, then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you; it is in the sea, then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realise that it is you who are sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty"...

from The gospel of Thomas...
 
Jesus said, If those who lead you say to you, See, the kingdom is in the sky, then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you; it is in the sea, then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realise that it is you who are sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty"...

from The gospel of Thomas...

But I love looking into the sky. :rolleyes: Above is below me. But take noting literally.
 
Has anyone actually read my post with any level of Spiritual Understanding or even simple comprehension?

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

:) Not by the look of the responses.

Why must people overlay their baggage on to your words?

It is rather simple, JC said "I and my Father are One" that is a Gnostic statement if ever I have seen one. He also said "I do what I see Father doing" it is pretty obvious that he had direct knowledge of G-d and is therefore Gnostic as you and I would define the term. - Not a member of the Christian Gnostic movment with it's pistis sophia.. or any other BELIEF system! A Gnostic is "One who has direct knowledge of the Divine".

Your definition of ISRAEL is perfect!

The "chosen" people of G-d are those who see Him and know Him. Not any one people group, nothing to do with blood or ancestory!

I " " the word chosen because you all are, you just need to "wake up". ;)


Much Love to you all,

Logan
 
It is rather simple, JC said "I and my Father are One"
Not quite that simple: more accurately, the author of the gospel of John said that Jesus said, ....
It is not at all safe to take for granted that Jesus actually said any such things. We can safely say that the author of "John" was Gnostic in his attitudes, and believed (or at least, wished us to believe) that Jesus was also, but what Jesus himself thought and said may have been rather different.
 
Hmm, that is a good point. That view can also be used for all of reality and therefore direct experience is the only thing you can trust, but even then reality is decoded based on the content of your mind.

We can argue around in circles all day and no one really wins, it is the nature of duality.

Be still, free your mind and know the truth, it is there waiting for you.

Love is all around us, it's every where we go.
 
Well I should remember sometime to look those papers up, though I'm not able to for now. I have a difficult time imagining what it would be like to be a real gnostic and actually believe in it. There are times when I seem to come across just the right information before it is needed, but there are other times that cancel it out when I needed to know something and didn't. How can anybody really be a gnostic who has had to live a normal, strenuous life? How many times must a gnostic bang his/her head on a cabinet door or overhead tree branch before he/she admits to only being occasionally gnostic? And what good is being occasionally gnostic?
 
Was Jesus a Gnostic?


The question is: was Jesus, Himself, a Gnostic? If what we are told in the Bible is actually true, then obviously Jesus must have been a Gnostic ....

To believe that God would only reveal Himself to one ‘ethnic clan’ (or ‘race’) of people (i.e. the Hebrews / Jews) demonstrates the typical blindness and ignorance of religion!

and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Genesis 12:3)

Christ (is) the Saviour of the world (John 4:42)

And all flesh shall see the salvation of God (Luke 3:6)
No sure where to go with a post that (1) misrepresents universality of the Biblical view on salvation and (2) doesn't provide a single example of what Jesus might have said that would lead one to raise the OP question.

First we must define what a genuine Gnostic is. The word comes from ancient Greek (Gnosis), and means Divine (i.e. Mystical / Spiritual) 'experiential' KNOWLEDGE of God (i.e. the “Supreme Power”, or the “ALL”). Thus a genuine Gnostic is one who has such “first-hand” Divine KNOWLEDGE of God (N.B. NOT mere 'beliefs', traditions, dogmas, and 'theories'!).
I'm not sure the original Greek Gnosis was a religious concept.
 
Well I should remember sometime to look those papers up, though I'm not able to for now. I have a difficult time imagining what it would be like to be a real gnostic and actually believe in it.

It seems you misunderstand what being a gnostic is, there is nothing to "believe" in it is about knowledge not belief that's the beauty of it.

It is a wonderful thing to be pursued by God, you know no Love like it.

There are times when I seem to come across just the right information before it is needed, but there are other times that cancel it out when I needed to know something and didn't.

One thing you need to learn is not to try and make God conform to your will.

How can anybody really be a gnostic who has had to live a normal, strenuous life? How many times must a gnostic bang his/her head on a cabinet door or overhead tree branch before he/she admits to only being occasionally gnostic? And what good is being occasionally gnostic?

I have to laugh at that, you think a normal life is strenuous, is that really normal? I would have to say no, that is common but certainly not normal or how life has to be.

Can a gnostic bang his head? Of course! That doesn't make one any less of a gnostic, it just means you weren't paying attention!

Most if not all people are as you say occasionally gnostic, they call it intuition.

Being gnostic means you talk to God, He (she or whatever you like) talks to you, sings to you, visits you in dreams & during the day, laughs with you, plays with you, hugs and kisses you (yes you read that correctly).You're best friend and divine lover, the more you grow together the more you are shown who/what you really are, the less YOU are, the more HE is.

I can't begin to put it into words, it is something one needs to experience for oneself.

Love,

Logan
 
Hi Logan. I'm glad you are being pursued by God. Jesus at least partly falls into much of the description you just gave, maybe because he must fit the Bible passages. May be what you think gnostic is and what I think gnostic is, isn't what each other thinks it is. It could also mean I don't know what it is, but it seems difficult to pin down what the definition should be.

I and I,
Dream.
 
If gnosis here simply refers to knowledge, then Jesus of Nazareth was certainly one of the greatest gnostics the world has ever known. Indications are that Jesus traveled extensively throughout Egypt and the Far East, becoming initiated in the Mystery Traditions of various locations and cultures.

St. Paul refers to this Gnosis, drawing heavily upon the Eleusinian (Greek) Mysteries. Inasmuch, Paul was certainly a gnostic too, attaining to the same initiatic degree as did Jesus himself, albeit under different circumstances. Jesus, after all, received the Christ in a somewhat unique way, and took upon himself the special role of presenting a symbolic motif that has survived 2,100 years ... despite efforts to stamp out the Revelation.

Some teachings refer to Jesus as a Lord of Compassion, in contrast to those who are sometimes called Masters of the Wisdom. The Theosophical Adepts are largely in this latter category, with some exceptions (such as the Master Serapis). The Tibetan Master DK emphasizes heavily that we must understand the 2nd Ray energy (emanating from the 2nd Person of the Christian Trinity, or the Vishnu branch of the Hindu Trimurti) as Love-Wisdom.

To understand that this is indeed a dual energy it may become necessary to further explore the blended nature of Divine manifestation, but to attempt to separate Love from Wisdom completely is misguided and - impossible. Christ's own injunction along these lines may be best remembered in His instructions to the apostles as He sent them out, saying, "Be ye wise, as Serpents, and harmless, as Doves."

From a very practical level, it shouldn't take much contemplation to realize that naturally, Jesus was a gnostic. We are suggesting, are we not, that Jesus had at least a moderate understanding of God's Plan for Humanity (let alone perfect understanding) ... as well as the wherewithal to go about a Divinely-ordained mission of demonstrating & sharing this Plan on literally a global scale. Could this have been accomplished, even for 3 years, by anyone who did not KNOW?

To ask if Jesus was a gnostic definitely begs the question, Knower of what? If we mean formal Gnostic teaching, with all of its misconceptions & shortcomings, then I would still have to argue, sure, Jesus knew plenty about that. Would he then have taught this kind of system to his followers - and left indications sufficiently veiled that even the most clever of pontiffs and popes wouldn't see the writing in between the lines? That's a harder question to address.

Jesus had to work with what was on hand. The disciples were not ideal students. Even the degree of enlightenment of the supposed masters of the day was at a fairly low ebb, as indicated in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus ("you call yourself a learned master, yet know ye not these things?" etc.). Sometimes I cringe when I imagine a similar conversation between about 90% of today's clergy and a contemporary Jesus. I think he might well say to them, "Did you not realize that any child, any teenager, and probably any soccer mom knows about things like out-of-body & near-death experiences? And didn't you know that you too could learn about such topics, just by visiting your neighborhood Barnes & Noble? What do you think libraries are for, anyway?" ;)

There's no reason Jesus would have taught his disciples incorrectly, or taught them half-truths, but what he would have had to deal with was their background, the understanding that was current with them (collectively and individually) when he first called them. He would have had insight into their former lives, their current potential, and their greatest capacity both for progress and for intellectual understanding, if you will.

Most esotericists at least can accept and account for what we tend to call the Intuition, or straight-knowledge, in our conscious experiences. This is called `Buddhi' in the East and is the domain of the superego of Jungian and transcendental psychology ... the Higher Self. Dreams, also, play a significant role in how the Soul communicates with us. Sometimes we even remember our nightly sojourns, and these factor into our spiritual understanding and progress. Would Jesus not have made use of all of these factors - and in particular, the capacity of each follower to access the Soul awareness - in his teachings and Ministry?

So Jesus would have surely applied the same synthetic approach in his teaching as have the Masters of every age, though with special attention to whatever was prevalent at the time. He knew that John `the Beloved' had the intuition and developed capacity of consciousness to understand the teachings in ways that other disciples couldn't. Yet this might be explained by a similarity between the two men, spiritually speaking. Perhaps both were, and are, on the same line of Divine Approach that is indicated by the appellation, `Lord of Compassion.' Others of the disciples might have had a capacity to grasp teachings in a way that even John the Beloved could not, intellectually, because their own Ray (or means of spiritual apprehension) makes them future (or present) `Masters of the Wisdom.'

What's important for those of us who understand things this way is to realize that all are present or future members of the same Spiritual Hierarchy, which is the heart center (chakra) of our Planetary Entity. As such, the Masters of the Wisdom (as they are collectively called) all serve under the Aegis and guidance of the Christ, at the heart of Hierarchy, and thus the Will of God (at Shamballa, the Father's House) is, in turn, effectively served. The goal for the New Era, as Christ brings to us new Revelation regarding the specific Purpose for our planet's (and Humanity's) creation ... is to further assist in the synthesis of the three Divine Centers: Hierarchy (heart center), Humanity (throat/creative center) and Shamballa (head center). In this we are all, slowly but surely, becoming gnostics & seers. The method is Aquarian, rather than Piscean, yet the transformation is still essentially the same - and more vital than ever.
 
If gnosis here simply refers to knowledge, then Jesus of Nazareth was certainly one of the greatest gnostics the world has ever known. Indications are that Jesus traveled extensively throughout Egypt and the Far East, becoming initiated in the Mystery Traditions of various locations and cultures.

St. Paul refers to this Gnosis, drawing heavily upon the Eleusinian (Greek) Mysteries. Inasmuch, Paul was certainly a gnostic too, attaining to the same initiatic degree as did Jesus himself, albeit under different circumstances. Jesus, after all, received the Christ in a somewhat unique way, and took upon himself the special role of presenting a symbolic motif that has survived 2,100 years ... despite efforts to stamp out the Revelation.

Some teachings refer to Jesus as a Lord of Compassion, in contrast to those who are sometimes called Masters of the Wisdom. The Theosophical Adepts are largely in this latter category, with some exceptions (such as the Master Serapis). The Tibetan Master DK emphasizes heavily that we must understand the 2nd Ray energy (emanating from the 2nd Person of the Christian Trinity, or the Vishnu branch of the Hindu Trimurti) as Love-Wisdom.

To understand that this is indeed a dual energy it may become necessary to further explore the blended nature of Divine manifestation, but to attempt to separate Love from Wisdom completely is misguided and - impossible. Christ's own injunction along these lines may be best remembered in His instructions to the apostles as He sent them out, saying, "Be ye wise, as Serpents, and harmless, as Doves."

From a very practical level, it shouldn't take much contemplation to realize that naturally, Jesus was a gnostic. We are suggesting, are we not, that Jesus had at least a moderate understanding of God's Plan for Humanity (let alone perfect understanding) ... as well as the wherewithal to go about a Divinely-ordained mission of demonstrating & sharing this Plan on literally a global scale. Could this have been accomplished, even for 3 years, by anyone who did not KNOW?

To ask if Jesus was a gnostic definitely begs the question, Knower of what? If we mean formal Gnostic teaching, with all of its misconceptions & shortcomings, then I would still have to argue, sure, Jesus knew plenty about that. Would he then have taught this kind of system to his followers - and left indications sufficiently veiled that even the most clever of pontiffs and popes wouldn't see the writing in between the lines? That's a harder question to address.

Jesus had to work with what was on hand. The disciples were not ideal students. Even the degree of enlightenment of the supposed masters of the day was at a fairly low ebb, as indicated in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus ("you call yourself a learned master, yet know ye not these things?" etc.). Sometimes I cringe when I imagine a similar conversation between about 90% of today's clergy and a contemporary Jesus. I think he might well say to them, "Did you not realize that any child, any teenager, and probably any soccer mom knows about things like out-of-body & near-death experiences? And didn't you know that you too could learn about such topics, just by visiting your neighborhood Barnes & Noble? What do you think libraries are for, anyway?" ;)

There's no reason Jesus would have taught his disciples incorrectly, or taught them half-truths, but what he would have had to deal with was their background, the understanding that was current with them (collectively and individually) when he first called them. He would have had insight into their former lives, their current potential, and their greatest capacity both for progress and for intellectual understanding, if you will.

Most esotericists at least can accept and account for what we tend to call the Intuition, or straight-knowledge, in our conscious experiences. This is called `Buddhi' in the East and is the domain of the superego of Jungian and transcendental psychology ... the Higher Self. Dreams, also, play a significant role in how the Soul communicates with us. Sometimes we even remember our nightly sojourns, and these factor into our spiritual understanding and progress. Would Jesus not have made use of all of these factors - and in particular, the capacity of each follower to access the Soul awareness - in his teachings and Ministry?

So Jesus would have surely applied the same synthetic approach in his teaching as have the Masters of every age, though with special attention to whatever was prevalent at the time. He knew that John `the Beloved' had the intuition and developed capacity of consciousness to understand the teachings in ways that other disciples couldn't. Yet this might be explained by a similarity between the two men, spiritually speaking. Perhaps both were, and are, on the same line of Divine Approach that is indicated by the appellation, `Lord of Compassion.' Others of the disciples might have had a capacity to grasp teachings in a way that even John the Beloved could not, intellectually, because their own Ray (or means of spiritual apprehension) makes them future (or present) `Masters of the Wisdom.'

What's important for those of us who understand things this way is to realize that all are present or future members of the same Spiritual Hierarchy, which is the heart center (chakra) of our Planetary Entity. As such, the Masters of the Wisdom (as they are collectively called) all serve under the Aegis and guidance of the Christ, at the heart of Hierarchy, and thus the Will of God (at Shamballa, the Father's House) is, in turn, effectively served. The goal for the New Era, as Christ brings to us new Revelation regarding the specific Purpose for our planet's (and Humanity's) creation ... is to further assist in the synthesis of the three Divine Centers: Hierarchy (heart center), Humanity (throat/creative center) and Shamballa (head center). In this we are all, slowly but surely, becoming gnostics & seers. The method is Aquarian, rather than Piscean, yet the transformation is still essentially the same - and more vital than ever.
Thank you for that information. While Jesus may appear related to gnostic ideas it helps to view him in a gnostic way to see him as a gnostic. This is a gnostic version of Jesus. This thread has given me a broader understanding of how gnosticism works. It has a lot to do with exploring ideas and making declarative statements about those ideas. Then those declarative statements generate more ideas and so on.
 
If gnosis here simply refers to knowledge, then Jesus of Nazareth was certainly one of the greatest gnostics the world has ever known. Indications are that Jesus traveled extensively throughout Egypt and the Far East, becoming initiated in the Mystery Traditions of various locations and cultures.

St. Paul refers to this Gnosis, drawing heavily upon the Eleusinian (Greek) Mysteries. Inasmuch, Paul was certainly a gnostic too, attaining to the same initiatic degree as did Jesus himself, albeit under different circumstances. Jesus, after all, received the Christ in a somewhat unique way, and took upon himself the special role of presenting a symbolic motif that has survived 2,100 years ... despite efforts to stamp out the Revelation.

Some teachings refer to Jesus as a Lord of Compassion, in contrast to those who are sometimes called Masters of the Wisdom. The Theosophical Adepts are largely in this latter category, with some exceptions (such as the Master Serapis). The Tibetan Master DK emphasizes heavily that we must understand the 2nd Ray energy (emanating from the 2nd Person of the Christian Trinity, or the Vishnu branch of the Hindu Trimurti) as Love-Wisdom.

To understand that this is indeed a dual energy it may become necessary to further explore the blended nature of Divine manifestation, but to attempt to separate Love from Wisdom completely is misguided and - impossible. Christ's own injunction along these lines may be best remembered in His instructions to the apostles as He sent them out, saying, "Be ye wise, as Serpents, and harmless, as Doves."
From etymonlie.com

believe O.E. belyfan, earlier geleafa (Mercian), gelefa (Northumbrian), gelyfan (W.Saxon) "believe," from P.Gmc. *ga-laubjan "hold dear, love," from PIE base *leubh- "to like, desire" (see love). Spelling beleeve is common till 17c.; then altered perhaps by influence of relieve. To believe on instead of in was more common in 16c. but now is a peculiarity of theology; believe of also sometimes was used in 17c.
belief c.1175, replaced O.E. geleafa, from W.Gmc. *ga-laubon (cf. O.S. gilobo, M.Du. gelove, O.H.G. giloubo, Ger. glaube), from *galaub- "dear, esteemed." The prefix was altered on analogy of the verb. The distinction of the final consonant from that of believe developed 15c. Belief used to mean "trust in God," while faith meant "loyalty to a person based on promise or duty" (a sense preserved in keep one's faith, in good (or bad) faith and in common usage of faithful, faithless, which contain no notion of divinity). But faith, as cognate of L. fides, took on the religious sense beginning in 14c. translations, and belief had by 16c. become limited to "mental acceptance of something as true," from the religious use in the sense of "things held to be true as a matter of religious doctrine" (c.1225).​
It seems you misunderstand what being a gnostic is, there is nothing to "believe" in it is about knowledge not belief that's the beauty of it.
Are you really sure about that? ;)
 
Hi Dream —

There are many modes of gnosis, and gnosis means many things according to the discipline to which it is ascribed.
While Jesus may appear related to gnostic ideas it helps to view him in a gnostic way to see him as a gnostic. This is a gnostic version of Jesus. This thread has given me a broader understanding of how gnosticism works. It has a lot to do with exploring ideas and making declarative statements about those ideas. Then those declarative statements generate more ideas and so on.
Quite so ... but the Christian Gnostic, that is the one who reads 'gnosis' through a Christian eye, looks not so much to knowledge but to being ... in his own teachings Christ emphasised always and emphatically not what one knows, but what one does.

Christianity is a way of the heart, not of the head (although each elements contains every other element within itself). The technical term is metanoia, which implies not only a new idea, or a new way of thinking, or indeed new knowledge ... but a new way of being.

St Paul, that exemplar of Christian gnosis, was very, very careful to point his followers in the right direction:
Romans 11:33
"O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways!"
God cannot be contained, he can be understood through His theophanies, His energies (Gk: energia) but He cannot be comprehended in Himself, either by the will (His judgements are incomprehensible to us) nor the intellect (His ways are unsearchable to us).

It is not God who is incomprehensible, nor unsearchable, for God cannot be irrational, but rather He That Is lies beyond the investigative power of our faculties, the gnosis of God is impossible because in God there is no object of knowledge, therefore it is impossible, by knowledge, to aspire to Him.

But is is possible by love, for in love is the communication of self to another ... and in this it is not man who rises to God, it is God, who is love (1 John 4:8) who comes to the creature in whom He delights, and it is the Spirit of God who dwells in the human soul:
"Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" and in that temple, "God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba!" (Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6).

St John, of course, who sat with the Lord and would have heard the beating of the Heart of the World, is even more explicit:
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abideth in us, and his charity is perfected in us." 1 John 4:12
Now as God is All-Perfect it cannot be that his 'charity' can be perfected, certainly not in a mere creature ... rather again the scribe is pointing to the fact that we are perfected by His grace through love.

This is how the Christian gnosis, in love God comes to man: we know it, we cannot see it, but we know it, and this unknowing knowing, this dark radiance in the soul, is what Christian gnosis is all about:
"Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be... "
therefore no system of knowledge can contain or comprehend it
"... We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is."1 John 3:2

This is Christian gnosis, the faith that transcends all knowledge. All one needs to know is a name by which to call on Him.

Thomas
 
Hi Dream —

There are many modes of gnosis, and gnosis means many things according to the discipline to which it is ascribed.

Quite so ... but the Christian Gnostic, that is the one who reads 'gnosis' through a Christian eye, looks not so much to knowledge but to being ... in his own teachings Christ emphasised always and emphatically not what one knows, but what one does.

Christianity is a way of the heart, not of the head (although each elements contains every other element within itself). The technical term is metanoia, which implies not only a new idea, or a new way of thinking, or indeed new knowledge ... but a new way of being.

St Paul, that exemplar of Christian gnosis, was very, very careful to point his followers in the right direction:
Romans 11:33
"O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways!"
God cannot be contained, he can be understood through His theophanies, His energies (Gk: energia) but He cannot be comprehended in Himself, either by the will (His judgements are incomprehensible to us) nor the intellect (His ways are unsearchable to us).

It is not God who is incomprehensible, nor unsearchable, for God cannot be irrational, but rather He That Is lies beyond the investigative power of our faculties, the gnosis of God is impossible because in God there is no object of knowledge, therefore it is impossible, by knowledge, to aspire to Him.

But is is possible by love, for in love is the communication of self to another ... and in this it is not man who rises to God, it is God, who is love (1 John 4:8) who comes to the creature in whom He delights, and it is the Spirit of God who dwells in the human soul:
"Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" and in that temple, "God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba!" (Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6).

St John, of course, who sat with the Lord and would have heard the beating of the Heart of the World, is even more explicit:
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abideth in us, and his charity is perfected in us." 1 John 4:12
Now as God is All-Perfect it cannot be that his 'charity' can be perfected, certainly not in a mere creature ... rather again the scribe is pointing to the fact that we are perfected by His grace through love.

This is how the Christian gnosis, in love God comes to man: we know it, we cannot see it, but we know it, and this unknowing knowing, this dark radiance in the soul, is what Christian gnosis is all about:
"Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be... "
therefore no system of knowledge can contain or comprehend it
"... We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is."1 John 3:2

This is Christian gnosis, the faith that transcends all knowledge. All one needs to know is a name by which to call on Him.

Thomas
Hi Thomas,

Thank you for explaining that, and I think you have put it at a level which I can understand. (My level, though, is higher than it once was.) Do you think of understanding these things you are talking about as a dimensional problem? For instance: in 2 dimensions a sphere looks like a circle, and a person looks like a shadow. Our eyes can only see two dimensionally, however our minds take all of the 2-D images to make a 3-D perspective.

To me, while working to understand the translated Christian and Jewish texts it has been as if the meanings for things have changed almost beneath my pen as I wrote to repeat what I had seen. In the process of thinking and writing something a little different appeared which I would not have seen, which was an idea. It is as if the shape seemed to change until I realized I was seeing slices of an object, not just a shape. Similarly, people don't learn Physics just by reading a Physics textbook; because we must work Physics mental exercises to learn Physics. Seeing is not enough to understand, and eyes are not enough to perceive in depth. That being said, I'm not saying I necessarily agree with or understand everything you just said; but I'm saying I understand dialogue requires depth and not just reading the material.
 
Hi Thomas,

Thank you for explaining that, and I think you have put it at a level which I can understand. (My level, though, is higher than it once was.) Do you think of understanding these things you are talking about as a dimensional problem? For instance: in 2 dimensions a sphere looks like a circle, and a person looks like a shadow. Our eyes can only see two dimensionally, however our minds take all of the 2-D images to make a 3-D perspective.

To me, while working to understand the translated Christian and Jewish texts it has been as if the meanings for things have changed almost beneath my pen as I wrote to repeat what I had seen. In the process of thinking and writing something a little different appeared which I would not have seen, which was an idea. It is as if the shape seemed to change until I realized I was seeing slices of an object, not just a shape. Similarly, people don't learn Physics just by reading a Physics textbook; because we must work Physics mental exercises to learn Physics. Seeing is not enough to understand, and eyes are not enough to perceive in depth. That being said, I'm not saying I necessarily agree with or understand everything you just said; but I'm saying I understand dialogue requires depth and not just reading the material.
Dream, have you also considered that our eyes see things only moment to moment? Each moment is a slice of an action. (Although each moment can bleed into the next by lingering on or retina, as with this optical illusion below.) Our mind provides the continuity between the slices our eyes perceive, and builds the perspective of movement. These slices linger in our minds.

Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind.
One said, “The flag moves.”
The other said, “The wind moves.”
They argued back and forth but could not agree.

Hui-neng, the sixth patriarch, said: “Gentlemen! It is not
the flag that moves. It is not the wind that moves. It is
your mind that moves.”

The two monks were struck with awe.​

seattlegal-albums-misc-picture1125-optical-illusion-pink-dot-circle.gif
 
Dream, have you also considered that our eyes see things only moment to moment? Each moment is a slice of an action. (Although each moment can bleed into the next by lingering on or retina, as with this optical illusion below.) Our mind provides the continuity between the slices our eyes perceive, and builds the perspective of movement. These slices linger in our minds.
Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind.
One said, “The flag moves.”
The other said, “The wind moves.”
They argued back and forth but could not agree.

Hui-neng, the sixth patriarch, said: “Gentlemen! It is not
the flag that moves. It is not the wind that moves. It is
your mind that moves.”

The two monks were struck with awe.​
seattlegal-albums-misc-picture1125-optical-illusion-pink-dot-circle.gif
I had not thought about it much, except I know that one of the ancient Greek schools of thought viewed time itself as a series of moments, not as something continuous. I occasionally like to think each moment is unique, therefore eternal in a sense. It is like a number or a star, never before and never again.

(I saw a TV special once where a man fell in-between the moments of time and observed one of the construction crews required to build each moment. They built the same shopping mall over and over, the same house, the same world for each new moment. Normal people would pop out of one time frame and into the next, use them for about a minute, and be done with them. After normal people were done and gone, the construction crews would move in to demolish the old moment.)
 
Was Jesus a Gnostic?

First we must define what a genuine Gnostic is.

When I hear 'gnostic' I think of gnostic Christian duality borne of the dissonance between Jewish religion and the spiritual mystery of the gnostics. I definitely don't think Jesus ascribed to that.

Did Jesus taken an internalized approach to scripture? I see no reason to doubt it.
 
Are you really sure about that? ;)

We can wax words all day long, shall we see how many definitions we can come up with or shall we understand the point? NB I did use " " for a reason.

I was saying there is a huge difference between "I believe in God" (no conscious interaction) and "I know God" (conscious interaction).

I am not an intellectual and I do have trouble expressing things in words, but I know what I know and I know that you are able to have a direct experience of God. As far as I am concerned this is Gnosis and if you interact with God on a conscious level you are Gnostic, and from what information we have on Jesus, it seems he was Gnostic indeed.

God loves you, I love you, peace be yours in abundance.

Logan
 
Unfortunately words can’t show you the truth, they are dead words, symbols that are easily misinterpreted, they mean different things to different people and seldom is the essence of them received as the author intended.

What you need is the living word, the Spirit of Truth. Good news! It lives within you, this is the point Jesus was trying to make. Don’t be of the blind leading the blind, where do they end up? In the ditch! Stop living in a book like the Pharisees (and all of the world’s religions), it won’t work, you won’t find the salvation you seek and you will remain lost and confused.

The key is to seek God, to seek Truth. God lives in the temple of you!

The greatest commandment (and in my opinion the only one you need) is this, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind soul and strength. Hear me, God is ONE, everything is one thing. All is to be loved with all of your being, love does not discriminate. Jesus said not to resist evil, to love your enemies, turn the other cheek and love your neighbor as yourself. Are you getting it?

Think of your awareness as a TV set, this TV has two input ports Input 1 is running rampant, it is displaying all of your thoughts they are useless, repetitive, redundant thoughts that only serve to distract you and keep you asleep, wake up! All of the things that you think you are, male/female, white/black, 57 years old etc, etc, on and on it goes but it is not you, none of it, it is a conglomerate of lies, of I’s, they are egos, demons, the Legion. Input 2 is where God lives, turn off Input 1 and you will hear God speak, how can you here God if you don’t be quiet and let him speak.

It is written "Be still and know that I am God." Invite him in, true are the words - knock and the door will be opened, seek and you will find.

Let go and let God remove the Legion, seek to save your life and you will lose it. Surrender fully to God

But you don’t have to listen, the choice is yours, these words are dead, they are a finger pointing to the moon, the moon is within.

If you wish to take up your cross, to die daily, to follow Jesus then good luck my heart is with you.
 
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