Why Sunday?

Quahom1 said:
According to the Roman calendar of 2000 some years ago, Saturday (The day of Saturn), was the seventh day of the week. This in and of itself is irrelevant due to the Romans not observing a "Sabbath", according to Muslim, Judeao/Christian thinking (today).

Sunday (day of Sol), is the first day and the first orb we see in the sky.
Monday (day of the Moon) is the second day and the second orb.
Tuesday (day of Mars) is the third day and the third orb we can see. It is also the day of the god of war.
Wednesday (Day of Mercury) is the fourth day. It is also the day of the messenger god or demi god.
Thursday (Day of Jupiter) is the fifth day. It is also the day of the thunder god.
Friday (Day of Venus) is the sixth day. It is also the god of love and vanity.
Saturday (Day of Saturn) is the seventh day. It is also the day of the god of Time and Harvest, the day of rest, and the day when Rome was often turned on its ear (masters served slaves, crimes went unpunished, revelry was taken often to excess.

That said:
After Constantine became the sole emperor (circa 321 AD), he provided many benefits to Christians they had not previously enjoyed. Since the first century, Christianity had been designated a religio illicita (illegal religion) which meant they were legally forbidden to meet. Among the benefits bestowed on the Christians was the removal of the stigma of an illegal religion. He did not make Christianity the empire's state religion. He also made it possible for Christians to do many other things they had not been permitted prior to his accession. One of those things was public worship. Constantine recognized that Christians were already meeting on the first day of the week, so he designated that as a day of worship.

Sufficient information from Scripture, the early church fathers, and other sources all recognize it was the Christians' custom to meet together on the first day of the week. Constantine did not change the Sabbath. The Sabbath is still Saturday. It commemorates the day God rested after his labors.

It commemorates Creation. Christians worshiped on the first day of the week because Jesus rose from the grave on the first day of the week. It therefore commemorates a "new creation" brought into being by the resurrection of Christ.

So, it seems we are to keep the Sabbath holy (and also rest on the Seventh day, which is Saturday), and we can choose to worship when ever we wish, so we decided that for some of us it would be Sunday, the first day of the week.

Gotta remember, it used to be work six days and rest on the seventh. Now for many of us it is work 5 days, rest on the seventh and the first (works for me) :D

By the by, we're still called on to pray unceasingly...(I do beleive that has nothing to do with days or hours, let alone weeks).

v/r

Q
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Sunday keeping did not begin until about the 2nd century. The resurrection was the main reason given, but the apostles did not keep Sunday or teach that we should keep it.

The reason for change was more about anti-Jewish sentitments in the Roman Empire.
The resurrection was a good excuse for justfitying the change, but there is no Biblical mandate.

None of the early church fathers of the 2nd century said that Jesus changed the Sabbath.

God Bless


Marc
 
Faithfulservant said:
-It was to be kept from sunset to sunset (Lev. 23:32)
-No burden was to be carried (Jer. 17:21
-No fire kindled (Ex. 35:3)
-No Cooking done (Ex. 16:23)
-The penalty for doing any of these things during the Sabbath was DEATH (Numbers 15).
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1. I do keep Sabbath from sunet to sunset
2. the command about burdens was to stop people carrying thier goods to sell in the market on the Sabbath
3 & 4. making a fire in ancient times required a lot of work, as did cooking
they had the preparation day to prepare things
5. we are not living under a theocracy, the civil side of the law is obsolete

Jesus did not reject the Sabbath, but he rejected the man made rules added to it.

Jesus did not say his disciples could go fishing, but when they were hungry it was OK to pick some heads of corn.

Jesus presented the Sabbath as a day of delight.
But there was never a question as to which day it was.
Jesus kept the Sabbath according to God's law, as Lord of the Sabbath he knew how it should be kept. It was the misinterpretation of the law by the Pharisees that had caused the problem.

God Bless


Marc
 
rasell said:
2. the command about burdens was to stop people carrying thier goods to sell in the market on the Sabbath

"massa' is the word for burden used in (jer 17:21 and 24 )hebrew the definition is
  1. load, bearing, tribute, burden, lifting
    1. load, burden
    2. lifting, uplifting, that to which the soul lifts itself up
    3. bearing, carrying
    4. tribute, that which is carried or brought or borne
  2. utterance, oracle, burden n pr m (BDB) Massa = "burden"
  3. a son of Ishmael
jer 17:22 nor carry a burden "massa'" out of your houses on the Sabbath day, nor do any work, but hallow the Sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

*this shows that carrying burdens is also different from doing "work"

the word used in this passage is m@la'kah
  1. occupation, work, business
  2. occupation, business
  3. property
  4. work (something done or made)
  5. workmanship
  6. service, use
  7. public business
    1. political
    2. religious
3 & 4. making a fire in ancient times required a lot of work

*Can you supply scripture for that for this? It seems pretty clear to me that you should not light any fire on the sabbath.

Ex 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

the hebrew word for kindle used in this scripture is "ba'ar" meaning

  1. to burn, consume, kindle, be kindled
    1. (Qal)
      1. to begin to burn, be kindled, start burning
      2. to burn, be burning
      3. to burn, consume
      4. Jehovah's wrath, human wrath (fig.)
    2. (Piel)
      1. to kindle, burn
      2. to consume, remove (of guilt) (fig.)
    3. (Hiphil)
      1. to kindle
      2. to burn up
      3. to consume (destroy)
    4. (Pual) to burn v denom
  2. to be stupid, brutish, barbarous
    1. (Qal) to be stupid, dull-hearted, unreceptive
    2. (Niphal) to be stupid, dull-hearted
    3. (Piel) to feed, graze
    4. (Hiphil) to cause to be grazed over

The hebrew word for fire in this scripture is 'esh
fire
  1. fire, flames
  2. supernatural fire (accompanying theophany)
  3. fire (for cooking, roasting, parching)
  4. altar-fire
  5. God's anger (fig.)
Jesus did not reject the Sabbath, but he rejected the man made rules added to it.
* Which man made rules? the not lighting of fires? The not cooking? the not creating burdens for another? Im not speaking of the levitical rules im talking about the commands of God to Israel in the OT.

Jesus did not say his disciples could go fishing, but when they were hungry it was OK to pick some heads of corn.

*Matthew 12:1 yes he allowed them to feed themselves. Thats also contrary to Gods command in the OT Jer17:21 showing Christ giving freedom from the law.

Jesus presented the Sabbath as a day of delight.
*No argument from me there :)


Marc
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Faithful Servant
 
Jesus knew how to correctly interpret the laws about the Sabbath. He said it was not his purpose to abolish the law. He never broke the law, that would have been against his teachings.
What he did was reject the legalistic interpretation of the law by the Pharisees.

God Bless


Marc
 
I am seeing this as a way that God applied a law to keep Israel in line. A way for them to remember God and devote the day to God. In which case work would, could or might get in the way of that.

I am seeing that we still do it out of tradition. A five day work week. Two days off or one day off, whichever applies and some churches have service on both days or one or the other.

My father always said to me when I was growing up, "Remember every day and keep God in every day and to keep every day holy."

So the idea of exalting a (day) above another or not working is not how I see the sabbath. It could almost get to the point where the DAY or the NO WORK becomes a bigger issue than God and holiness and that we are supposed to remember Him.

I think some get to the point of passing a judgement on others and we have to be careful with these things. It is still one of the commandments, but because a child tells a lie, we cannot judge each other in there eternal destination.

So I am thinking the idea of 'rest' as in not doing anything or leisure gets the law a little off balance. If you walk, that is not rest. If we get dressed and go to the Temple, that is not rest. If you eat, that is not rest.
If the main water pipe breaks are we just going to let it run water for 24 hours and not call the city? If a wild animal attacks someone in your yard are you just going to let them suffer and possibly die, until the next day before you get medical attention? Maybe some people would.

If we just lay around all day, that would be rest.:)

I think observing God one day (7th day) out the week is a good thing to do and is what God intended in that law.

Why are they resting? To remember God is what I am seeing in this. We STOP our activities and remember God. We make preparation ahead of time to remember God and commune with Him.
This should happen every day, not just 52 days a year.

We see God made man on the 6th day. Lets just say it was a literal day and a literal week, but we know it wasn't.
If man is now HERE on earth since God made him today (the 6th day) then God has not rested because we have not entered the 7th day. There is no lapse or another week that took place between the time God made man and another day of rest.

I see there In Genises where God rested on the 7th day as still prophecy.

See, God is our (mans) eternal rest. WE (people) are His rest. We (people) enter into his rest on the seventh day at the coming of our Lord Jesus.

So what I am seeing is when Jesus said, "My father works and so do I" then in return we are still in mans day and God has not rested yet.

So if something should be done that needs to be done, or someone needs help that cannot wait, then we should do it and use a little common sense while keeping every day we live Holy.

This is just one way I see it.:)
 
Faithfulservant said:
The Sabbath is still not being kept.. even though its claimed to be.

NO "BURGER KING" SABBATHS - You can't "Have It Your Way" with the Sabbath. God specifies how it was to be kept.


-It was to be kept from sunset to sunset (Lev. 23:32)
-No burden was to be carried (Jer. 17:21
-No fire kindled (Ex. 35:3)
-No Cooking done (Ex. 16:23)
-The penalty for doing any of these things during the Sabbath was DEATH (Numbers 15).


Starting your car is firing an engine.. you are making a spark which is fire.

You are not to create work for other people.. You turn the lights on in your house you are creating work for SOMEONE. If you stop and get gas.. and you pay at the checkout.. Your creating work for someone.

You cant take part of the law and apply it and not think about the rest. If your held to the law as strictly as God commanded its not possible and therefore too burdensome.
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He he he, hence the addage "The Ten commandments were not given to man to observe, but to show man that alone, he was (and is), incapable of observing them..."

One cannot serve God and Mammon, nor can he have two masters. When Law becomes a god, we really get screwed up. Even the Jews had exceptions to the rule. Soldiers still stood guard, walking is an effort, but allowed, eating and drinking makes the body work, yet it was allowed. In fact the very act of living takes effort, but it was allowed. If someone died on the Sabbath, they were still buried before sunset (talk about a major sweat breaker). A woman in labor on the Sabbath did alot of work, as did everyone else associated with her.

Really, death for picking up a stoke of wood on the Sabbath to keep your fireplace burning during the freezing winter? Or death, because one refused to pick up a stoke of wood on the Sabbath to keep their fireplace burning during the freezing winter...

I like Jesus' commandments better...He only gave two. Love God with all your heart...Love your neighbor as yourself...

And that is still nearly impossible to adhere to!

Reminds me of a quip I heard from a preacher about Christians and road rage. "Real Christians refrain from cursing, but they can be very adept at using sign language..."

God said, "observe the Sabbath, and keep it holy." Man added the laws that would kill him.

v/r

Q
 
"I like Jesus' commandments better...He only gave two. Love God with all your heart...Love your neighbor as yourself..."

Sometimes even these ones are too hard. Imagine being held to the laws and trying to keep those without grace of Jesus. I'd die for sure. I never fully appreciated the freedom Jesus gave me until I read the OT all the way through.
 
Faithfulservant said:
"I like Jesus' commandments better...He only gave two. Love God with all your heart...Love your neighbor as yourself..."

Sometimes even these ones are too hard. Imagine being held to the laws and trying to keep those without grace of Jesus. I'd die for sure. I never fully appreciated the freedom Jesus gave me until I read the OT all the way through.
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When you've experienced grace, does that lead to lawlessness?

Rom 6:1
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?

Rom 13:8-10
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Love fulfills the law, when we are reborn and love, we will not want to disobey God or harm our neghbour.

We are not justified by law, but that does not mean we can deliberately break the 10 commandments.
We all sin, but we should in humility repent, confess sin and seek forgiveness and a new heart in Jesus.
None will be sinless in this life, but that is not to say we are free to sin.

God Bless


Marc
 
The laws were established to show Israel that they could not acheive God on their own. It was preparation for the coming of the Messiah. Its not possible to get to heaven by being a follower of the law. We are sinners. The wage of sin is death. But the wonderful part of loving God with all your heart mind AND soul (not breath) is that you allow him to change you. It starts that first moment you say the sinners prayer and you are sealed with the Holy Spirit. You pray and you read the bible and God changes you. Your sins become evident. HE makes them evident. I have no doubt in my mind that My Father in heaven disciplines me when I am wrong.. and do you know that he has never ever once disciplined me or told me that I am sinning by not worshipping on Saturday?? I definitely hear it if im tempted to take that pen from the bank! OR if Im gossiping.. HE tells me.. using my conscience. I know also that letting one sin in your heart opens you up to another sin and another sin until you find yourself sinning easily and without thought. HE talks to you. What an amazing thing to be that close to God that you know his voice.

Did you not notice that the Sabbath wasnt mentioned in Romans 13:8?? If the Sabbath was the detrimental factor in eternity with God do you not think that it would have been mentioned?? Use common sense. God WANTS us to be with him that was the whole purpose of creation. Do you REALLY think that HE would withhold the warnings from Gentiles that would cause them to stumble and never quite get there?? Do you honestly believe that he holds Sabbatical followers above other men. Why do you not recognize that Jesus is the only way? You know.. If it was JUST worshipping on the sabbath I could understand. But its more than that.... Your essentially saying that yeah Jesus died on the cross for your sins so you could go to heaven..and thats not good enough.. you have to do this and this and this. Your making a mockery of the sacrifice Jesus made. Jesus is the fullfillment of the law. You are saying that Jesus died for 144,000 people. JESUS DIED FOR MANKIND! FOR ALL OF US. Do you think that he would die for us and not tell us YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THE SABBATH! HE told us to love God with all your heart your mind and your soul (not breath). and to love your neighbor as you love yourself.. these are his new commandments.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. -NKJV

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law -KJV

Is it necessary to change scripture in order to make your point??

rasell said:
When you've experienced grace, does that lead to lawlessness?

Rom 6:1
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?

Rom 13:8-10
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," ??(and whatever other commandment there may be,)??are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Love fulfills the law, when we are reborn and love, we will not want to disobey God or harm our neghbour.

We are not justified by law, but that does not mean we can deliberately break the 10 commandments.
We all sin, but we should in humility repent, confess sin and seek forgiveness and a new heart in Jesus.
None will be sinless in this life, but that is not to say we are free to sin.

God Bless


Marc
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The laws were established to show Israel that they could not acheive God on their own. It was preparation for the coming of the Messiah. Its not possible to get to heaven by being a follower of the law. We are sinners. The wage of sin is death. But the wonderful part of loving God with all your heart mind AND soul (not breath) is that you allow him to change you. It starts that first moment you say the sinners prayer and you are sealed with the Holy Spirit. You pray and you read the bible and God changes you. Your sins become evident. HE makes them evident. I have no doubt in my mind that My Father in heaven disciplines me when I am wrong.. and do you know that he has never ever once disciplined me or told me that I am sinning by not worshipping on Saturday?? I definitely hear it if im tempted to take that pen from the bank! OR if Im gossiping.. HE tells me.. using my conscience. I know also that letting one sin in your heart opens you up to another sin and another sin until you find yourself sinning easily and without thought. HE talks to you. What an amazing thing to be that close to God that you know his voice.
Click to expand...
Paul said the law was added because of transgression.
During the time in Egypt the people lost sight of what God required. They may have started worshiping idols.
So God needed to teach them.
Before that time Abraham did not need these laws because he had a better idea of what was required.

So the law was added to show the people right and wrong. But was never intended as a means of forgiveness, this came through the sacrificial system. But faith was still crucial, that is why Cain's offering was rejected and Abel's accepted.
Abraham was justified by faith.

Rom 9:30-32
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Relying on what you think God is saying to you is not a safe way of determining truth.
David did not realise his sin until Nathan rebuked him.

Did you not notice that the Sabbath wasnt mentioned in Romans 13:8?? If the Sabbath was the detrimental factor in eternity with God do you not think that it would have been mentioned?? Use common sense. God WANTS us to be with him that was the whole purpose of creation. Do you REALLY think that HE would withhold the warnings from Gentiles that would cause them to stumble and never quite get there?? Do you honestly believe that he holds Sabbatical followers above other men. Why do you not recognize that Jesus is the only way? You know.. If it was JUST worshipping on the sabbath I could understand. But its more than that.... Your essentially saying that yeah Jesus died on the cross for your sins so you could go to heaven..and thats not good enough.. you have to do this and this and this. Your making a mockery of the sacrifice Jesus made. Jesus is the fullfillment of the law. You are saying that Jesus died for 144,000 people. JESUS DIED FOR MANKIND! FOR ALL OF US. Do you think that he would die for us and not tell us YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THE SABBATH! HE told us to love God with all your heart your mind and your soul (not breath). and to love your neighbor as you love yourself.. these are his new commandments.
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The command to love our neighbour does not mean we should not love God also. Rom 13:8 does not say we should not take the Lord's name in vain, but that does not mean we can.
It is written in the context of sumbitting to authorities and paying taxes, then he says let no debt remain outstanding except the debt to love one another.

The Gentiles who had not heard of God would not be guilty, if they lived up to the light they had.
It is a deliberate rejectection of truth or willing ignorance that brings guilt
What SDA's say is that when the Sunday law comes in, everyone will have to make a choice between man's sabbbath and God's sabbath.

What makes a mockery of the cross is cheap grace. After the great sacrifice Jesus has made it is a natural responce for believers to follow His commandments.
Jesus said take up your cross and follow me.
How can we say we love Jesus and yet deliberately break the commandments?
John say if we love him we keep his commandments.

There are two extremes, legalism and antinomianism. We need a balance, we are saved by grace, but that salvation should lead to rebirth, a new creation. Not a lawless life.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. -NKJV

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law -KJV

Is it necessary to change scripture in order to make your point??
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I was quoting from the NIV, that is what it said.

God Bless


Marc
 
"Paul said the law was added because of transgression.
During the time in Egypt the people lost sight of what God required. They may have started worshiping idols.
So God needed to teach them.
Before that time Abraham did not need these laws because he had a better idea of what was required."

-Yes and he taught the Jewish people these laws...

"So the law was added to show the people right and wrong. But was never intended as a means of forgiveness, this came through the sacrificial system. But faith was still crucial, that is why Cain's offering was rejected and Abel's accepted.
Abraham was justified by faith."

-The most important thing that he was trying to show the Jewish people is that they couldnt acheive Him on thier own. The commandments were impossible to follow. He was preparing the way for the Messiah.

"Rom 9:30-32
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

-Romans 9:30-32 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." -NKJV


-Thank you.. this was just my point. They were seeking it using the law rather than faith in Jesus Christ. We are not held by the law in the OT.

"Relying on what you think God is saying to you is not a safe way of determining truth.
David did not realise his sin until Nathan rebuked him."

-Theres no "thinking" about it.. I have my faith in God speaking to me through the Holy Spirit.


"The command to love our neighbour does not mean we should not love God also. Rom 13:8 does not say we should not take the Lord's name in vain, but that does not mean we can.
It is written in the context of sumbitting to authorities and paying taxes, then he says let no debt remain outstanding except the debt to love one another."

-Yes.. Paul was referring to the 2nd table of the commandments in this verse. You were the one using it as a reference in your last post.

"The Gentiles who had not heard of God would not be guilty, if they lived up to the light they had.
It is a deliberate rejectection of truth or willing ignorance that brings guilt"

-Thats the clincher. I dont think SDA is teaching "truth" I think that they are trying to line their pockets with more church members.. did I mention that the pressure to tithe was IMMENSE? Why is it that the congregation of the church I attended was small. If the Holy Spirit was present in that church it would have been larger. I dont know how to explain it anymore than I have. Its an apostate church. On a different post I tried to say that we should agree to disagree and lets quit this pointless discussion. You are not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you.

What SDA's say is that when the Sunday law comes in, everyone will have to make a choice between man's sabbbath and God's sabbath.

-Yes Im very aware of what Ellen G White said.. Ive read the Desire of Ages. I was told pretty much that I HAD to read it when I was attending the SDA church. Its held in as high esteem as the bible is.

What makes a mockery of the cross is cheap grace. After the great sacrifice Jesus has made it is a natural responce for believers to follow His commandments.
Jesus said take up your cross and follow me.
How can we say we love Jesus and yet deliberately break the commandments?
John say if we love him we keep his commandments.

-Jesus also said the he is the way the truth and the life and that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlastinglife... YOU are making HIS sacrifice TRIVIAL. You are saying that he died for people who follow the sabbatical laws and everyone else sleeps till they are resurrected so they can go to hell. Get over yourselves. You are demeaning his sacrifice for us by saying it has stipulations.


There are two extremes, legalism and antinomianism. We need a balance, we are saved by grace, but that salvation should lead to rebirth, a new creation. Not a lawless life.

-You can never be sinless.. You can try but its impossible. Everytime you look at your neighbors wife with lust in your heart you just committed adultry.

I was quoting from the NIV, that is what it said.

-NIV is a poor version to use to study with.. Might I suggest using a NKJV?
 
This my friends is a very touchy subject that rocks the very core of Christian belief in our modern day.
I myself only can express my views and how I came to them I will try to be as accurate as possible and address as many of the questions and Ideas I have read on this subject.On the Sabbath we go back to the first and key mention to it in

Genesis 2:2,3NKJV And on the seventh day God ended his which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his which God created and made.

The key to this verse is the Blessing and the Sanctification of the seventh day it is all through out the bible the sabbath the holy day the day of rest.
Before the Ten commandments Moses had instructed the children of Israel to keep the sabbath a day of rest

Exodus 16:29 See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, there for he giveth you on the sixth day the bread the bread of two days

The ten commandments really set this day apart written in stone 94 words devoted to this day and to the connection between this holy day and our creator. In Exodus 30:26 we get an even more detailed view on Gods feeling toward the sabbath
Where for the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath throughout all their generations for a perpetual covenant (def perpetual lasting forever)

The sabbath a covenant not just a commandment a promise a blessing a sign of Gods people forever

In Psalms 89 we have what I believe to be the final word on wether the sabbath is still in effect reading the whole chapter would be wise but in short the one verse I want to bring out is verse 34

My covenant will I not break nor alter a the thing that is gone out of my lips

Jesus definitly kept the sabbath and I think we have already established that the apostles did also Paul in the 4th chapter of Hebrews makes it clear his view on the subject. More than that the apostles when deciding what to teach and require of new convents made a direct reference to learning and futhering of scriptural education to be recieved in Acts 15: 19-21

There is just so much more I could go into on the Bibles view of the sabbath I would be more than willing to challenge anyone to show me in the Bible where the sabbath has been changed ,done away with , or any other modifications.

I am the Lord thy God I change not. Malichi 3:6

I am not going into how or why the church of rome started this tradition of worship on the first day of the week. I will state this and in future posts defend my statement it was Not due to the fact Christ rose on the First day of the week (Sunday) and with that mind set I could easily say yes but he rested on the sabbath and even more so proves my view. I am not saying that. Anybody who believes Christ was crucified on Friday and raised on sunday needs to dig back in there bible and do some math 3 days and 3 nights doesnt add up
the math is do able but you have to take in account the High sabbaths or holy days involved with the passover feast but to make it short the time of death was Thursday evening with

thursday night being the first night
Friday was a Holyday and the first day in the grave
Friday night was the second night
Sabbath was the second day
Sabbath night was the third night
Sunday was the third day and the day of resurection

Study and you will find this for yourself

As far as the "new" Jesus comandments the Two love God and Love neighbor canceling the old Ten
Jesus was on very dangerous ground any deviation from doctorine or scripture would have been grounds for death the question which is the greatest comandment was a trick (mark 12:13) another way they were trying to get him to break the law. His answer was brilliant he quoted scripture word for word
Deuteronomy 6:4,5 = Mark 12:29,30
Leviticus 19:18 = Mark 12:31

I cant see that Jesus taught anywhere to deviate from the comandments of God
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fufil

But I would like to say this he taught against making changes and even not studying to find the truth when it appears your forfathers have deviated from the truth in
Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God buy your tradition?
and again in verse 9
But in vain they do worship me teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

I see so many of these type doctrines in todays church it makes me ill thinking about it.
The truth is there in black and white and in red. Read and study how and why things like the sabbath were changed it will shock and maybe even like me devistate your views on what we see today as religion (Christianity)
The information is out there right at your fingertips in this day and age there is no reason to blindly follow a man that stands behind a pulpit preaching the same doctrine his grandpa did and his grandpa did etc etc etc.

I must say this tho Doctrine does not save Jesus does. I am in a search of truth. Only because I know in my heart the more I know the truth the more I know Jesus.
I myself try to keep the sabbath it is a day I spend resting in study trying to get out of the world and closer to God I dont make it a burden I fail in alot of ways I know to live the letter of the law I also have forgiveness through Christ.
My point is The sabbath is still Gods Holy Day Has been since Creation will be Forever Isaiah 66:22,23
For as the New heavens and the new earth, which I will make , shall remain before me , saith the Lord so shall your seed and your name remain
23 And it shall come to pass that, from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord

I hope to see you there :)

to Servant
The SDA humm I know of them but I assure you my view on the sabbath comes from a study of the facts I wonder how a prophetess EGW who's prophecy's have not come to pass can hold a group together so tightly although
I claim no one but Christ :)
 
Yes I have also done an in depth study on this only because I had been involved in SDA for a short period when my bible knowledge was weak and I was frightened of what they taught. The Sabbath being the seal of God. That Sabbath keepers were the 144,000. That we didnt have souls.. They did a real trip on me. I dont think that anyone is damned by what day they worship.. I worship everyday. I am a Gentile I am not Jewish. Jesus was Jewish and he is Lord over the Sabbath and he was sinless yet broke the Sabbath. I also take comfort in the passage in Acts that says that we are not to be over burdened. If someone wants to observe the Sabbath because they feel that is the truth then I very much appreciate that. But if that person tells me Im damned because I dont, Im going to throw scriptures at him proving my own truth as I did earlier in this thread. Even by some chance that I am the one thats wrong?? God knows my heart.
 
In the beginning God set the day apart He Blessed it
Jesus Kept the sabbath
Jesus was Jewish and he is Lord over the Sabbath and he was sinless yet broke the Sabbath.
Click to expand...
?? where would you find that scripture
My question is this Can man say a church of any denomitnation in this day and age say that it is lawfull to committ adultry steal lie murder or even more say they set up an idol of (insert name here) and still be what we would call bible based.
I think any Christian reading his or her Bible would have to say no God doesnt change like that.
yet there has been a church in history that has done just that even going so far as selling indulgences (forgiveness of sins not yet committed) for gold.
At this point and time Martin Luther stepped up and said these things are not right and thus began the protestant movement it just didnt go far enough.
We have the ability today to study Gods word like no generation before us.

I did not post anything to place people back under the "burden" of the law
I posted information on a Blessing given by God from the creation that is still out there for us to enjoy today.
I see today alot of religious leaders similiar to the leaders of Jesus day
They would choke on a gnat and swallow a camel.

Go to your pastor ask is it ok to murder
as a matter of fact go thru a list of the other nine commandments
almost any leader will applaud you for keeping them
talk about the 7th day sabbath and it all changes get confused verses start fly'n around and arguements break out I dont think they should.

The sabbath should be counted a blessing it was given as a day of rest set apart just for that purpose even in Jesus day thay had twisted it around with legalism that choked a person's abillity to enjoy it as God intended.

I myself look forward to the sabbath like an overworked man looks forward to a three day weekend its my God given a day to Chill-out

I dont Know how the SDA preach the sabbath but I can tell you this My Bible refers to it as a blessing a promise that links us to our creator .

Am I sinning if I dont keep it yes am I sinning everyday in almost every aspect of my life YES am I dammed yes If I dont have Christ I would feel I was.

I myself worship everyday But I remember God himself only set aside one.

If you worship on the 1st day of the week thats fine I have no problem with that
If you worship on the first Day of the week because it is Gods replacement for the Sabbath and the Doctrine of your church and you hold to the belief that God did away with the sabbath after Christ. There I challenge you to provide me with the scripture to support that doctrine
Prove to me that God breaks his promises and his covenants. Prove to me that that when he said I am the lord thy God I change not he was lieing.
again Jesus said
But in vain they do worship me teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

One more point and I hope this doesnt cross the line I am not trying to be insulting any SDA member I would be glad to here your side of this.

Lumping things like the Sabbath and prophecy of 144,000 and tithing etc into this discussion is not fair muddles up the question of which Day
Putting in EGW prophecy of a Sunday Law going into effect is obsurd I feel we cant be sure what will happen in the future so I feel it should be discounted unless it is factual
I welcome scripture it is profitable for all doctrine I dont and wont build my beliefs on any other writings decrees or councils
 
Was Jesus a Jew? Of course, Jesus was a Jew. He was born of a Jewish mother, in Galilee, a Jewish part of the world. All of his friends, associates, colleagues, disciples, all of them were Jews. He regularly worshipped in Jewish communal worship, what we call synagogues. He preached from Jewish text, from the Bible. He celebrated the Jewish festivals. He went on pilgrimage to the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem where he was under the authority of priests.... He lived, was born, lived, died, taught as a Jew. This is obvious to any casual reader of the gospel text. What's striking is not so much that he was a Jew but that the gospels make no pretense that he wasn't. The gospels have no sense yet that Jesus was anything other than a Jew. The gospels don't even have a sense that he came to found a new religion, an idea completely foreign to all the gospel text, and completely foreign to Paul. That is an idea which comes about only later. So, to say that he was a Jew is saying a truism, is simply stating an idea that is so obvious on the face of it, one wonders it even needs to be said. But, of course, it does need to be said because we all know what happens later in the story, where it turns out that Christianity becomes something other than Judaism and as a result, Jesus in retrospect is seen not as a Jew, but as something else, as a founder of Christianity. But, of course, he was a Jew.

Was Jesus Lord of the Sabbath

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Mark 2:27-28 And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."

Luke 6:5 And He said to them, "The Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."

Did Jesus follow Gods commandments

[font=Verdana, Arial]Then God instructed the people as follows:
"I am the LORD your God, who rescued you from slavery in Egypt.
"Do not worship any other gods besides me.
"Do not make idols of any kind, whether in the shape of birds or animals or fish. You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations. But I lavish my love on those who love me and obey my commands, even for a thousand generations.
"Do not misuse the name of the LORD your God. The LORD will not let you go unpunished if you misuse his name.
"Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days a week are set apart for your daily duties and regular work, but the seventh day is a day of rest dedicated to the LORD your God. On that day no one in your household may do any kind of work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; then he rested on the seventh day. That is why the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.
"Honor your father and mother. Then you will live a long, full life in the land the LORD your God will give you.
"Do not murder.
"Do not commit adultery.
"Do not steal.
"Do not testify falsely against your neighbor.
"Do not covet your neighbor's house. Do not covet your neighbor's wife, male or female servant, ox or donkey, or anything else your neighbor owns."[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial]Exodus 20:1-17 [/font]
​
[font=Verdana, Arial]So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. For the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you through Christ Jesus from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses could not save us, because of our sinful nature. But God put into effect a different plan to save us. He sent his own Son in a human body like ours, except that ours are sinful. God destroyed sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the requirement of the law would be fully accomplished for us who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial]Romans 8:1-4 [/font]
​
[font=Verdana, Arial]"But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day," says the LORD. "I will put my laws in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial]Jeremiah 31:33 [/font]
​



Was Jesus Sinless

1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no
sin.

Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore God, even
thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an High Priest which cannot be touched with the
feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew not sin; that
we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus broke the law of the Sabbath because he IS the Lord over the Sabbath

Luke 6:1-11 Now it happened on the second Sabbath after the first* that He went through the grainfields. And His disciples plucked the heads of grain and ate them, rubbing them in their hands. 2 And some of the Pharisees said to them, "Why are you doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath?" 3 But Jesus answering them said, "Have you not even read this, what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 4 how he went into the house of God, took and ate the showbread, and also gave some to those with him, which is not lawful for any but the priests to eat?" 5 And He said to them, "The Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath." 6 Now it happened on another Sabbath, also, that He entered the synagogue and taught. And a man was there whose right hand was withered. 7 So the scribes and Pharisees watched Him closely, whether He would heal on the Sabbath, that they might find an accusation against Him. 8 But He knew their thoughts, and said to the man who had the withered hand, "Arise and stand here." And he arose and stood. 9 Then Jesus said to them, "I will ask you one thing: Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?" 10 And when He had looked around at them all, He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And he did so, and his hand was restored as whole as the other. 11 But they were filled with rage, and discussed with one another what they might do to Jesus.



13 One day some parents brought their children to Jesus so he could touch them and bless them, but the disciples told them not to bother him. 14 But when Jesus saw what was happening, he was very displeased with his disciples. He said to them, "Let the children come to me. Don't stop them! For the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 I assure you, anyone who doesn't have their kind of faith will never get into the Kingdom of God." 16 Then he took the children into his arms and placed his hands on their heads and blessed them.
17 As he was starting out on a trip, a man came running up to Jesus, knelt down, and asked, "Good Teacher, what should I do to get eternal life?"
18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked. "Only God is truly good. 19 But as for your question, you know the commandments: 'Do not murder. Do not commit adultery. Do not steal. Do not testify falsely. Do not cheat. Honor your father and mother.'"
20 "Teacher," the man replied, "I've obeyed all these commandments since I was a child."
21 Jesus felt genuine love for this man as he looked at him. "You lack only one thing," he told him. "Go and sell all you have and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22 At this, the man's face fell, and he went sadly away because he had many possessions.
23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for rich people to get into the Kingdom of God!" 24 This amazed them. But Jesus said again, "Dear children, it is very hard to get into the Kingdom of God. 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!"
26 The disciples were astounded. "Then who in the world can be saved?" they asked.
27 Jesus looked at them intently and said, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But not with God. Everything is possible with God."
​
I dont know what more I can say on this subject other than printing out the whole bible. I dont know if you read the whole thread but I used scripture to make my point. The scriptures I listed on this post was to verify my claim that Jesus was Jewish and he is Lord over the Sabbath and he was sinless yet broke the Sabbath. How can breaking the Sabbath be a sin if our Lord did it himself.​
​
 
I will also add that if you look at your neighbors wife with lust in your eyes you committed adultry.. if you look at a man with hate you are guilty of breaking the commandment to love your neighbor.. if you love something else more than God you are breaking the commandment to love only God. If you tell a lie to get out of getting in trouble with the law you are breaking that commandment. If you snatch a pen from the bank you are guilty of stealing. If you slam your finger in the door and say oh my God you are guilty of taking his name in vain. If a man rapes your wife and you wish he was dead you just committed murder.
 
I dont know what more I can say on this subject other than printing out the whole bible.
Click to expand...
LOL:)


It is one of those tricky ones. Some just see it real easy and some go into the cotton candy machine and just spin spin spin and get all sticky.:)

John
5:16And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
5:17But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. So, I guess it is sunday. Why? because that is the the only day most are able to meet and go. If we shut everything down, thousands of people relying on the hospital would literally die, then that would make someone a murderer. Everyone using an oxygen tank would have to turn it off and they would die too. But we will leave the gas and water utility on because we need hot water for the bath and it is -5 degrees outside and the pipes might freeze.;)
 
I too would it seem have to copy and paste my whole Bible
If Jesus Broke the Sabbath He Sinned and all I believe is gone
How ever if He explained that legalism is wrong and showed it is "LAWFUL"
to do well on the sabbath than I am still in good shape.

Unless asked I will debate no futher on this for fear of offending anyone (peace)

My answer to the the Original thread is
There are Christians that hold to the promise of the Sabbath not as a Salvation issue not out of legalism but as a way to draw closer to the Lord
Isaiah 58:13,14
If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath , from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath Spoken it

I feel a blessing in my life by holding on to the truth of Gods word
Sunday worship seems to have Started sometime after the Bible was written tho their are scant references to the first day of the week in the Bible

Both Days are more than capable of being used to Draw yourself closer to Christ but myself I find only one that is Blessed and ordained by God as a day of worship.
 
have to add my two cents:)

the 1st mention of any kind of sunday gathering was John 20
19Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
and one week later
26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Quite obviously, Jesus did not appear in order to rebuke His disciples for 'keeping' the wrong day!! [/font]
and it appears Paul obviously chose to preach on sunday from Acts 20
7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

[font=Arial, sans-serif]First it should always be remembered that the sabbath was given in a national scenario to people who had no access to the Holy Spirit and no explicit promise of salvation. Most christians believe things changed with Christ in 2 Corinthians 5[/font]
17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Not only have we changed but the covenant has changed also Hebrews 8
13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Jeremiah 31
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

and of course there is Colossians 3
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


But no where in the New Testament does it give a specific command for what day to worship since there is a certain freedom in Christ. His blood having released us from Old Covenant penalties/prohibitions. There could be seen a strong precedent for what would be known as the Lords Day ie sun: the day of his resurrection, the day his disciples met and he appeared to them, the day of Pentecost, the day Paul preached to other christians, the day Paul plead with the Corinthians to make a collection for christians affected by the drought in Judea, the day on which John wrote that he found himself "In the Spirit" Rev 1:10.
 
In answer to asking your pastor if its ok to murder.

John 15 12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Im sure if we follow that one we will cover most of the other ones of course thats my opinion.
 
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