No More Messiahs! Jesus PBUH will NOT be returning

[TheKhan]

So according to the Quran:

• Jesus PBUH is not returning.
• No one can live in heaven.
• And the ascension was a vision

A heavenly entity whatever that may be, maybe similar to how angels are, in that sense Jesus and Muhammad can live in heaven with God, especially according to buddhism. In that sense when and if their existence were to expire we may call it "heavenly death" in heaven (hopefully this is in the Quran, don`t know if the latter part is buddhist doctrine fyi).

But to note; "live" and "death" for a heavenly entity are different from what those words would apply to our human bodies. And obviously the verse that was quoted refers to our human bodies.

I would have to say, no record exists of a human with their human body`s living in heaven. But there should be plenty of references to the heavenly entities, most likely.

And if God can put heavenly entities in human bodies, I would assume he could do it again if God wanted to. I would like to know if Muhammad specifically said that God would not on this subject.

TK

 

[c0de]

Hey TK

What has been made clear is that the body of all of God's messengers
no different then the body of any other human being. So not angelic.
So this existence in the spiritual realm of heaven is not sanctioned
by the Quran. There is just no supporting evidence for this from the
Quranic perspective.

 

[TheKhan]

Hey TK

What has been made clear is that the body of all of God's messengers
no different then the body of any other human being. So not angelic.
So this existence in the spiritual realm of heaven is not sanctioned
by the Quran. There is just no supporting evidence for this from the
Quranic perspective.

What`s up c0de,

For reference what is the existence of "angelic" then? In the Quran.

TK

 

[c0de]

For reference what is the existence of "angelic" then? In the Quran.

It's not defined dude.

Something on a plane/dimension higher then our 3D existence most likely...

 

[TheKhan]

Well for now, I will just state that the militants are misleading.

In the long run it is more peaceful and a definite solution to hit the books in masses, unite, study and capitalize to out-maneuver all the things eventually that may cause a cry out for Jihad.

And in Islam`s situation, not be too tied in or restricted by centuries of traditions like cutting peoples heads off. Terrorism is in fact an ancient tradition from Babylon just to state how old the traditions are.

What I stated is the straight way, the real way to prepare. And again with hard work this is very much possible, and this is something that has already been accomplished by people in the Islamic regions in the past. It just needs to be brought to par again.

In the short term I can only state at this point, to identify and demolish the patterns of recruitment that are similar to that of some huge gangs that would surprise most, in how early the recruitment starts.

I would put priority in accomplishing the long term future though. As I have no idea what the solution is for places like Palestine in the short-term.

But, another industrial revolution is on its way.


TK

p.s. blood type majorities of countries.
UK, American : blood type O.
Japan, Germany : blood type A.
Middle-East : blood type B.

theories on how to view this. (blood type B according to a book I read, are the kinds of people who cross streets when the traffic lights are red when no cars are apparently coming, whereas type A`s would be waiting until the lights change no matter how apparent that no cars are coming) IMO, Type A`s get icy when they get mad, type B`s go off the scale in both directions.. Just some possible views in theory.

 

[c0de]

So according to the Quran:

• Jesus PBUH is not returning.
• No one can live in heaven.
• And the ascension was a vision

btw, I obviously meant that no human being
(with a mortal body) can live in heaven/paradise,
as it is a place for immortals.

After all God has said that Heaven/Paradise is made up
of an existence which the mind of man has not conceived,
this is why every description of paradise/heaven has been
in forms of parables.

 

[Abdullah]

Actually it does:

You tried in your last post to show that the past tense only signifies
that it is referring to those who were present on earth. Correct?.

Not exactly br, what I meant was the past tense reffered to the Prophets of the past, i.e, those that preceded the Prophet muhamamd [saw], wether all of them had died and left the earth or wether one was taking a prolonged 'ascension' into heaven and will soon return again for a final mission.

So the ONLY WAY for you to prove your case is if you somehow prove
that Jesus PBUH is alive, and is NOT on this earth..

Well I have allready cited the evidence of the Quran saying that a person...dies only once [i.e, the earth death] and we have it in the hadith that Jesus [pbuh] is going to die on his second coming, and the context and the wordings of the verse below has a strong indication in it that Jesus [pbuh] did not die when he was raised upto the heavens, for Allah mentions it immediately after saying that his enemies did not kill him:

And [on account of] their saying: "We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, messenger of God." They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. God raised him [Jesus] up to Himself. God is Almighty, All-Wise. (Qur'an, 4:157-58)

Allah tells us how He foiled the plot of the desbelievers who tried to kill Jesus [pbuh] and that He only made it seem that way [that they had killed him] to them, and that the truth is that Allah had raised him to Himself, and this is strong evidence indeed that Jesus [pbuh] is still alive as the plot was to put him to death and this is the plot Allah foiled by raising him up to Him. If jesus [pbuh] had to die in the instance Allah raised him upto Him [the same time his enemies tried to put him to death too], then in a way the enemies would have achieved their plan wether they crucified him or not, and Allah says "… God will not give the unbelievers any way against the believers" (Qur'an, 4:141)., thus this is another bit of evidence too that Jesus [pbuh] was raised upto the heavens alive.

[God said:] "Jesus, I will take you back [mutawaffeeka] and raise you up [wa raafi`uka] to Me and purify you of those who are unbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection..." (Qur'an, 3:55)

The part requiring special consideration is the sentence "I will take you back [mutawaffeeka] and raise you up to Me." A close examination reveals a most important truth: The verb carries a sense that differs from what is normally meant by "to die." The word translated into English as "to die" comes from the Arabic root waffaa derived from the verb tawaffaa, which does not imply death, but rather taking the soul, or surrender. The Qur'an also reveals that taking a person's soul does not always imply death. For instance, another verse uses tawaffaa to refer not to a person's death, but to taking his or her soul while asleep:

God takes the souls [of people] at death [yatawaffaa], and those who do not die [lam tamut] during their sleep. Those on whom He has passed the decree of death [al-mawt], He keeps back [from returning to life], but the rest He sends [to their bodies] for a term appointed. Verily in this are signs for those who reflect." (Qur'an, 39:42)
​

The word here translated as "taking back" is the same as that used in Qur'an 3:55: tawaffaa. Since a person does not actually die during the night, the word yatawaffaa here refers not to death, but to taking the soul at night. If tawaffaa were being used in the sense of death, then that would mean that all people would be biologically dead during sleep. Thus, Jesus (pbuh) would have died every night of his life. Such an assertion is both irrational and illogical.

Another instance in which sleep is regarded as a kind of death, but which does not refer to biological death, is the following hadith: "'All praise is for God, Who has made us alive after He made us die [sleep] (Al-hamdu li Allah illadhi ahyana ba'da maa amatana; wa ilayhi al-nushoo)' Our Prophet (may God bless him and grant him peace) often said this after he woke up."18 No doubt, he used these wise words not to refer to biological death when one is asleep, but rather to a sleeping person's soul being "taken." Ibn Kathir, the famous Islamic scholar and commentator, used this hadith, along with many other proofs in his commentary on Surah Al 'Imran, to explain that tawaffaa refers to sleep. In addition, he indicated the word's meaning in other verses where it appears. He then gave his opinion using a hadith handed down by Ibn Abi Hatim:

Ibn Abi Hatim says that: "My father told us … from Hassan that the meaning of the verse 'Iwill take you back...' is this: Here it means that 'I shall kill you with the death of sleep; in other words, I shall cause you to sleep.' So God raised Jesus (pbuh) to the heavens while he was asleep … As an incontrovertible truth, God caused Jesus (pbuh) to die the death of sleep and then raised him to the sky, rescuing him from the Jews, who were inflicting suffering upon him at the time."19
​

Imam Muhammad Zahid al-Kawthari, another Islamic scholar who examined the meaning of tawaffaa, stated that it did not mean death, and drew attention to the use of mawt in Qur'an 39:42:

Had Jesus (pbuh) died [which is not the case], then the word mawt revealed in the verse: "God takes the souls [of people] at death" (39:42), would not have been revealed… This is because if, as has been claimed, God had referred to normal death [in the biological sense], then this would have been clearly stated. Since God refers to the fact that the Jews did not kill Jesus (pbuh), but that he was taken and raised to the sky, then one must think of a meaning beyond that of ordinary death.20

Sheikh al-Islam Mustafa Sabri, a contemporary of al-Kawthari, cites this verse as evidence and offers the following interpretation: "If we were to take the word tawaffaa as meaning 'killing,' then souls would also have to die."21 In his commentary on the Qur'an, the Islamic scholar Mawlana Sayyid Abul A'la Mawdudi makes the following statement about mutawaffeeka, which appears in Qur'an 3:55 (the same word is also used in Qur'an 5:117):

The word mutawaffeeka, in the Arabic text comes from the word tawaffaa, meaning "to take the surrender of" and "take the soul," although here it is used in a figurative sense. Here, it means "relieving from duty."22
​

Abu Mansur Muhammad al-Maturidi, regarded as one of the first Qur'anic commentators, also stated that the verse does not refer to Jesus (pbuh) dying in the familiar biological sense:

The thing being referred to in the verse is not passing on in the sense of death, but in the sense of the body being taken from this world.23
​

Islamic scholars agree that mutawaffeeka means that Jesus (pbuh) did not die, but that he was raised to God's presence and will return to Earth. For example, the famous commentator and scholar al-Tabari stated that mutawaffeeka is used in the sense of "removing from Earth" and interpreted the verse in the following terms:

In my opinion, the soundest thing is to take this word in the sense of "to take into one's possession," "draw [away] from Earth." In that case, the meaning of the verse is: "I shall take you from Earth and into the heavens." The rest of the verse emphasizes the [believers'] victory over unbelievers in the End Times, which confirms the above idea."24
​

Further on in his commentary, al-Tabari included other interpretations of mutawaffeeka. Islamic scholars are in general agreement that its correct interpretation is "a kind of sleep." According to Imam Hasan al-Basri, the Egyptian scholar Muhammad Khalil Herras stated that the verse means: "I shall put you to sleep and raise you to My presence as you sleep." In his commentary, al-Suyuti said, based on reliable hadith, that Jesus (pbuh) did not die, and then continued:

In that case, Jesus (pbuh) was raised to the skies and will return before the Day of Judgment.25
​

read on:

JESUS (PBUH) DID NOT DIE - Harun Yahya

there is plenty more evidence in that link br and I think it may contain the general evidence of Jesus [pbuh] not dying before his ascension.

And in regards to wether Jesus [pbuh] can be taken up to the heavens while alive, the following explanation reveals an implication at the end of verse 4:158 where God pre-empted such queries and bemusement:

Another element that attracts our attention is the expression: "God raised him to Himself. God is Almighty, All-Wise" (Qur'an, 4:158). In all likelihood, this extraordinary situation shows God's superior might. (God knows best.)

In their commentaries on this verse, Islamic scholars point out that these words represent an extraordinary revelation of God's might and wisdom. For example, Fakhr al-Din al-Razi said:

God reveals at the end of the verse that "God is Almighty, All-Wise." The intention behind almightiness here is the perfection and immaculate nature of that might, and that behind wisdom is the perfection and immaculate nature of knowledge. In this way, God has indicated the raising of Jesus (pbuh) and that no matter how impossible this may seem to a person, it is not impossible relative to His might and wisdom. A similar situation can be seen in the verse: "Glory be to Him, Who took His servant on a journey by night from the Sacred Mosque [Masjid al-Haram] to the Further Mosque [Masjid al-Aqsa]…" (Qur'an, 17:1). That is because no matter how much such a journey may be impossible relative to the power of Prophet Muhammad (may God bless him and grant him peace), it is a most easy matter relative to the might of God.30
​

"There is a consensus among the community of the faithful [ijma' ummat] that Jesus (pbuh) was raised alive to the heavens."38 (Ijma' ummat refers to the agreement on this issue of those Islamic scholars who expounded upon Islamic law and lived during the same century). [ref: above link]

 

[Abdullah]

And since you have failed to prove that the Prophet went to heaven physically,.

Shaykh Abdullah Bin Bayyah [reputed to be the utmost authority on the Quran of this day and age] said regarding the Aqeedah of Imam Tahawi, in the foreward of Shaykh Hamza Yusufs translation of it, that the entire ummah concurs on this Aqeedah, i.e, that it is embraced by the entire Sunni Ummah and Shaykh Hamza Yusuf confirmed that too by saying that this Aqeedah has unprecedented acceptance by the Muslim community, i.e, that more Muslims embrace this one in it's entirety than others.

In point #39 it says: 39. Al-Mi`raj (the Ascent through the heavens) is true. The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was taken by night and ascended in his bodily form, while awake, through the heavens, to whatever heights Allah willed for him.

Tahawi Beliefs of Ahl al-Sunna

Thus we so far have the consensus of the Scholars on this and that it is an Aqeedah point, as major proofs for the Prophet [saw's] bodily ascension; there is evidence in the Quran and Sunnah [as I have shown before on the End Time Signs: The Holy Qur'an thread that there is divine protection over consensus' [i.e, that consensus can never be wrong as Allah will protect the Ummah agreeing on an error] and that the way of the consensus is the right path.

Also we have many hadiths saying things like the Prophet [saw] was lead to Jeruselem by Jibril [as], that he lead the Messengers/Prophets in prayer, that he rode on burak and ascended to the heavens, that he entered paradise, saw hell, that he met Prophets in different levels of the heavens, met Moses [pbuh] who told him to plead with Allah to lessen the numbers of the prayer untill they were taken down to five, etc, surely all that couldn't be just a 'vision' while asleep or from his home, etc,?; all of these details talk in a litteral sense... and these corrobarate that the prophet's [saw] ascension was indeed physical.

Also Allah says in the Quran that Allah showed him this 'sight' in order to test the people and we know from the tafsir that some even apostated as they couldn't believe that such a journey happened; this is further evidence I think for the physical miraj for it shouldn't be a problem really for any Muslim to believe that the prophet [saw] only had a 'vision' of all of this as even ordinary people can see 'visions' in their dreams...thus it makes sense to think that it was the physical ascension they couldn't believe [due to it's extraordinary miraculous features] thus apostating.

The Sunnipath website also says it was a bodily/physical ascension:

The Messenger of Allâh (Allah bless him and give him peace) was carried in body from the Sacred Mosque in Makkah to the Distant Mosque in Jerusalem on a horse called Al-Buraq in the company of Gabriel, the archangel. There he alighted, tethered the horse to a ring in the gate of the Mosque and led the Prophets in prayer. After that Gabriel took him to the heavens on the same horse.

Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum - Al-Isra’ and Al-Mi‘raj- SunniPath Library - Books

you have
also failed to prove that Jesus PBUH can be alive in heaven physically,
as this would contradict the part of the verse which states that all
messengers had ordinary mortal bodies (not heavenly bodies that can
live in heaven for 2000 years)..

Allah pre-empted this question in that verse as shown and I'm suprised really that knowing the power of Allah, and knowing that he indeed does work miralces on prophets/Messengers, that any muslim really can have dificulty beleving how Allah could make jesus [pbuh] or the Prophet muhammad [saw] survive physically in the heavenly realm.

Also Allah says:

Glorified be He Who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of Worship to thethe neighborhood whereof We have blessed) (Al-Israa’ 17: 1)

The above verse certainly depicts more than jsut a 'vision' for it affirms that the prophet [saw] was 'carried by night' FROM THE Inviolable Place of Worship [Masijid Al-Haram?] TO Al-Aqsa in jeruselem [Far Distant Place of Worship]

And before I finish for now on this , just a quick mention on the word 'vision' used in translation in that verse posted earlier; another translator... used the word 'sight' which brings into question wether 'vision' is the actual word used in the arabic or wether it is just a basic word to portray the meaning of the 'sight' [of the unseen and whatever the Prophet [saw] saw on the journey] which was shown to the prophet [saw]. Allthuogh the word 'vision' usually carries the connotation of a person seeing something in mind only in the english language, yet it's meaning is not restricted to that as can be seen from it's definition:

1.the act or power of sensing with the eyes; sight.2.the act or power of anticipating that which will or may come to be: prophetic vision; the vision of an entrepreneur. 3.an experience in which a personage, thing, or event appears vividly or credibly to the mind, although not actually present, often under the influence of a divine or other agency: a heavenly messenger appearing in a vision. Compare hallucination (def. 1).4.something seen or otherwise perceived during such an experience: The vision revealed its message. 5.a vivid, imaginative conception or anticipation: visions of wealth and glory. 6.something seen; an object of sight.7.a scene, person, etc., of extraordinary beauty: The sky was a vision of red and pink.

And when we put all this evidence into context, it becomes clear that the Prophet [saw's] Miraj was in person and not just a vision or not just spiritual; once again br, it seems that you are being fixated on just one word some translators have used, not taking into consideration all the other relevent evidences that brings out the correct meaning.

No brother. Nothing is of the same level of authenticity as the Quran.
The Quran is the uncreated word of God! Nothing can be its equal..

There is a difference between 'equall' and 'equally authentic' bro, for example the reports I have heard that there is a country called Russia, I know that that is a hundred percent true without a shred of doubt allthuogh i havn't been there and seen it with my own eyes [due to the fact that this is proved to me by a large number of narrators who have seen the country. This is a continuously narrated, or a mutawâtir, fact which cannot be denied or questioned], just like I know the Quran is the same Quran that was revealed to the Prophet [saw] without a shred of doubt.

How do we know that that is the same Quran that was revealed to the Prophet [saw] [and not some distorted one?]?; we know due to it's mass [mutawatir] transmission, as in the case of the example of Russia, thus due to this mutawatir evidence, we know that both these reports are a hundred percent authentic.

Regarding the promise of Allah to protect the Quran; if we never had mutawatir reports of that verse, how could we have been sure that that verse itself was not distorted?; we only know this due to the concrete intellecutal evidence of the mutawatir...; thus the Quran verses and mutawatir hadiths have the same level of authenticity [divinity is not being meant here, but only authenticity];

ofcourse in terms of differences between the hadith and the Quran, nothing equalls the Quran in this sense as the Quran is the litteral divine words of Allah [swt], while the Sunnah/authentic hadiths are unrecited revelation of Allah [i.e, those not included in the Quran] and which were put into Muhamamd [saw's] own words, thus they are not litterally Allah speaking, but they are ultimately from Allah as they are part of the divine interpretation of the Quran revealed in 'unrecited verses' to the Prophet [saw]; hope I havn't got you all confused here; there is a better and more comprehensive explanation in the following link:

See the part entitled: Two Kinds of Revelation

The Authority of Sunnah - Chapter 1

[see Mufti Taqi Usmani mention [in my post #36] that the mutawatir hadiths have the same level of authenticity as the Quran [as their based on the same type of evidence]

Also Shaykh Hamza Yusuf implies this also when he says in his translation and annotation of Imam Tahawi's Aqeedah that mutawatir hadiths have the same status as the Quran in regards to their jurisprudence and Aqeedah considerations; then he goes on to say that to reject a mutawatir hadith is akin to rejecting a verse of the Quran... [ref: The Creed of Imam Al-Tahawi, translated, introduced and annotated by Hamza Yusuf]

The reason why they have the same status as the Quran in their creedal and legal considerations, is that there can be no doubt that they are indeed said by the Prophet [saw] in the same way there can be no doubt that the Quran verses are indeed from Allah, and the Quran verry clearly obligates us to follow/obey whatever the Prophet [saw] says in regards to the Deen, and what he does say in regards to it, is ultimately from Allah:

Everything the Prophet [saw] said and done and implicitly consented to in regards to the Deen, was basically him explaining/implementing/demonstrating the Quran.

Allah says:

We have revealed to you the Zikr (Qur’ân) so that you may explain to the people what has been sent down for them.​

Thus we know it was the duty of the Prophet [saw] also to explain the meaning of the Quran to us​

Then, it is on Us to explain it. (75:19)​

The above verse shows that this Prophetic explanation, ultimately is from Allah.

And the Quran is protected by Allah Himself. Last time you tried to say that the hadith is also protected because it carries the Sunnah of the Prophet. Well, the Sunnah and the Hadith are not the same.

The Sunnah [which is the interpretation of the Quran] has been protected by perpetual practice of it by the Muslims, in memmory, and in writing as well, and that writing of it [the written and preserved documentation of the words, actions and implicit consent of the Prophet [saw] is the hadiths.

Salaam

 

[Abdullah]

Again since I don`t know the Quran, may I ask why Islam believes that Jesus will return at such a critical time. Did Muhammad specifically say so?

It is a great mystery to me, first that Muhammad states that he was the last prophet? Which implies to me that no other messenger will be sent after him.

And yet since this thread came up, I wonder why Muslims believe that Jesus a prophet is going to return.

Is this in the logic that Jesus was a messenger and not a prophet, and that is why Islam believes that Jesus will return? Because Muhammad said so?

Hi TK

Muhammed [saw] was indeed the last prophet and messenger and there is no other Prophet/Messenger coming after Him, but jesus [pbuh], allthough he has the status of a Prophet and messenger, yet he wont return as iether to the ummah of the Prophet [saw], but will return as a follower of the Prophet [saw], i.e, as one of his ummah, but he will take up the leadership of the ummah, soon after his return.

And then finally I wonder why Muhammad would state that Jesus would return, and not Muhammad himself at the end times? If Muhammad was the last prophet then logically I would assume he would be the one to return if anyone is going to return.

I think I heard in Islamic speeches that many [all?] Prophets longed to be the ummah of the Prophet muhamamd [saw] [or something like that] because we are so blessed, thus Allah is granting this great blessing to the Prophet jesus [pbuh] [dont get me wrong; all of the ummah of the Prophet [saw] or all believers put together couldn't even equall the status of one Prophet, let alone the ummah of the Prophet [saw] being better than any prophet at all, but Muhammad [saw's] shariah [divine law] is so perfect and blessed, such as we can obtain forgiveness relatively easily then other Ummahs and the Prophet [saw] being the best of creation that he is, it is a great prevelidge indeed to be one of his follower]; also this is how Allah willed it as jesus [pbuh] hasn't died yet, thus his 'life on earth' isn't finished yet; also him coming back at the end of times makes sense, as it is apt that an imposter Christ should be slayed by the real Christ

Peace

Sorry for the elementary questions (but I feel this information necessary to properly assess in my own view on what is happening according to your argument),

no probs; this is why were here; to answer questions and explain whatever is neccassary of Islam to whoever; feel free to ask as many questions as you like

TK

p.s. according to my research the practice of thinking about the returning messiah is an old one.

The Torah and Injeel [the original book revealed to the prophet jesus [pbuh] was originally revealed by Allah too and Prophets were around to who'm God was revealing his guidance to, from the time of the first man Adam [as], thus God could have told past and ancient communities too of the second coming of Christ; we do know [from the hadiths] that all Messengers warned and informed their people of the anti-Christ who will come in the last days, thus they could have informed them of the coming of the real Christ too.

 

[Abdullah]

Also Allah says:

Glorified be He Who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of Worship to the Far Distant Place of Worship the neighborhood whereof We have blessed) (Al-Israa’ 17: 1)

Sorry in my above post I made a mistake on that verse; it is correct above.

 

[TheKhan]

Hi TK

Muhammed [saw] was indeed the last prophet and messenger and there is no other Prophet/Messenger coming after Him, but jesus [pbuh], allthough he has the status of a Prophet and messenger, yet he wont return as iether to the ummah of the Prophet [saw], but will return as a follower of the Prophet [saw], i.e, as one of his ummah, but he will take up the leadership of the ummah, soon after his return.




I think I heard in Islamic speeches that many [all?] Prophets longed to be the ummah of the Prophet muhamamd [saw] [or something like that] because we are so blessed, thus Allah is granting this great blessing to the Prophet jesus [pbuh] [dont get me wrong; all of the ummah of the Prophet [saw] or all believers put together couldn't even equall the status of one Prophet, let alone the ummah of the Prophet [saw] being better than any prophet at all, but Muhammad [saw's] shariah [divine law] is so perfect and blessed, such as we can obtain forgiveness relatively easily then other Ummahs and the Prophet [saw] being the best of creation that he is, it is a great prevelidge indeed to be one of his follower]; also this is how Allah willed it as jesus [pbuh] hasn't died yet, thus his 'life on earth' isn't finished yet; also him coming back at the end of times makes sense, as it is apt that an imposter Christ should be slayed by the real Christ

Peace



no probs; this is why were here; to answer questions and explain whatever is neccassary of Islam to whoever; feel free to ask as many questions as you like




The Torah and Injeel [the original book revealed to the prophet jesus [pbuh] was originally revealed by Allah too and Prophets were around to who'm God was revealing his guidance to, from the time of the first man Adam [as], thus God could have told past and ancient communities too of the second coming of Christ; we do know [from the hadiths] that all Messengers warned and informed their people of the anti-Christ who will come in the last days, thus they could have informed them of the coming of the real Christ too.

Abdullah,

Thanks for the response, and explanation of Islamic logic on my questions. I`ve been wondering about this for a while so I have some sense of relief here.


TK

 

[TheKhan]

.. Allah tells us how He foiled the plot of the desbelievers who tried to kill Jesus [pbuh] and that He only made it seem that way [that they had killed him] to them, and that the truth is that Allah had raised him to Himself, and this is strong evidence indeed that Jesus [pbuh] is still alive as the plot was to put him to death and this is the plot Allah foiled by raising him up to Him. If jesus [pbuh] had to die in the instance Allah raised him upto Him [the same time his enemies tried to put him to death too], then in a way the enemies would have achieved their plan wether they crucified him or not, and Allah says "… God will not give the unbelievers any way against the believers" (Qur'an, 4:141)., thus this is another bit of evidence too that Jesus [pbuh] was raised upto the heavens alive. ..

I`m gonna have to go with Abdullah`s take on this issue. In the bible it never states that Jesus died in any sense what so ever either.

My personal take on this is that during the resurrection, Jesus`s human body was transformed into a different entity, IMO some where on the realms of light, and then he went to where ever he did. In that sense I guess one could call it bypassing biological death altogether. Thus he never ultimately died, yet went to where he did.

The things Jesus did prior (except raising the dead, and rising from death.. ) to the resurrection and after (except joining God), I all believe are possible for us to do in our human bodies, btw. For example moving from one location to the other physically instantaneously, although according to one person it shortens one`s biological life span. But visiting heaven is something that sounds extraordinary.

IMO, being able to hear God`s words directly from God is quite an extraordinary feat in itself, as I strongly believe that we are not able to hear him in our current state. Thus the Messengers.


TK

 

[c0de]

Abdallah + TK





@ Abdallah


Salam brother

The above verse certainly depicts more than jsut a 'vision'

Again you are ignoring the fact that God clearly calls it a vision:

Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about:
We granted the vision which We showed thee, but as a trial for men,-
as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Qur'an: We put terror (and
warning) into them, but it only increases their inordinate transgression!
Verse 60, Chapter 17

So once again you have not proven that mortal bodies
are meant to live in exist/live in heaven. And that by itself
destroys your entire argument right there. But lets go on
for the sake of discussion.

Well I have allready cited the evidence of the Quran

You know what is so amusing here? You and you scholars spend all this time
and effort trying to interpret a certain number of verses to fit your case,
but in the end, it is those very same verses which totally destroy your argument.

"and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof;
they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture;"
4:157


The Quran clearly states that no one knows how God saved Jesus PBUH
from getting crucified. However, for some unjustified reason, you and your
scholars keep on insisting that you know what happened: that God raised
Jesus PBUH physically to Himself and that he is now alive in heaven... ????
The only thing which God makes certain is that Jesus PBUH was saved.
As for how he was saved, it is clear that only God knows, and no one else.

So the Fact is: any hadith/opinion/view/belief which makes the claim that
Jesus PBUH was lifted physically to heaven is immediately contradicting this
verse, and is therefore invalid. Because God clearly states that no one knows
what happened.

Now, I also do not know what happened then, but I know one thing for sure:
That the Quran never says that Jesus PBUH is alive >now<

If jesus [pbuh] had to die in the instance Allah raised him upto Him [the same time his enemies tried to put him to death too], then in a way the enemies would have achieved their plan wether they crucified him or not,

Wrong again. Observe this verse. Notice how the promise of
punishment that God made has already been fulfilled:

003.055
(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
​

Allah pre-empted this question in that verse as shown and I'm suprised really that knowing the power of Allah, and knowing that he indeed does work miralces on prophets/Messengers, that any muslim really can have dificulty beleving how Allah could make jesus [pbuh] or the Prophet muhammad [saw] survive physically in the heavenly realm.

I have no difficulty believing that God can do anything He wants. What I have
difficulty believing is that you put so much effort into trying to prove that God
has done something which He never actually says that He did.

There is a difference between 'equall' and 'equally authentic' bro,

The mutawatir hadiths can never be equally authentic with the Quran.
The Quran was compiled and codified by the generation of the Prophet.
The mutawatir hadiths which you are referring to were not compiled until
600 years later.









@ TK

I`m gonna have to go with Abdullah`s take on this issue. In the bible it never states that Jesus died in any sense what so ever either.

My personal take on this is that during the resurrection, Jesus`s human body was transformed into a different entity, IMO some where on the realms of light, and then he went to where ever he did. In that sense I guess one could call it bypassing biological death altogether. Thus he never ultimately died, yet went to where he did.

The things Jesus did prior (except raising the dead, and rising from death.. ) to the resurrection and after (except joining God), I all believe are possible for us to do in our human bodies, btw. For example moving from one location to the other physically instantaneously, although according to one person it shortens one`s biological life span. But visiting heaven is something that sounds extraordinary.

IMO, being able to hear God`s words directly from God is quite an extraordinary feat in itself, as I strongly believe that we are not able to hear him in our current state. Thus the Messengers.

The question is not what the bible or the hadith says.
The question is: What does the Quran say?

 

[TheKhan]

The question is not what the bible or the hadith says.
The question is: What does the Quran say?

I`d rather not do this, applying the Quran as I know little. But for the sake of where this thread is, or we can take this to the Christian forum, where in the Quran does it say Jesus died? "Take back" is not the same as "death", literally. And "nor were they exempt from Death" is not the same as "Jesus died".

If I`m not mistaken, so far I`ve only seen verses that mention that death is a one time thing, Messengers had human bodies than can die, and that Jesus wasn`t killed. And we agree that our human body`s cannot enter heaven, Jesus is in Heaven of which you agree that God can accomplish anything He wishes.

So in the Quran does it specifically state that "Jesus died"? because Chapter 21: Verses 7-8 does not say Jesus died and that is what we are debating about with regards to this.

TK

 

[TheKhan]

And what is your version? Can we clarify.

Jesus will not return.
Satan is not going to appear in human form.
Only Judgment day is coming (which I still think is going to suggest a Jihad may I add).

What is your solution in saying Jesus will not return altogether?

That awaiting Judgment is the only way to go according to the Quran? I`m not being sarcastic here.

That seems like a trillion miles long ways to go to get rid of a propaganda machine of Islamic militants, by making enemies of Christians and disagreeing with a bulk of the Muslim community, not to mention the Jews.

To seek the truth maybe. But then you`d have to build a case that Jesus did die, which I don`t think you`ve connected all the dots yet.


TK

 

[Abdullah]

You are NOT answering the main question to you and
are now avoiding it altogether.

Sorry broth but i didn't see this post till now.

Where is your foundation
for the belief in the return of Jesus PBUH?

There are allusions to his return in the Quran:

among them:

{And He (the son of Mary) shall most certainly be a sign of the Last Hour. Have no doubt about it!} (43:61).

{There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them} (4:159).

And the hadith elaborates on it.

Does sopmething have to be absolutely lcear in the Quran br in order for any Sunnah evidence to be accepted regarding it? this infact is not the case at all and to the contrary, there dont even need to be a mention in the Quran for Allah to reveal something of the Deen via the Sunnah as the following evidence shows:

The Prophet [saw] ahs the authority to make laws:

...those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet whom they find written down in the Torah and the Injîl, and who bids them to the Fair and forbids them the Unfair, and makes lawful for them the good things, and makes unlawful for them the impure things, and relieves them of their burdens and of the shackles that were upon them. So, those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him- they are the ones who acquire success. (7:156-157)... (7:156-157)

In the above verse we can see that Allah relates that a function of the Prophet [saw] is to 'makes lawful for them the good things, and makes unlawful for them the impure things', this is different and distinct from the 'bids them to the Fair and forbids them the Unfair' for the latter refers to something that ahs allready been made fair and unfair and the former is 'making' laws that are not established yet, thus from this verse there is a verry strong indication that the Prophet [saw] not only was authorised to establish laws revealed in the Quran, but to make laws himself that are not revealed in the Quran, and ofcourse the laws he himself makes is ultimately revealed by Allah too in the 'unrecited verses'.

The verse goes on to say "...So, those who believe in him...", indicating that it is essential to bleeive not only the allready established laws [the Quran], but what the Prophet [saw] 'makes' as well.

The verse also says '...and follow the light that has been sent down with him...' so here instead of Allah saying 'follow the Quran', Allah says, 'follow the light', thus indicating here that we are to follow the complete guidance sent to Him, iether through the recited verses [the Holy Quran] or the unrecited verses [the Sunnah]

Fight those who do not believe in Allâh and the Hereafter and do not hold unlawful what Allâh and His Messenger have made unlawful. (9:29)​

The above verse makes claer that the authority to make something lawfull and unlawfull does not rest with Allah alone, but with the Prophet [saw] too for Allah says, do not hold unlawful what Allâh AND HIS MESSENGER have made unlawful.

So this verse obligates us to follow/obey what comes from Allah [the Quran] and from the messenger [saw] [the Sunnah]...

No believer, neither man nor woman, has a right, when Allâh and His Messenger decide a matter, to have a choice in their matter in issue. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error. (33:36)​

'Decisions' are not exclusive to Allah, but also extend to the Prophet [saw] too, as the above verse shows...​

Whatever the Messenger gives you, take it; and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it. (59:7)​

The abvoe verse is general in it's meaning, thus it is not only restricted to the Holy Quran, and this obligates us to obey/follow the Sunnah too; wether any thing of the Sunnah ahs a direct rererence to it in the Quran, or just allusions, or no mention at all, yet every part of the Sunnah is indirectly related to this verse, thus the basis of adhering to nay part of the Sunnah ahs a basis in the Quran; the following hadith clarifies this further:

A woman from the tribe of Asad came to ‘Abdullah ibn Mas’ûd (

) and said, “I have come to know that you hold such and such things as prohibited. I have gone through the whole Book of Allâh, but never found any such prohibition in it.”
‘Abdullah ibn Mas’ûd (

) replied, “Had you read the Book you would have found it. Allâh Almighty says: “Whatever the Messenger gives you, take it; and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it.” (59:7). (Ibn Mâjah)

But no, by your Lord, they shall not be (deemed to be) believers unless they accept you as judge in their disputes, then find in their hearts no adverse feeling against what you decided, but surrender to it in complete submission. (4:65)​

the above verse is self explanatory; the 'Sunnah' context is reffered to here too ofcourse.

They say, “we believe in Allâh and the Messenger, and we obey.” Then, after that, a group of them turn away. And they are not believers. And when they are called to Allâh and His Messenger that he may judge between them, suddenly a group of them turn back. But if they had a right, they come to him submissively! Is it that there is sickness in their hearts? Or are they in doubt? Or do they fear that Allâh may be unjust towards them, and His Messenger? Nay, but they are the unjust. All that the believers say when they are called to Allâh and His Messenger that he (the Messenger) may judge between them, is that they say, “We hear and we obey.” And they are those who acquire success. And whoever obeys Allâh and His Messenger and fears Allâh and observes His Awe, such are those who are the winners. (24:47-52)​

Again [taking the Quran and Sunnah context into consideration] self explanatory]

So borther, there is overwhelimng and decivie proof that we are to obey the Prophet [saw] as well as Allah [and obeying the prophet saw is obeying Allah too] and that our Deen [religion] consists of not only the Quran, but the Sunnah too, wether it has any direct reference to any part of it, or just allusions, or even just indirectly conected to the above mentioned verse [59:7]; here are more of the Sunnah that has no reference in the Quran at all apart from verse 59:7...:

The Holy Qur’ân says:

And We did not appoint the Qiblah on which you were earlier, but that We might know the people who follow the Messenger as distinct from those who turn back on their heels. (2:143)

the order to follow the earlier Qiblah [Jeruselem] is nowhere to be found in the Quran and in the above verse Allah makes it clear that He appointed the earlier Qiblah; so there we see evidence of unrecited [that which does not form part of the Quran] verses being revealed to the Prophet [saw] with guidance for the religion; also Allah makes it clear that He appointed that qiblah in an unrecited verse, to see who will follow the messenger and who will turn their back saying things like, "we dont see that in the Quran", thus here we see a wisdom of Sunnah that has no reference in the Quran other than indirectly being related to verse 59:7, or in just allusions...

Allâh has certainly helped you at Badr while you were weak. So, fear Allâh so that you may be grateful. When you (O Prophet) were saying to the believers, ‘Shall it not suffice you that your Lord shall aid you with three thousand angels being sent down? Why not? If you observe patience and fear Allâh and they come to you in this their heat, your Lord shall aid you with five thousand angels having distinct marks?’ And Allâh did not make it but a good news for you so that your hearts might be satisfied. And there is no help except from Allâh, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (3:123-126)

in the above verse we can see that the 'good news' of the help of the angles at the time of Badr, was attributed to Allah, but this news is nowhere to be found in the Quran; in other words, no such verse was revealed in the Quran at the time of the battle of Badr giving tidings that angels are going to assist in the battle..., so this is further evidence of 'unrecited verses' revealed to the Prophet [saw]

And when Allâh promised you that one of the two groups shall be for you. (8:7)

In the above verse we can see that Allah promised the victory of muslims over iether the commerical van led by Abu Jalh [this is the contextual interpretation], or the army of makkan desbeleivers; the muslims won over the latter; this promise of Allah is nowhere to be found in the Quran; this promise was given by the Prophet [saw] without any reference to any Quranic verses [no such verses had been revealed at that time; thus here is more evidence of 'unrecited verses'.

Move not your tongue with it in order to hasten it. It is on Us to gather it (in your heart) and to recite it. So, when We read it, follow its reading. Then it is on Us to explain it. (75:16-19)

the above verse makes it absolutely clear that other then just the recitation of the Quran, there is an explanation of it as well and after Allah had revealed the Quranic verses, THEN He explained them to the Prophet [saw].

And Allâh has revealed upon you the Book and the wisdom, and has taught you what you did not know and the grace of Allâh upon you has been great. (4:113)

in that verse the 'wisdom' has been mentioned as seperate from the 'Book' [the Quran], thus here is further evidence that an external meaning of the Quran was taught to the prophet [saw] too.



there are more examples in following link:

The Authority of Sunnah - Chapter 1

. It can not be considered an article of faith.

Well I dont know about 'article of faith br, for we know that as the six articles dotn we?, i.e, Belief in Allah, the angles, the revealed Books, the Messengers, the Hereafter/resurrection/day of Judgement, predestination, that all good and bad is by Allah's decree.

I think Aqeedah may be elaborations of the third and fourfth aritcles of faith, i.e, beleif in Allah's book the hoyl Quran, and beleif in the prophet [saw] and his authority, the Sunnah.

Aqeedah are the essential beliefs of faith, if one rejects them then they dont neccassarily turn kuffar but they do turn ahlul biddah; certain points of the Aqeedah however may or will put one outside the folds of Islam such as rejection of the point that Allah [this one obviously will] is one without partners, or something that is based on a verry clear and decicive verse of the Quran [and which there is an absolute consensus on] or points that are based on mutawatir hadiths...

In the last point of the Aqeedah it says:

105. This is our religion and it is what we believe in, both inwardly and outwardly, and we renounce any connection, before Allah, with anyone who goes against what we have said and made clear. We ask Allah to make us firm in our belief and seal our lives with it and to protect us from variant ideas, scattering opinions and evil schools of view such as those of the Mushabbiha, the Mu`tazila, the Jahmiyya, the Jabriyya, the Qadariyya, and others like them who go against the Sunna and Jama`a and have allied themselves with error. We renounce any connection with them and in our opinion they are in error and on the path of destruction. We ask Allah to protect us from all falsehood and we ask His Grace and Favour to do all good.

the word 'Jama`a' above means, 'mainstream'

Salam

 

[Abdullah]

Abdallah + TK





@ Abdallah


Salam brother


Again you are ignoring the fact that God clearly calls it a vision:

Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about:
We granted the vision which We showed thee, but as a trial for men,-
as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Qur'an: We put terror (and
warning) into them, but it only increases their inordinate transgression!
Verse 60, Chapter 17

So once again you have not proven that mortal bodies
are meant to live in exist/live in heaven. And that by itself
destroys your entire argument right there. But lets go on
for the sake of discussion.


You know what is so amusing here? You and you scholars spend all this time
and effort trying to interpret a certain number of verses to fit your case,
but in the end, it is those very same verses which totally destroy your argument.

"and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof;
they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture;"
4:157


The Quran clearly states that no one knows how God saved Jesus PBUH
from getting crucified.

Alikum salaam br,

And [on account of] their saying: "We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, messenger of God." They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. God raised him [Jesus] up to Himself. God is Almighty, All-Wise. (Qur'an, 4:157-58)

the 'Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture'. part of the verse refers to those who disagree that Jesus [pbuh] was not killed; the context of the verse shows this; Allah mentions in the verse of those who say "We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, messenger of God.", then after Allah clarifying that they did not kill him nor crucify him, Allah says 'Those who argue about him are in doubt about it...' and this context carries the strong indication that Allah is reffering to those former type of people He just reffered to that think they killed him [or that he was killed...], for He mentions the aforementioned part after saying 'They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them', thus the verry strong indication is there that the people who Allah is reffering to is those that argue that he wasn't saved from killing and crucifixion and that he was killed and crucified; this context is verry strong indeeed in the verse br.

Also, the words, 'Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture' indicates here that Allah is talking about the desbelievers [Christans? and jews], for in other verses Allah clarifies that it is the desbelievers that have no real knowledge and only follow conjecture:

010.036
PICKTHAL: Most of them follow not but conjecture. Assuredly conjecture can by no means take the place of truth. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do.
SHAKIR: And most of them do not follow (anything) but conjecture; surely conjecture will not avail aught against the truth; surely Allah is cognizant of what they do.

“Were they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief.” (The Holy Qur’aan, Chapter 52, Verses 35-36)

'no firm beleif' again indicates they just follow conjecture

“And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allaah’s Path. They follow nothing but conjecture, and they do nothing but lie.” (The Holy Qur’aan, Chapter 6, Verse 116)

Most of the people of earth are the non-Muslims thus the above verse refers to them

Imam As-Suyuti and his teachers tafsir interprets it as:

And for their saying, boastfully, ‘We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God’, as they claim: in other words, for all of these [reasons] We have punished them. God, exalted be He, says, in repudiating their claim to have killed him: And yet they did not slay him nor did they crucify him, but he, the one slain and crucified, who was an associate of theirs [the Jews], was given the resemblance, of Jesus. In other words, God cast his [Jesus’s] likeness to him and so they thought it was him [Jesus]. And those who disagree concerning him, that is, concerning Jesus, are surely in doubt regarding, the slaying of, him, for some of them said, when they saw the slain man: the face is that of Jesus, but the body is not his, and so it is not he; and others said: no, it is he. They do not have any knowledge of, the slaying of, him, only the pursuit of conjecture (illā ittibā‘a l-zann, is a discontinuous exception) in other words: ‘instead, they follow conjecture regarding him, that which they imagined [they saw]’; and they did not slay him for certain (yaqīnan, a circumstantial qualifier emphasising the denial of the slaying).

Altafsir.com – The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

thus from that we can see that it refers to people who argue that he was indeed killed...

Tafsir Ibn Kathir says:


(and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture.) referring to the Jews who claimed to kill `Isa and the ignorant Christians who believed them. Indeed they are all in confusion, misguidance and bewilderment. This is why Allah said,


(For surely; they killed him not.) meaning they are not sure that `Isa was the one whom they killed. Rather, they are in doubt and confusion over this matter.

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Abdullah]

Wrong again. Observe this verse. Notice how the promise of
punishment that God made has already been fulfilled:

003.055
(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.​

Believer [who follow their Prophets] are ofcourse above the desbelievers broth, till the end of time [and even in the hereafter], and that is what Allah is essentially saying there; that the followers of Jesus [pbuh] will be above the desbelievers till the last day, as can be seen from the tafsir:

And mention, when God said, ‘O Jesus, I am gathering you, seizing you, and raising you to Me, away from the world without death, and I am cleansing you of, removing you far away from, those who disbelieved, and I am setting those who follow you, those Christians and Muslims who believed in your prophethood, above those who disbelieved, in you, namely, the Jews, becoming above them through [definitive] argument and the sword, until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me shall be your return, and I will decide between you, as to what you were at variance about, as regards religion.

Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

​

The mutawatir hadiths can never be equally authentic with the Quran. The Quran was compiled and codified by the generation of the Prophet. The mutawatir hadiths which you are referring to were not compiled until 600 years later.

there is a great misconception regarding when the hadiths were written or compiled broth; ofcuorse some hadith Scholars like Bukhari and Muslim may have compiled theirs in the following generations after the death of the Prophet [saw], but the hadiths were in writing form from the time of the Prophet [saw] too; Mufti Taki Usmani provides many proofs of this in the last chapter in the followink link:

The Authority of Sunnah - Chapter 3

Here are some excerpts from it:

The Book of Sadaqah
The Holy Prophet (

) has dictated detailed documents containing rules of Sharî’ah about the levy of Zakâh... The text of this document is available in several books of ahâdîth like the Sunan of Abu Dâwûd

the Holy Prophet (

) dictated a detailed book to Ubayy ibn Ka’b...
This book, besides some general advices, contained the rules of Sharî’ah about purification, salâh, zakâh, ‘ushr, hajj, ‘umrah, jihâd (battle), spoils, taxes, diyah (blood money), administration, education, etc. Certain extracts of this book are found in the works of hadîth.

[the Prophet [saw] dictated other books too, see link]

the Mufti finishes this section by writing: "These are only a few examples..."

...Abu Hurairah (

) took him to his home and showed him “many books” containing the ahâdîth of the Holy Prophet (

). [Jâmi’ Bayân-ul-‘Ilm; Fath-ul-Bâri] ...a number of his pupils had prepared several scripts of his narrations.

...‘Abdullâh ibn ‘Amr... compiled a big script and named it “As-Sahîfah as-Sâdiqah” (The script of truth). ...This script remained with his children. His grandson, ...

Sayyiduna Anas ibn Mâlik (

)...heard a large number of ahâdîth and wrote them down.

Sayyiduna ‘Ali (

) ...says,

I have not written anything from the Holy Prophet (

) except the Holy Qur’ân and what is contained in this script. [Sahîh Bukhâri- Book of Jihad]​

Imâm Bukhâri has mentioned this script at six different places of his Sahîh. ...this script was substantially large and it consisted of ahâdîth about qisâs (retaliation), diyah (blood money), fidyah (ransom), rights of the non-Muslim citizens of an Islamic state, some specific kinds of inheritance, zakâh rules pertaining to camels of different ages, and some rules about the sanctity of the city of Madînah.

And there are more proofs in that link of hadith books by more companions of the prophet [saw]

at the end of this section too he says:

"These are only a few examples which are neither comprehensive nor exhaustive"

He says about books compiled in the generation of the Tabieen [immediate generation after the companions of the prophet saw]:

This proves that the first book of ahâdîth arranged in a regular manner appeared in the very first century. Another book was written by Hasan al-Basri (d.110) in which he compiled ahâdîth containing any explanations or commentaries of the Holy Qur’ân [Tadrîb ar-Râwi]. This was also a regular book written on a particular subject which appeared in the first century.

several books of ahâdîth were prepared and spread all over the country.

Ibn Shihâb az-Zuhri was one of the pioneers of the compilation of hadîth in this period. He has written a number of books.

All these books and scripts written in this period were afterwards included in the larger books of hadîth written later on

...It proves that the books of the Tâbi’în were included and were thus made part of the later books of hadîth, with all necessary precautions by which they can safely be relied upon.

Then... the Mufti mention 19 books compiled in the first century and 40 books in the second.

Then he mentions the books still available now in written form from the second century; he alltogether mentions 16 [lets take into account their vollumes too]

then he says "This list is by no means exhaustive"

Thus we can see that whatever books were writtern on hadith [such as the canonical six] were based on earlier books...

Some verry meticulous effort went into preserving ahadiths and the following link explains the Science Of Hadith

Salaam

 

[c0de]

TK + Abdallah




@ TK

where in the Quran does it say Jesus died?

So anyone who is not stated to have died in the Quran
is alive???? The fact is that a person's dying is ordinary.
It does not need to be stated in holy scripture to be proven.
But a person's staying alive for 2000 years in heaven, that
requires a little faith does it not? So because Abdallah says
that this is such an important article of "aqeedah", I ask, where
does it state that Jesus PBUH is alive (in the Quran?)

And what is your version? Can we clarify.

Here: http://www.interfaith.org/forum/the-end-times-the-quran-9941.html
Part 5: The Meaning of the Myth












@ Abdallah

Salam

Brother why do you post so much information
when you can easily summarize your argument
down to a few sentences???

Quality over Quantity rite????

There are allusions to his return in the Quran:

You can not use "allusions" to support your point without
first providing a >foundation< for them in the Quran.
And because your foundation lies outside the Quran,
these "allusions" are not allusions at all, but become
>manipulations<

The main part of you belief comes from the Hadith.
And you are using manipulated meanings of some verses
to support those hadiths. This is all that is happening here.

Aqeedah are the essential beliefs of faith, if one rejects them then they dont neccassarily turn kuffar but they do turn ahlul biddah;

yea sure.... but thats according to your creed, and your sect.
I do not have a sect. I don't need your aqeedah.
I believe in the Quran and Sunnah and call myself
a Muslim (just a Muslim, not a sunni or shia or whatever).

the 'Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture'. part of the verse refers to those who disagree that Jesus [pbuh] was not killed;

No, it clearly refers to all of humanity.

"Those who argue about him are in doubt about it."

You and your scholars are arguing about what happened to him,
I am not. I am plainly saying I do not know what happened to
him on that day... What I am saying is that the Quran is not saying that
he is alive >today< And this is a plain and simple fact.

Believer [who follow their Prophets] are ofcourse above the desbelievers broth, till the end of time [and even in the hereafter], and that is what Allah is essentially saying there; that the followers of Jesus [pbuh] will be above the desbelievers till the last day,

Wrong again. It clearly means that the Christians will be made
superior to the Jews until the day of resurrection. A promise that
has already been fulfilled, so the punishment carried out.

there is a great misconception regarding when the hadiths were written or compiled broth; ofcuorse some hadith Scholars like Bukhari and Muslim may have compiled theirs in the following generations after the death of the Prophet [saw], but the hadiths were in writing form from the time of the Prophet [saw] too; Mufti Taki Usmani provides many proofs of this in the last chapter in the followink link:

But this proccess was not perfect. Many hadiths were forged, and
this is an undisputed fact. Unlike the Quran which was standardized
and its copies spread out over all the world, in one standard form,
making it completely safe from any charges of manipulation, such
manuscripts of Hadiths were nothing in comparison to the Quran.

 

[soleil10]

Unfortunately many do, even though the Quran does not support it.

I am happy to hear that because, it does not make any sense

The concept of "turn the other cheek" was very much part of Islam while the Muslims were living in Mecca and faced sever torture and persecutions from their oppressors, just as when Jesus PBUH and his followers lived in Jerusalem. While the two Prophets shared the same circumstances, the commandment of God to them both remained the same. Muslims were commanded to be patient, and the Prophet asked forgiveness for his enemies. Never once did he ask God to punish them.

However, when the Prophet and his few followers migrated to Medina, they were now the leading members of a city-state. This point never came in the ministry of Jesus (PBUH). The point at which the command to defend themselves was given, the Muslims were facing genocide. Not only should life be defended because life is sacred, but also because the mission of the Prophet was the delivery of the Quran, God's final revelation to mankind, and this purpose had to be completed.

Can you give me references to verses in the Koran that support "loving your enemy". I can go and look myself. You do not have to type them.
I heard recently that one of the son of the Hamas leader converted to Xstianity because he had never heard of the concept of "loving your enemy"