Genuine Question To Theists Part 2 :)

wil said:
What I still as yet can't fathom. If you believe it all to be fantasy, and we are happy with it, why do you have this need to piss in our cereal?

I'm not. I didn't realise this place was for theists only. I am asking questions.

You said before we don't affect you personally, we beleivers must, as it irritates you so. Is it jealousy?
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:rolleyes: Hardly.
 
Dondi said:
Contraire, the bible does explain certain aspects of heaven:

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." - Revelation 22:1-4

It's that last verse that seems to have the most attraction for people.

I could quote a lot more verses about heaven if you wish.
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No, that's fine, thanks.

Btw, the Lord's Prayer - Thyne shall be done on earth as it is in heaven.

To me that reads like we should all be trying to recreate a 'heavenly' place, right here and now.

Just a thought.
 
enlightenment said:
I'm not. I didn't realise this place was for theists only. I am asking questions.
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The section you are posting in is:
Abrahamic Religions Neutral discussion area for topics that cross-over between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
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on the sight of Interfaith Forum at InterFaith.org so you think the purpose of the site is to ridicule, but not offend (as you stated) those who have belief in G!d or beliefs that differ from yours?

You are asking questions? To what end? To expand your awareness of Christianity? To learn more about the belief and your connection to G!d? To increase your understanding of the differences between the religions?
 
wil said:
The section you are posting in is:
on the sight of Interfaith Forum at InterFaith.org so you think the purpose of the site is to ridicule, but not offend (as you stated) those who have belief in G!d or beliefs that differ from yours?

You are asking questions? To what end? To expand your awareness of Christianity? To learn more about the belief and your connection to G!d? To increase your understanding of the differences between the religions?
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So.

Let me get this right.

I am not permitted to post in this section, is that what you are stating?

Is that a rule?

And the reason I ask questions, is because I want to know things, and perhaps compare the answers here to what other theists have told me.

I don't personally see what is wrong in that, but if you are stating I am not ALLOWED to post in this section, then whatever...:rolleyes:
 
enlightenment said:
No, that's fine, thanks.

Btw, the Lord's Prayer - Thyne shall be done on earth as it is in heaven.

To me that reads like we should all be trying to recreate a 'heavenly' place, right here and now.

Just a thought.
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Absolutely.

As I explained in a previous post concerning harmony, for their to be peace, we all must be of the same mind, cooperating toward a common goal. By submitting ourselves to God, i.e. they will be done on earth as it is in heaven, we are anticipating the kingdom of heaven here and now. We are to strive to live peacable among men, teach the kingdom of God to others, that they might see the goodness of God and a taste of what heaven will be like here and now.
 
Dondi said:
Luke 10




Nick A.

Thanks for quoting this scripture. It's only then third time in two pages. I think enlightenment will get it this time.
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But you left out the critical part. Who did Jesus say is a neighbor for a Christian or one professing to be one? Now of course a fantasy Christian in name only that is as abusive as anyone else will have neighbors similar to themselves. Jesus' meaning however is specific.
 
enlightenment said:
The more religous a nation, the more the collective intellect is stifled.
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you do like the grand, sweeping generalisations, don't you? well, i think judaism certainly gives the lie to that theory.

If a population live their life by what are a bunch of unfounded, unsubstantiated, and unproven stories
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so you think that the Torah, for example, contains no universally useful moral imperatives, such as the law of "pe'ah" - leaving a portion of the harvest for the poor, or tithing, or "ba'al taschit" - prohibiting the destruction of the natural world, or "you shall love your neigbour as yourself"? i think that's rather an extreme position to take, frankly.

I once asked a Christian women if a good man could go to heaven, after death, to which she replied in the negative.
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so, because you talk to one ignorant extremist, you extrapolate from that to all religious people? now *that's* scientific.

Your crime?

You were a lovely fella, but refused to bow to the idea of a supernatural creator, and believe in some words in various books
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you'd be fine under the noahide laws.

Meantime, it is feasible that if a man killed several times, but repented and 'found god', that HE would be spared the same fate, and might even have the chance to enter heaven.
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now for us, without "true repentance", this would not be possible. and true repentance would involve restitution ON EARTH, in other words making good what you did wrong. only once you do that can you even get in the queue for being forgiven by G!D. G!D Is not a "get out of jail free" card, or a "blank cheque" as i once memorably heard that idiot nicky gumbel (of the "alpha course") say - now *that* got me shouting at the TV. nincompoop.

I am amazed that more theists do not use their critical thinking skills to determine just how illogical and unfair that sounds, then reject it, for that is the only thing it is worth, imo.
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so am i. fortunately the more enlightened do just that.

However, who is to say how things would have evolved had Islam never came about? Or Christianity? Or Judaism?
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well, couldn't you say the same thing about, i don't know, philosophy? except, for some reason, no-one ever does.

But, hey, make an appearance, on a more regular basis.

Now might be a good time.
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well, last time Divine Intervention actually took place, the minutes of the meeting (see BT bava metzia 59b, the story of the oven of akhnai) reflect that the sages actually told G!D to bugger off and stop interfering because they were more than capable of sorting it out between themselves, at which point G!D is reported to have Said, in effect "My children have become adults!" - although, obviously, we don't always act like it.

Well, for example, to Christians, Jesus was not only a prophet but the son of god.

To Muslims, I beleive they recognise him as a prophet, but NOT the son of god, and to Christians that failure of recognition is sinful.

Only of them them can be right.

Either he was the son of a supernatural entity called god, as Christians believe.

Or he wasn't.

Both cannot be correct at one time, see.

That would be like saying that we are both taller than one another!
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i take your point, of course. however, this argument cannot be used with reference to judaism because the Torah does not (in our opinion) refer to either of these people; you will note, nonetheless, that they both agree that the Torah is Divine Revelation, which is, ironically enough, probably the only thing all three agree on! i don't use that as a "we're right and you're wrong" argument, though, because i've never really seen the point of that and in any case we're not universalist in terms of "who is right".

A blind faith, based on the word of man, written a long time ago, when many things were not understood, in a culture which would be alien to us today.
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well, i still live in the culture concerned and i don't think my faith is "blind" at all. why don't you provide an example of one of these things from judaism and we can get specific?

Ten commandments. I thought it was ten. Not two. Or over 600. Please elaborate.
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the ten is a group, but there are actually 613 commandments that can be extracted from an analysis of the Torah, of which only seven apply to everyone and the other 606 to jews (an interesting aside: ruth, the paradigmatic convert, has a name whose value is 606, reflecting the extra number she took on when she became jewish) - the two are merely the ones which are referenced in that for-once-relevant comment by simone weil.

What does heaven look like? Indeed, what is it like.

In fairness, they usually answer that they don't know.
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judaism famously can't make up its mind about what is meant by "inherit a portion in the World to Come", which, incidentally "the righteous amongst the nations" (i.e. good people who aren't jewish) will, the standard for this, of course, being the noahide laws.

So.

Let me get this right.

I am not permitted to post in this section, is that what you are stating?

Is that a rule?
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er... no, read the CoC. those are the rules. it's more a question of good manners and civility and not presuming explicitly or implicitly, from the get-go, that the people you are talking to are naive, foolish or ignorant.

Resigned said:
Let's be honest. Religions don’t coerce their adherents via promises of free thinking and individualistic expression, they use fear.
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nonsense. only in an environment where the *government* enforces punishment for apostasy can this be said to take place. the rest of it is merely social controls which can be resisted by anyone who is sufficiently determined and prepared to relinquish the benefits of communal involvement. certainly since spinoza this has not been the case in western europe at least.

What better way for an elite ruling class to coerce conformance from the toiling masses than to threaten them with such things as burning flesh, eternal damnation and eternal pain.
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so what about judaism, where these things are not considered?

teaching the doctrine of the religion is inerrant even in the face of overwhelming proof contrary to the religious doctrine
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ever heard of the "maimonidean controversy"?

Jewish principles of faith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Have you ever had Atheists knock on your door and hand out pamphlets and literature describing their… well…. Lack of any religious doctrine to invite you to?
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well, although i'm not obliged to read his books, which are explicit that they aim to "convert" believers to atheism using science (as if, i love science!) my mandatory licence fee to the bbc apparently finances the making of documentaries for richard dawkins to attack religion through the TV in my front room. there's also now a very amusing and high-profile "atheist bus" advertising campaign going on in london. personally, i think it's all part of free speech, so no problem with that, but, well, it does rather make nonsense of your question.

Dream said:
It seems naive to me to say that getting rid of religions by restricting their speech can make a positive difference in the long run. Far better to allow ideas to run free and let the best ideas win. God save the Queen.
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indeed!

Nick_"Simone Says"_A said:
If you did live your religion consciously you would not get the satisfactions you do from all your negative expressions and attitudes. You use words without understanding their meaning.
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what, you mean like "secularism", where the only one who agrees with your meaning is you? don't make me laugh. for someone who seems at pains to point out how transcendent their concerns are, you are curiously concerned with preaching to me about how i ought to perceive and act without demonstrating any evidence that you actually know anything about me at all, inner or outer world. still, it's encouraging that you can at least recognise that when you are arrogant to other people you get it reflected right back at you.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
enlightenment said:
So.

Let me get this right.

I am not permitted to post in this section, is that what you are stating?

Is that a rule?

And the reason I ask questions, is because I want to know things, and perhaps compare the answers here to what other theists have told me.

I don't personally see what is wrong in that, but if you are stating I am not ALLOWED to post in this section, then whatever...:rolleyes:
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I was responding to your question whether atheists were allowed to post here.

I indicated that it appeared by your comments that your purpose in discussion was to convince believers in G!d that G!d did not exist, that we live in a fantasy, that we are hoping to live everafter in a fantasy land, and none of it makes sense.

Am I incorrect in this regard? You have also stated that while your comments are deemed offensive by many...you don't intend to offend. This site, interfaith, is by its name for people of faith to discuss their faith with others and learn more about each other.

What faith is atheist, and how would you like to live with theists in harmony is what I guess would determine whether your particiipation is appropriate.
 
Orthodox Jews believe that the state of Israel is actually forbidden in the Torah.

Is that true or false?
 
Depends on the group. The majority do not believe that.
 
Sorry, that's the satmar site, not neturei karta. They're not so fringe as NK but still in the minority.
 
bananabrain said:
incidentally, they also think that the internet is forbidden by the Torah, yet oddly enough they seem to have a very well-organised website.

b'shalom

bananabrain
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Does it say that, in the Torah?

That the internet is forbidden?

:p
 
wil said:
Again, maybe you can assist us in understanding why atheists tend to circulate the radical, fringe, thought and think it normal?
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Lol, now whose turn is it to use sweeping generalisations?

PMSL.

:D
 
enlightenment said:
Lol, now whose turn is it to use sweeping generalisations?

PMSL.

:D
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I don't know what PMSL means. Maybe then you can tell us where you got the information that those sites were valid and why you use them? And yes I do use this generalisation. Of the atheists I know that are rabid about proving the bible wrong, they tend to focus on radical liiteral views to prove their point. You have a number of times. Hence my comment.
 
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