Atheism in Hinduism

[Snoopy]

Urgh! It tastes like mud! Even my qualia are whacked! {Looks like this might a bumpy ride!}

Huh? So why are you eating it then??!!

 

[radarmark]

Aupmanyav: "Zero-point Energy. Space is energy/mass. Time also is somehow involved - acceleration changes mass - we may not know exactly how."
Originally Posted by Aupmanyav
Zero-point Energy. Space is energy/mass. Time also is somehow involved - acceleration changes mass - we may not know exactly how.

SG: "Radarmark! Need your input on this!"

'Tis all metaphysics. ZPE is the ground state energy of a particular quantum system. Vacuum energy would be the overall ZPE of the entire universe. It is not the same as space (except by interpretation) and is certainly not the same as time. All of this depends on if you accept a materialist explanation (the Kosmos is only mass/energy), if one accepts the Physical Reality of field theory, "Standard" Quantum Theory, and ignore gravity.

A good many physicists do not accept it as "real" but only a artifact of the math. In general, the Copenhagen Interpretation, multi-verse theories, and deBroglie-Bohm theories do not require it (see Conclusion of the following, sorry it is so dense).
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/2013/1/vacuum7(la)_for_Pittsburgh.pdf

If we accept qualia and mental reality (not quite the same thing) physics is just mute. Like Chalmers says, until the hard problem of qualia can be settled, the "Standard Theory" is conjecture. Well-grounded conjecture, but really absolutely incapable of explanation of the non-physical.

So... Quantum Field Theory works really, really, really well. But there are basic metaphysical problems in the Quantum Theory. Add to that the intractable problem (it seems) of a Grand Unified Theory which is provable and consistent (the issue is gravity). And heap on a spoonful of experiential knowledge (I know what a qualia is but physics does not) and... it is a matter of too much missing to settle the ZPE=vacuum energy=space/time that Aupmanyav suggests. At least in my opinion.

 

[radarmark]

I, personally am no dualist and no materialist. Try on "Process" or "Organism" philosophy. All of the Kosmos is experience, material and idea models are just that, useful models.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Just a Few verses earlier, Krishna said (4.16):
"Now I shall explain to you what action is, knowing which you shall be liberated from all misfortune."

Krishna instructed Arjuna according to Mysterious Motivations beyond common men.

But he also said:

"Gata-sangasya muktasya, jnānāvasthita-chetasah;
yajnāyācharatah karma, samagram pravilīyate." (BhagawadGeeta 4.23)

(The work of a man who is unattached to the modes of material nature and who is fully situated in transcendental knowledge merges entirely into transcendence.)

He (or she, if the person is a woman) is Brahman, there is no difference.

You have quoted a Gita Verse where Arjuna sits down ---confused about duty.

Krishna reminds Arjuna of the Way of Renunciates, the Yoga of Renunciates ---for whatever the Yogi does, the Yogi does for primeval Vishnu.

Thus, all the Yogis' works are technically sacrifices,
because sacrifice aims at satisfying the Supreme Person Vishnu.

The resultant reactions to all such work certainly merge into
transcendence, and one does not suffer material effects.

Later Arjuna says (5.1):
O Krishna, first of all You ask me to renounce work, and then again You recommend work with devotion. Now will You kindly tell me definitely which of the two is more beneficial?

Finally Arjuna confesses openly in the last verse of the 6th Chapter (6.33):
O Madhusudana, the system of yoga which You have summarized appears impractical and unendurable to me, for the mind is restless and unsteady.

Apparently, Arjuna took other advise ---from Krishna.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Re: Atheism in Hinduism

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaktajan
The Conclusion of the Vedas (aka, Vedanta) is attainable only through a Guru who is a bonafide representative of the Science of Self-realization.

Kindly give reference to the book and hymn where Vedas say this.

SIR! YES SIR!

ATTEN HUT ! :

BHAGVAD-GITA 4.34

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.
Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him.
The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you
because they have seen the truth.

SIR! YES SIR!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaktajan
Q: "How does one know who their real father is?"
A: "Ask your mother"

Sometimes even the mother does not know. When Satyakama asked this question, his mother said, 'Son, at the time you were conceived, I sported with many men. I do not know who your father is.'

A] <FYI: Context of Mr Satyakama Unknown>

B] Surely, as per my readings, similar admissions of bad-karma were testimony toward HONESTY & HUMILITY usually requested by a Guru ---before accepting the novice into the ashram, for formal schooling ---as per tradition.
The Guru asked the question, the student must be Honest to the Guru.
The student shall not pretend they have oppulences beyond the truth.
One can NOT ascend up the ranks without the bestowment from higher-ups.

Same thing for any skill-set or profession or school of logic.

C] “Sometimes” is NOT the topic. Law is. Rules are. Tradition is. Happy Babyhood is.

ALL “Knowledge passes from teacher to student”

When one is able to gain the answer from the question posed to their Mother, “Who is my real father?” One is already bestowed good fortune at the start of life.
We should strive to make these arraingment for the sake of the village.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaktajan
Atheism in "Hindu Schools of Logic" do not deny the topic God - they just talk past the topic. Since the soul is made of Brahman-Stuff, ..

I deny all, God/Gods/Goddesses and Soul, because I do not find any evidence.

Yes of course you are free to deny all and each and every vector point bumped into ---lastly evidence depends on self-preservation.

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


IS THIS WHAT YOU HAVE PROCLAIMED?:

I affirm NONE,
I affirm there are NO God/
No Gods/
No Goddesses and
No Soul,
Because this is the ONLY evidence I find.

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
God is Personality in all Opulences unlimitedly.
Contraily, You have proclaimed that you are meant and destined to disappear once and for all as soon as you can ---or when the No Gods call your number.
My advise is how to see God in the face & heart of an attacker as they make rapid demands ---this will be a noble exercise ---rather then mundane vocation of thinking of God as a Requisition Clerk for the whims of the 5 senses.
Remember, turning on the Lights, driving on the motorway, flying in an airship, plying across the Ocean waves or watching a matinee idol on the silver screen DOES NOT require your Expertise ---they are mysteriously operating according to laws beyond your control ---that includes the morning constitution and the nightly sleeping beating heart ---so many operations and mysterious workings that WE are NOT aware of, “How it works”.
One learns nothing from self.
One must renounce everything to see their own POV of the Self.
All POVs are watching the same Cinema Screen of Life from different prespectives only.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. the debates are inre the nature of the soul.

The nature of the soul is not an Proper Topic for advaita logistics and semantics. Advaita seeks to show that everything is UNIFIED. But, by extention, the advaitists seek to (mistakenly) show that the Nature of the soul is somekind of omni-present overlord.

The "Nature of the soul" is a topic that is beyond the perview of advaita logistics and semantics. There is a bias against the "Nature of the soul" as the POV of an eternal individual "Living Entity" aka a Soul, aka, jiva-atma (individual-soul being).

This is the source & Goal of the Hindu Advaita logistics and semantics. Hindu Advaita logistics and semantics are true and correct ... except in the topic of the "Nature of the soul" ... thus, the Bias.

I wish a stuanch advaitist would debate me - without their showing fear that I will show them their self; and the Supreme-Self Godhead too, into the bargain.

I think your wish has been fulfilled and here is a staunch advaitist to debate it.

Bhaktajan, what if I reject both God and Soul. Then I have nothing to prove. The living entity is the body, gets born by the union of male and female, lives its time and then disintegrates in time. That is the whole story.

Atheism and advaita make a dangerous combination. :rofl:

 

[Aupmanyav]

- acceleration changes mass - we may not know exactly how.

... it is a matter of too much missing to settle the ZPE=vacuum energy=space/time that Aupmanyav suggests. At least in my opinion.

And what about MOND (Modified Newtonian Dynamics). I accept that there is a lot more to know and the search is on. But perhaps the possibility exists that space/time/mass/energy are all related and not just space/time or mass/energy. Your views ...

I, personally am no dualist and no materialist. Try on "Process" or "Organism" philosophy. All of the Kosmos is experience, material and idea models are just that, useful models.

That also is a possibility that all cosmos is just experience, just perception, nothing other than 'maya' (advaita says that - Brahma Satyam, Jagan-mithya - Brahman is truth, the observed is illusion), if all what seems to exists has arisen from 'void', 'nothing'. As I mentioned earlier, 'Nasadiya Sukta' in RigVeda hints at that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Apparently, Arjuna took other advise ---from Krishna.

Bhaktajan, Arjuna was a unenlightened confused person five thousand years ago facing a crisis situation. Krishna explained things according to Arjuna's capabilities. We do the same today. Even if we know that a person is critically ill with cancer or AIDS, we say that God will help him/her. And the person dies within a week. Arjuna too, like many people today, had the God fixation. One needs to understand the true meaning of Krishna's teaching in BhagawadGeeta.

"Yaj jnātvā na punar moham, evam yasyasi, Pandava;
yena bhūtāny asesani, drakṣyasy ātmany atho mayi." (BhagwadGeeta 4.35)

Knowing thus there is no illusion again, and O Pandava (Arjuna), and following that you will see all living entities in yourself (atmani), or are mine. (which means yourself and Krishna are the same - advaita)

 

[Aupmanyav]

Kindly give reference to the book and hymn where Vedas say this.

Sir! Yes Sir! Atten Hut! BhagawadGeeta 4.34

You said Vedas!

I deny all, God/Gods/Goddesses and Soul, because I do not find any evidence.

Yes of course you are free to deny all and each and ... that includes the morning constitution and the nightly sleeping beating heart ---so many operations and mysterious workings that WE are NOT aware of, “How it works” ... Screen of life from different prespectives only.

Proof? Proof? Proof? We know fairly well about morning constitution and the nightly sleeping beating heart. They are no more mysterious. The incorrectly beating hearts have been repaired by arterial blasting or stunts, or even replaced. And what we do not know would become known by effort (yajna).

Bhaktajan, font colors and sizes are not part of mature debates. It was difficult to read your post. I had to redo it.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

what if I reject . . . I have nothing to prove.

The living entity is the body,
gets born by the union of male and female,
lives its time and then disintegrates in time.
That is the whole story.

Atheism and advaita make a dangerous combination. :rofl:

I believe what you believe and also see no value.

You have failed to qualify yourself.
This is a topic beyond your purview.

You do not need exist on the terrestrial stratum. you are free to roam.

Please do not interfere.

Better you blog your life story and leave the lead to the able bodied.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Originally Posted by aupmanyav
Kindly give reference to the book and hymn where Vedas say this.

In the Rig Veda, the predominating Deity of the sun is worshiped by, this mantra:

dhyeyah sada savitr-mandala-madhya-varti narayanah sarasijasana-sannivisnah.

Narayana sits on His lotus flower within the sun. By reciting this mantra, every living entity should take shelter of Narayana just as the sun rises.

According to modern scientists, the material world rests on the sun’s effulgence. Due to the sunshine, all planets are rotating and vegetables are growing. We also have information that the moonshine helps vegetables and herbs grow. Actually Narayana within the sun is maintaining the entire universe; therefore Narayana should be worshiped by the Gayatri mantra or the Rig mantra.

OKAY LETS STAY ON TASK!!!!!

There may be some doubt as to whether the Vedic mantras are unanimous when identifying the Supreme Personality of Godhead. After all, some mantras state, indro yato ’vasitasya raja: “Indra is the King of all moving and nonmoving beings” (Rig Veda 1.32.15), while others say, agnir murdha divah: “Agni is the chief of the heavens,” and yet other mantras point to different deities as the Absolute. It would seem, then, that the Vedas present a polytheistic world view.

Answering this doubt, the Vedas themselves explain in many verses that there can be only one source of universal creation, called Brahman or Brhat, “the greatest,” which is the singular truth underlying and pervading all existence.

No finite deity like Indra or Agni can fulfill this unique role, nor would the srutis be so ignorant as to propose such an idea.

As indicated tvayi, in such many verses, Lord Visnu alone is the Absolute Truth.

Indra and other demigods may be glorified in various ways, but they possess only those powers Lord Sri Visnu has granted them.

The Vedic sages understand that this entire world—including Indra, Agni, and everything else perceivable by the eyes, ears and other senses—is identical with the one Supreme Truth, the Personality of Godhead, who is called Brhat, “the greatest,” because He is avasesa, “the ultimate substance that remains.”

Everything is resting on Brahman, but Brahman itself is resting on Krsna. Therefore Krsna is the ultimate Brahman, or Parabrahman.

The Rig Veda (1.154.1) refers to the Supreme Lord’s pastimes as follows:
visnor nu kam viryani pravocam yah parthivani vimame rajamsi.

“Only he may fully enunciate the heroic deeds of Lord Visnu who can count all the particles of dust in the world.”

Rig Veda (3.54.5) we find this mantra:
ko ’ddha veda ka iha pravocat
kuta ayatah kuta iyam visrstih
arvag deva visarjanena-
tha ko veda yata a babhuva

“Who in this world actually knows, and who can explain, whence this creation has come? The demigods, after all, are younger than the creation. Who, then, can tell whence this world has come into being?”


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Rg Veda 1.22.20
tad visnoh paramam padam sada pasyanti surayah
diviva caksur atatam visnor yat paramam padam

The wise continuously see the highest abode of Visnu. (Paraphrased)
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Rigveda 10.82.6
tamid garbham prathamam dadhra apo yatra devahsamagachanta visve ajasya nabhavadhyekamarpitamyasmin visvani bhuvanani tasthuh


The waters, they received that germ primeval wherein the gods were gathefed all together. It rested set upon the Unborn's navel, that One wherein abide all things existing.
(Another reference to Lord Visnu, who sprouted a lotus from his navel).

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Rg Veda 1.164.31
apasyam gopam anipadyamana ma ca para ca pathibhis carantam
sa sadhricih sa visucir vasana avatirvati bhuvanesv antah
I saw a cowherd. He never falls from his position; sometimes he is near, and some times far, wandering on various paths. He is a friend, decorated with a variety of clothes. He comes again and again to the material world.
(The cowherd is none other than Lord Krsna).

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Sama Veda 7.1.2
"O venerable Sir, I studied the Rg, Yajur, Säma, and Atharva Veda as well as the Itihäsas and Puranas, which are the Fifth Veda."

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Atharva Veda 11.7.24

"The Rg, Säma, Yajur, and Atharvaveda, along with the Puranas, and all the demigods residing in the heavenly planets appeared from the Supreme Lord."

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Atharva 15.6.10 and 15.6.12
"He moved favorably towards Brhati and thus the Itihasas, Puranas, Gathas, and Narashamshi became favorable to him. One who knows this verily becomes the dear abode of the Itihasas, Puranas, Gathas, and Narashamshi."

(As clearly stated by the above verses, Lord Visnu is the Supreme, and the Puranas and epics, like Mahabharata and Ramayana, are clearly Vedic. Indeed they are the Fifth Vedas.)

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Rg Veda (1.22.20):
“The lotus feet of Lord Visnu are the supreme objective of all the
demigods. These lotus feet of the Lord are as enlightening as the sun in the sky.”

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In the Svetasvatara Upanisad (5.4.) it is said:
“The glorious Supreme Personality of Godhead alone rules all creatures.”

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In the Taittiriya Upanisad (2.1.2) it is said:
“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is real, eternal, limitless, and allknowing.
One who understands the Supreme Lord residing in his heart goes to the spiritual world. There He associates with the all-knowing Supreme Lord. There all his desires are fulfilled.”

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Katha Upanisad (1.2.23) it is said:
“The Supreme Lord is not attained by expert explanations, by vast intelligence, nor even by much hearing. He is attained only by one who He Himself chooses. To such a person He manifests His own form.”

 

[Bhaktajan II]

We know fairly well about morning constitution and the nightly sleeping beating heart. They are no more mysterious.

Yes, stick to your expertise. that is a good thing.

I am saying that We do not control NOR will we ever even rise to the level that we are "controllers" or "Self-Annointed".

Ask not what your cosmos can do for you, but, ask what you do as service for others.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

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Taittiriya Upanisad (2.7.1) it is said:
“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the reservoir of transcendental mellows.”

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Is the name “Krsna” found in the Vedas? ----Is not the word “syama” a name of Lord Krsna?
In the Rg Veda (1.22.164) it is said:
“Then I saw a cowherd boy who will never die.”

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Chandogya Upanisad (8.13.1) it is said:
“To attain Lord Krsna, I surrender to Sri Radha. To attain Sri Radha, I surrender to Lord Krsna.”

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Rg Veda (1.22.164.31):
“I have seen a certain gopa dressed in colourful garments and accompanied by many
beautiful girls as He wanders the pathways in the spiritual world. That same gopa again
and again enters the material worlds and stays in the hearts of the living beings.”


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In the Skanda Purana it is said:
“My son, don't study the Rg Veda. Don't study the Yajur Veda. Don't study the Sama Veda at all. Simply chant 'O Govinda!' Always chant the holy names of Lord Hari.”

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I can quote many Vedic passages proving that devotional service to Lord Krsna is the highest attainment.


THE FOLLOWING IS IS NOT A SAMPLE OF THE VEDAS [and most likely not by a Hindu]:

Arjuna was a unenlightened confused person five thousand years ago

 

[Aupmanyav]

You do not need exist on the terrestrial stratum. you are free to roam.

No, I have my 'dharma' to fulfill. There is my mother, my wife, my daughter, my son, and my grandchildren. I cannot abdicate my responsibilities.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

No, I have my 'dharma' to fulfill. There is my mother, my wife, my daughter, my son, and my grandchildren. I cannot abdicate my responsibilities.

You are 70 years old?

10 years old in 1952?

You are striving to work hard to support an extended family?

Have you notice what your comtemporaries have achieved in the last 70 years?

Going to progressive wedding soon?

Monsanto showering with manna from heaven?

Has the cost of living gone down along with the march of progress?

Is the major cash flow in your local ecnomy earned from afluent tourists during the best seasons?

Passing whims chewing the cud so close yet so far.

A ascetic monk would be strenghtened in resolve to hear your life's endeavors ---that may or may not [in your expressed opinion] have a reason for existing presently.

::::::::::::::::::::::::

Please stop the charade. Vanaprastha is called for! That is all.
How do you avoid that obligation?

 

[Aupmanyav]

"dhyeyah sada savitr-mandala-madhya-varti narayanah sarasijasana-sannivisnah."

Which book/hymn? As far as I have checked, the word 'Narayana' does not occur in RigVeda.

Answering this doubt, the Vedas themselves explain in many verses that there can be only one source of universal creation, called Brahman or Brhat, “the greatest,” which is the singular truth underlying and pervading all existence.

Which book/hymn? I do not accept creation.

As indicated tvayi, in such many verses, Lord Visnu alone is the Absolute Truth.

As I have already written, I do not accept Sabda-pramana (Scriptures) unless they are reasonable and have independent evidence. Vishnu is mentioned in the Vedas as one of the 8/10/12 sons of God Mother Aditi. Many Gods are praised in RigVeda and not just Vishnu. Vishnu and Rudra are minor deities in RigVeda. There are 5/6 hymns in RigVeda to Vishnu, whereas there are some 250 hymns to Indra, 200 hymns to Agni, 120 to Soma, 50 to Ashvinas, 40 to Visvedevas, 33 to Marutas, etc.

Actually, Vishnu gained importance after he was amalgamated with a whole lot of indigenous Gods, the Dashavataras, starting from Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Nrisimha, Vamana, Parashurama, Rama, and Krishna, to which list Buddha was added later. Vishnu is a composite God.

Rig Veda (3.54.5) we find this mantra:

"ko ’ddha veda ka iha pravocat, kuta ayatah kuta iyam visrstih;
arvag deva visarjanenatha ko veda yata a babhuva"

(Who in this world actually knows, and who can explain, whence this creation has come? The demigods, after all, are younger than the creation. Who, then, can tell whence this world has come into being?)

You have misquoted the verse here. The verse is as follows (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rvsan/rv03054.htm):

"ko addha veda ka iha pravocad devanachha pathya ka sameti;
dadrashra eshamavama sadamsi pareshu ya ghuhyeshu vrateshu."

And the meaning (according to Ralph Griffith) is:
What pathway leadeth to the Gods? Who knoweth this of a truth, and who will now declare it?
Seen are their lowest dwelling-places only, but they are in remote and secret regions."

The verse says nothing about Lord Vishnu. The verse is dedicated to Vishvedevas and heard (written) by Prajapati Vaisvamitra/Vakya, that means, Prajapati in the line of Sage Viswamitra. Vakya, most probably a clansman, must have changed/added something to the verse.

In case, the other verses also are misquoted, then it will take a long time for me to correct them all. This is not done in a civil debate. This is a sort of cheating. Of course, no fault of yours, because you have only copied and pasted it from some Hare-Krishna literature.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are 70 years old? 10 years old in 1952?

You are striving to work hard to support an extended family? Have you notice what your comtemporaries have achieved in the last 70 years?

Has the cost of living gone down along with the march of progress? Is the major cash flow in your local ecnomy earned from afluent tourists during the best seasons?

I have retired from work. I am in Vanaprastha ashram, advising my children and their children, that is my duty. My contemporaries have achieved according to their chance and capabilities, I have achieved what I have according to my chances and capabilities. I have no envy of those who may have achieved more than me. Cost of living has increased and so has the material level of living. Indians are the 'affluent tourists'. India spends more on international travel than it earns from incoming tourists.

I did not talk about your personal life, why should you talk about my personal life? I have nothing to hide if you choose to do so.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I find that the link given by me does not work. Try this: Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 3: HYMN LIV. Viśvedevas.
On a fuller reading I find that the verse praises nearly the whole pantheon of Aryan Gods and not just Vishnu.

I randomly checked one of the verses from Sama Veda quoted by you (7.1.2). Here is your translation: "O venerable Sir, I studied the Rg, Yajur, Säma, and Atharva Veda as well as the Itihäsas and Puranas, which are the Fifth Veda."

Here is Ralph Griffith's translation: 2. Hither have his bay steeds been sent, red steeds are on the sacred grass. Where we in concert sing our songs. http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sv.htm

We are obviously looking at different books. It seems that Hare-Krishnas have Vedas which are different from those at www.sacred-texts.com. It seems to be a futile exercise to compare the two.