Esoteric Christianity so called

[Nick_A]

Last time I checked Nick, you were the one who was preaching the virtues of
man made interpretations while rejecting the authority of revealed scriptures.

It isn't a matter of interpretations but of becoming able to understand scripture. Knowing and understanding are not the same.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Nick —

I don't mean to be offensive but Christianity is more than a label.

Then why do you insist on applying labels to it? Christianity/Christendom ... esoteric/exoteric ... they're both labels, Nick, by which you're trying to compartmentalise something according to your own determination.

Furthermore I have demonstrated that the materials you label as 'esoteric' are in reality a tissue of errors. You seem to have no response to that point, either.

So far I have shown that all your indicators of an esoteric Christianity are false, indeed the premise itself is false. It would help if you could actually respond to the issues raised, rather than ignoring them, and just ploughing on with more of the same ...

Thomas

 

[c0de]

It isn't a matter of interpretations but of becoming able to understand scripture. Knowing and understanding are not the same.

Dude, it's pop-philosophy. That's all.

I don't know about Simone Weil, but I am sure about Needleman.
I heard him speak (authors@google), and the guy is clueless
but pretends to know. I explained to you before exactly why I
think him to be an impostor. There are many like him, most in fact.

And as for your attempt at interpreting scripture, well... The problem
is that these are not really your interpretations, are they?
You are taking these man made interpretations (which are not your own)
and pretending as if they are. So you can't really claim independence of
thought, as you most often do. You have made Plato and Weil your
prophets. You take their man-made paradigms and the interpretations of
those like Needleman and then go on to deride others for being chained and
shackled to "the beast". This is the real issue here: your attack on others
for being intellectual slaves for not accepting your paradigm. (But it is not
even your paradigm, is it?)

I recently came upon a quote of one of Dostevesky's characters,
I think it is too harsh a description of you, considering the subject
who was being addressed. But taken on its own, the statement serves
your case well. Maybe you will find some warning in it:

"Its not you that ate the idea, but the idea that ate you"

 

[Nick_A]

Hi Nick —


Then why do you insist on applying labels to it? Christianity/Christendom ... esoteric/exoteric ... they're both labels, Nick, by which you're trying to compartmentalise something according to your own determination.

Furthermore I have demonstrated that the materials you label as 'esoteric' are in reality a tissue of errors. You seem to have no response to that point, either.

So far I have shown that all your indicators of an esoteric Christianity are false, indeed the premise itself is false. It would help if you could actually respond to the issues raised, rather than ignoring them, and just ploughing on with more of the same ...

Thomas

Thomas

All you have proven is that you don't understand how Exoteric Christianity differs from esoteric Christianity. The adaptations of the horizontal man to societal life is different then the quality of the moment or the "vertical man" which is the concern of esoteric Christianity.

Taken together the vertical and horizontal directions form a cross and it is the quality of the vertical that intersects the horizontal of the cross that determines the objective quality of a person.

When we read scripture, most read it from the horizontal perspective. We like to interpret it from our level. But the purpose of sacred text is to awaken us to the vertical direction awakening ourselves as a vertical man with the potential to connect heaven and earth.

From this perspective, the Crucifixion and Resurrection make perfect sense. But this idea of an angered personal God provoking the Son into taking the consequences for our actions, is just not satisfying. We sense a deeper meaning beyond the limits of our personality, a vertical truth behind this horizontal personalized expression that can change blind faith into the faith OF Christ.

How many people in the Church today would know how to pray according to St. Simeon?

"The Three Methods of Prayer" -- St. Simeon the New Theologian

Click the bottom of the page to get the second method and again to get the third.

This is psychology that effects the inner man. Yet I see so many making a spectacle our of prayer that it is virtually demonic.

Christianity that should touch the inner man and the seed of the soul has become Christendom that is concerned with behavior and blind faith. People just don't know what has been lost

 

[Nick_A]

Dude, it's pop-philosophy. That's all.

I don't know about Simone Weil, but I am sure about Needleman.
I heard him speak (authors@google), and the guy is clueless
but pretends to know. I explained to you before exactly why I
think him to be an impostor. There are many like him, most in fact.

And as for your attempt at interpreting scripture, well... The problem
is that these are not really your interpretations, are they?
You are taking these man made interpretations (which are not your own)
and pretending as if they are. So you can't really claim independence of
thought, as you most often do. You have made Plato and Weil your
prophets. You take their man-made paradigms and the interpretations of
those like Needleman and then go on to deride others for being chained and
shackled to "the beast". This is the real issue here: your attack on others
for being intellectual slaves for not accepting your paradigm. (But it is not
even your paradigm, is it?)

I recently came upon a quote of one of Dostevesky's characters,
I think it is too harsh a description of you, considering the subject
who was being addressed. But taken on its own, the statement serves
your case well. Maybe you will find some warning in it:

"Its not you that ate the idea, but the idea that ate you"

cOde

Where Thomas prefers faith to reason, you prefer following literal meaning. Scripture though invites us to open our mind angering both of you since you believe your minds are already opened. You don't admit the possibility of our self deception.

Imposters simply don't understand these things since they do annoy many. for example:

SPIRITUALITY AND THE INTELLECT with JACOB NEEDLEMAN.

NEEDLEMAN: There's an ancient and deep truth there, that can degenerate when it's taken in a simple way, in a stupid way, just as the view that this is a tough universe and everything obeys laws and you have to pay for it, can degenerate into some hard, cynical view. Basically the great traditions have always taught that there is something in us which is godlike, and that there is an inherent joy within us; and that yes, like the Buddhists say, you already are the Buddha; or like the Christians say, Christ has already forgiven you, the kingdom has already appeared. But that doesn't mean we are in touch with it. Those who are, have a very deeply well earned joyousness. But those who just take it as an idea, and as something attractive emotionally, may make it look foolish. It can become a very foolish thing, where somebody is saying everything is just fine while the house is burning. Things are not so fine. Even in Buddhism -- the house is burning, the Buddhist says, and you've got to get out of that burning house and realize your inherent Buddha-ness. So yes, when you say, what do I think of it, in its authentic form it's a deep truth. In its perverted forms it can be silly -- just as it's a deep truth that you have to work hard and suffer for understanding, but in its perverted form it makes everything impossible, cynical, tough, as scientism does sometimes -- there's nothing out there, we're here, we're cast adrift, we're going nowhere. Both views are perverted -- what you might call the daydream view, and the nightmare view. They're both fantasies.

MISHLOVE: One of the notions that you introduced in your book, The Heart of Philosophy, is that true philosophy involves a kind of agonizing, or a remembering -- I don't quite remember the word that you used, but it has to do with the dual nature of man -- that part of us is here in this physical body, in this three-dimensional world, and another part of us partakes of the infinite, of the absolute, of the Platonic or spiritual realms. The fact that we have these two parts to us creates an inescapable tension. And real philosophy is in effect its coming to terms, grasping that tension and really beginning to deal with it.


NEEDLEMAN: Yes, we're creatures in two worlds -- the world beyond this one, and this one. And Socrates' understanding of philosophy is one of the ways to help us remember, feel, hear the call of something in us that is from a much greater reality. It's what he called remembering -- the way of remembering. It helps us to remember that there's something much greater in ourselves. At the same time, we live in this world, we're egos, we're people, we're physical. So this human condition of being both the high and the low together, both the inner and the outer, of being two things at the same time -- that's what distinguishes human beings from all other creatures. And it's our task, as you say, to deal with it -- well, at least to face it, to live it.

You want something new but the great teachings invite us to remember what has been forgotten

MISHLOVE: Somewhere in the middle, then, there must be a place in which developing the intellect to grasp our dual nature -- our physical nature and our spiritual nature -- becomes important. I guess the Buddhists might have referred to this as right thinking.
NEEDLEMAN: Absolutely. The intellect is a very important function in us. It's been twisted, it's been used wrong. It's like an extraordinary tool that's not being used right, or like a computer that's in the hands of a maniac. This is an extraordinary thing, and it's very much part of us. There are many levels of intellect, but even our ordinary level can be used in a different way. For that, we need to have more real experience. The intellect functions well when it feeds on deep, true experiences. And our level of experience is not good. So the more we can have real experiences, the more the intellect has reality to work with. As it is we live on fantasies.

To you intellect is just associative thought: basic duality. However we are capable of an intelligence far beyond dual associative thought that opens us to the triune reality. This is the contemplative mind in Christianity that becomes fantasy for many.

It's ironic that his transcript is from an interview on "Thinking Allowed." We don't appreciate how hard impartial reason is to maintain since we are so governed by our emotions.
Matthew 15

16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'

Yes we are "so dull." For us, these expressions of unclean thought is our pride and joy.

 

[wil]

I think I'm saying I don't think you actually believe in the message of the text at all, I think you just 'utilize' some of the ideas contained there.

The message. Now what would you say is 'the message'? The message to me is that we are all connected to G!d, each story of the bible is a story of my life, my psyche contains all the characters, all the tribes, all the lands battling for control. And that thru the teachings of Jesus I can overcome the trials of this material life and live in heaven on earth.

 

[c0de]

cOde

Where Thomas prefers faith to reason, you prefer following literal meaning. Scripture though invites us to open our mind angering both of you since you believe your minds are already opened. You don't admit the possibility of our self deception.

Imposters simply don't understand these things since they do annoy many. for example:

SPIRITUALITY AND THE INTELLECT with JACOB NEEDLEMAN.




You want something new but the great teachings invite us to remember what has been forgotten

To you intellect is just associative thought: basic duality. However we are capable of an intelligence far beyond dual associative thought that opens us to the triune reality. This is the contemplative mind in Christianity that becomes fantasy for many.

It's ironic that his transcript is from an interview on "Thinking Allowed." We don't appreciate how hard impartial reason is to maintain since we are so governed by our emotions.
Matthew 15



Yes we are "so dull." For us, these expressions of unclean thought is our pride and joy.

You know you just completely avoided the entire point there rite?
Did you think I wouldn't notice?
Anywayzzzz, im gonna go waste my time elsewhere....

 

[c0de]

p.s. By the way, your analysis of me being a "literalist" is funny considering my
arguments with Abdallah on this very forum. Also, I find your falling back on
incessantly quoting Needleman very amusing, especially considering the
argument against your supposed independence of thought
(which you avoided dealing with).

 

[Nick_A]

p.s. By the way, your analysis of me being a "literalist" is funny considering my
arguments with Abdallah on this very forum. Also, I find your falling back on
incessantly quoting Needleman very amusing, especially considering the
argument against your supposed independence of thought
(which you avoided dealing with).

I quote Simone a lot because she is an individual and not involved with anyone else. So the technique of guilt by association is avoided. I quote Prof. Needleman because he is alive and appreciates questions so understands why we are hostile and the value of opening the mind for the sake of the heart.

 

[c0de]

I quote Simone a lot because she is an individual and not involved with anyone else. So the technique of guilt by association is avoided. I quote Prof. Needleman because he is alive and appreciates questions so understands why we are hostile and the value of opening the mind for the sake of the heart.

Translation: You quote them because you have adopted their paradigm.

Therefore, your thought is not independent.

 

[Thomas]

Nick —

The adaptations of the horizontal man to societal life is different then the quality of the moment or the "vertical man" which is the concern of esoteric Christianity.

You have highlighted the essential error of 'esoteric Christianity', it seeks to emphasise the difference between horizontal and vertical and effectively dismembers the person, and separates him from his true being: not just a soul, not just a spirit, not just a body, but a human being.

True Christianity seeks the unity of man in all his parts:
"And may the God of peace himself sanctify you in all things; that your whole spirit (pneuma), and soul (psyche), and body (soma), may be preserved blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Thessalonians 5:23

I strongly recommend read the text on The Constitution of Man — St Paul's Anthropology: The Human Ternary in The Secrets of the Christian Way, p81-83.

It is interesting that it shows how 'esoteric Christianity' belongs to the psyche, which is why there are so many variations on what constitutes 'esoteric Christianity', why there were, and indeed are, so many different schools with conflicting ideas and determinations (which is itself a clear indicator of its human and essentially egoic origin), whereas an authentic 'Christian esoterism' is an illumination of the order of the pneuma, which is of a different order entirely.

I would also suggest René Guénon "The Symbolism of the Cross". He was a Sufi, so probably a lot more palatable for you than a Christian, but the message is essentially the same.

Basically, in the rejection of the sanctification of the whole person, your doctrine devolves from a properly tripartite Christian esoterism in which all difference is resolved (love, like faith, is blind, by the way) into a general and typical oppositional dualism.

If you do not understand, allow and embrace the horizontal dimension of Christianity, as well as the vertical, if you do not love your neighbour as well as your God, you understand none of it.

But this idea of an angered personal God provoking the Son into taking the consequences for our actions, is just not satisfying.

Nor is it Christian, it's another example of the delusion you labour under in what you assume Christianity to be.

How many people in the Church today would know how to pray according to St. Simeon?

I don't know Nick ... but how much would you delight in being the one to test us all to find out, eh? And how much would you delight every time one of us failed to meet your exacting criteria?

I thank God it is faith in Christ that saves, and not you,
because if it were you, none of us would make it.

Thomas

 

[seattlegal]

I'd rep you on that last post, Thomas, but I'm done repped out!

 

[Nick_A]

Thomas

If you knew what was in p.81-83, you'd understand esoteric Christianity and what Jacob Needleman means by presence. It is the conscious unification of the mind body and spirit. It's value can become understood emotionally and it is the spirit that enables this understanding.

The human heart is fragmented and unable to provide us its appreciation of vertical quality or the inner direction the seed of the soul is drawn towards to find its nourishment.. In turn we are captive of every sort of negative emotion and their exaggeration. That is why as a whole we form the "Great Beast."

Basically, in the rejection of the sanctification of the whole person, your doctrine devolves from a properly tripartite Christian esoterism in which all difference is resolved (love, like faith, is blind, by the way) into a general and typical oppositional dualism.

You say this because you don't appreciate levels of reality. Jesus doesn't have a foot fetish and when he refers to the importance of washing the feet, it has a deeper vertical inner meaning. The feet represent the parts of ourselves that touch the external world. So for us as a creature of three parts, mind body and spirit, the feet in the context of the vertical man refer to our sensations, animal and negative emotions, and our associative thought. The disciples feet in the context of the vertical man had to be cleaned but they were not dirty on the inside.

From the perspective of the vertical man, conflict between our will and the conditioned needs of the body become reconciled by a higher quality of emotion that includes the Spirit. This relationship is symbolized by the triangle where the body is on one side of a horizontal line and the will on another. This can be reconciled by our normal emotions which leads to our daily lives or it can be reconciled with the help if the spirit which allow us to "know thyself." As it says on p.83 "What he does say is to simply: to know thyself is to become oneself. In other words, the objective viewpoint of doctrine is inseparable from the 'subjective" viewpoint of spiritual alchemy." From this point of view, the awakened heart reconciles the conflict between body and will from the apex of the triangle, a higher level of reality in which they exist as one.

If you do not understand, allow and embrace the horizontal dimension of Christianity, as well as the vertical, if you do not love your neighbour as well as your God, you understand none of it.

Have you ever thought what was unique about Christian love? does it have a meaning for you beyond our usual secular considerations.

I don't know Nick ... but how much would you delight in being the one to test us all to find out, eh? And how much would you delight every time one of us failed to meet your exacting criteria?

I thank God it is faith in Christ that saves, and not you,
because if it were you, none of us would make it.

What is it in your beliefs that justifies all this negativity? Why would I delight in coming to know the human condition and how so much useless suffering results directly from it.

Those like you and cOde think that religion should be argued from our egos rather then making the effort to understand the essence of our respective traditions.

Concerning the relationship between Christianity and Christendom, Father Sylvan makes the following point:

"We must occupy the body of the old Christianity, the moral body of the immortal truth. Criticism is not the point. Presence is the point, awareness of the gap separating the ideas and the actual situation."

Presence is what unites the mind, body, and spirit, you referred to. But presence requires the conscious intent to become present but as a whole we've lost the ability to retain the state of presence for other then brief intervals. If man had presence, everything would be different and the God, Son, Man relationship both in ourselves and in the external world would become natural for our being. We lack presence so continue to exist as we do in Plato's cave.

The Spirit helps the heart to support our conscious intent necessary for presence since we can "feel" its value but we have to invite the spirit. However, we prefer to argue and justify ourselves so nothing essentially changes other then in form to adjust to changing external circumstances.

 

[c0de]

Those like you and cOde think that religion should be argued from our egos rather then making the effort to understand the essence of our respective traditions.

You mean like the ego that you have repeatedly displayed here
when you have accused us of intellectual slavery, and elevated
yourself to the point of being some grand martyr for truth?

 

[Nick_A]

You mean like the ego that you have repeatedly displayed here
when you have accused us of intellectual slavery, and elevated
yourself to the point of being some grand martyr for truth?

Stating the obvious is not being a grand martyr for truth. We are in Plato's cave and reason in the way normal for cave life. I am just willing to admit it in myself and make the effort to limit my associative thought to what it was designed for. You prefer to argue and accuse.

 

[c0de]

Stating the obvious is not being a grand martyr for truth.

Then what exactly are you doing here if not playing the martyr?

In the words of the most highly esteemed Mullah Nassr Eddin: "Never poke your stick into a hornets' nest."

This is what someone like me does when they question the sanctity of man made interpretations, normal for the needs of the "Great Beast," of a conscious teaching that enters our plane of existence from above for the purpose of "awakening."

You think that this is stating the plain and obvious truth, but from
the other side, it can be perceived as a grand attempt at
self righteous justification.

Not only have you totally avoided the issue that your paradigm
is man made, you have completely side-stepped your behavior of late
which has stated that all those who are willing to put their faith in
revelation are intellectual slaves. By doing so, you are by default putting
yourself above them in rank.

 

[Nick_A]

cOde

All it says is I'm a damn fool willing to admit it.

Esoteric Christianity is one of the best kept secrets. Unfortunately though various New Age imitations are coming out using the name but Esoteric Christianity. Even though, it is there for those who need it. If it is a perennial teaching which means that it is connected even if in a distorted form to a conscious source. So rather then looking for sheep it looks for those who feel the calling to become themselves so as to experience human meaning and purpose Jesus offered through re-birth.

The Perennial Tradition--Introduction

"I have meditated on the different religions, endeavoring to understand them, and I have found that they stem from a single principle with numerous ramifications. Do not therefore ask a man to adopt a particular religion (rather than another), for this would separate him from the fundamental principle; it is this principle itself which must come to seek him; in it are all the heights and all the meanings elucidated; then he will understand them."
Al-Hallaj, a Sufi Perennialist teacher​

"Hence there is a single religion and a single creed for all beings endowed with understanding, and this religion is presupposed behind all the diversity of rites."
Nicolas of Cusa​

Do you believe these people are putting themselves ahead in rank or even are concerned with rank or are they searching for the truths at the source of what you call revelations? I've come to believe that such people are right and the truth of the great traditions have a far deeper conscious origin then we suppose. But to begin to get a grasp of it we have to come first to what Socrates did when he said "I know nothing." Then we can begin with creating new bottles out of ourselves that can hold new wine. The associative mind then has to be abandoned for the sake of conscious affirmation. Simone Weil was brilliant. If she can surrender her ability for associative thought for the purpose of conscious affirmation, who am I to argue? She admits that she knows nothing.

The role of the intelligence - that part of us which affirms and denies and formulates opinions is merely to submit. Simone Weil

St. Paul was willing to admit his slavery and I'm willing to admit mine. If this appears elitist that I actually don't swallow the exoteric teachings and secularism hook, line, and sinker, then I am an elitist. I prefer to be open to the source behind them rather then argue interpretations.

I'm happy to be able on my path to associate with representatives of all different paths that struggle to experience the common reality that lies behind them and we are always being called to. We are aware of our limitations so there is nothing to justify being insulted or being elitist. It doesn't make sense for one idiot to call another idiot an idiot. Rather than argue idiocy, it is more profitable to cooperate in the mutual effort to become oneself and to serve the higher conscious purpose we are invited to serve with help from above rather than fight in a burning house.​

 

[c0de]

St. Paul was willing to admit his slavery and I'm willing to admit mine. If this appears elitist that I actually don't swallow the exoteric teachings and secularism hook, line, and sinker, then I am an elitist. I prefer to be open to the source behind them rather then argue interpretations.​

Here's the thing Nick... you are not these people you are quoting.
If you were, then you wouldn't have accused fellow members here of
'not being able to love God'. You keep quoting me Weil, and these other
sufi mystics. And now in this very post you are not just associating
yourself with the people you are quoting, you are trying to share in
their status and seek an authority from that status to look down at
everyone else, as you have done on many occasions in the past.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Nick —

If you knew what was in p.81-83, you'd understand esoteric Christianity and what Jacob Needleman means by presence.

Nice try Nick, but if you look on my website, you'll see texts by Jean Borella that were sent to me. The point is I do know, that's why I quoted the text ... it's your sources who have little or no idea of what Borella and the Christian esoteric tradition means by what it says. Be assured that he and I are of the same mind on these matters however. As I have demonstrated, it's Needleman who misses the point.

It is the conscious unification of the mind body and spirit. It's value can become understood emotionally and it is the spirit that enables this understanding.

Once again, neither Father, nor Son nor Holy Spirit figure in this formula, so it's purely a human and natural operation. A sportsman would understand it exactly as the necessary requirement to get to the top of his profession. So would a salesman. There's nothing Christian about it at all, and I fail to see why you think it's esoteric.

You say this because you don't appreciate levels of reality. Jesus doesn't have a foot fetish and when he refers to the importance of washing the feet, it has a deeper vertical inner meaning.

Nick — you really have a very poor opinion of anyone but yourself, don't you? You are the one who sees a fetish here, no-one else does, let me assure you. Really, I wonder what goes on in your head when you think of others. All I see is abuse, insensitivity and ignorance about others.

Have you ever thought what was unique about Christian love?.

Yes ... everything you don't see.

What is it in your beliefs that justifies all this negativity? Why would I delight in coming to know the human condition and how so much useless suffering results directly from it.

You need to ask yourself this, Nick.

Concerning the relationship between Christianity and Christendom, Father Sylvan makes the following point:

Nick, has it not occurred to you yet why Needlemen needs to invent the fictional figure of a Fr Sylvan? Can you not see he's an alter-ego of the author, a product of his own self to compensate for his own inability to see? Look up the meaning of the name, the clue is right there!

Then consider 'Lost Christianity' and the phrase 'can't see the word for the trees' and what his soul is trying to communicate to himself.

Really Nick, I'm giving you far more than you deserve.

Presence is what unites the mind, body, and spirit, you referred to. But presence requires the conscious intent to become present but as a whole we've lost the ability to retain the state of presence for other then brief intervals...

Nick, when will you realise it's not about you?

The only 'presence' that matters is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Listen, if you must, to your Fr Sylvan:

"We must occupy the body of the old Christianity, the moral body of the immortal truth...

Note moral body ... the moral lesson of Christianity is love of others over love of self, something utterly absent from your posts, in fact quite the reverse is evident, as surely these responses are telling you.

... Criticism is not the point ...

Yet from the very outset, all you have done is offered the severest criticism of others.

... Presence is the point, awareness of the gap separating the ideas and the actual situation."

How do you close that gap?

Two lessons any budding Christian esoterist needs to understand and take to heart:
"Without me you can do nothing." John 15:5.
"With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26.

Actually, a really good place for you to start is:
Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism"
There is no better source of Christian esoteric thinking that here.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

The discussion of 'esoteric Christianity' has been raised, and the discussion has ranged far and wide, and is becoming personal, which is not the purpose of this board.

Personal discussions can continue wherever one feels at home.

Here, if anyone wishes to continue, I suggest we address the actual content of the claims to Esoteric Christianity, bring out the points made and address them specifically.

Two sites referenced were:
Esoteric Christianity by Dwight Ott, and
Esoteric Christianity by Norman D Livergood.

If there is a point of interest, it might be worth starting a thread on that topic.

Thomas