Jesus - Messaih?

[17th Angel]

Why not? There is no law against walking on water... right?

True... But, it ain't really the normal thang now is it.... Although I guess what's his face from the bible walked out from a lion den unscathed allegedly. Meh, nevermind lol. Actually... Yeah there are two laws agaisnt it.... Ones called Gravity, and the other physics....

 

[c0de]

Jesus was sent to the Jews, but His message was delivered to all of the world through His followers. The Gospel does after all preach salvation to anyone, regardless if they are Jews or not.

About that verse, I fail to see how that particular verse relates to the comming of Muhammad. Sure you picked the correct one?

Sorry, it was the wrong verse number. Here's the verse I was
referring to: John 16:12:14

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you."
​

Notice that in the Quran, the Prophet Muhammad is referred to as
the Truth. (17:81). There has been a lot of debate between the
Muslims and the Christians on this issue. There are other verses which
the Muslim side uses to show how even in the Old Testament, Moses
prophecised about the coming of Muhammad PBUH (Deuteronomy 18:18
and 28:1-2) Now the Jews believe this prophet has not yet come. The
Christians think that this was Jesus PBUH, and the Muslims of course
believe that it was Muhammad PBUH. Muslims also use the verses in the
New Testament like the one cited above, & all those other verses which
talk about the comforter/councilor (e.g. John 16:7, and 14:16) are referring
to the Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

Now the problem is that all sides have their own arguments.
At the end of the day, its just a matter of faith really.

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

See, this is the perfect example of this.
If you take different translations of this verse, you
will find that not all of them use the word "begotten".
Check it out: Psalm 2:7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:

As far as I know, Jesus is mentioned as divine or begotten
in very few places in the Bible. And for Muslims who believe that
the bible has been corrupted, we can just say that these verses
were fabricated.

This is why the dialogue between Muslims and Christians (and Jews,
for that matter) always ends with all sides going their seperate ways
on these issues. We all just believe in different versions of the same
stories. Now obviously, I am a Muslim so if you ask me, the version told
in the Quran is the truth. But a Christian and Jew would obviously disagree.

 

[farhan]

it seems as if whether Adam, Abraham, Moses....thru to Jesus and Muhammed......... each shared truths in which to bring messages (signs)

They all contribute and Loved us by giving of themselves for our 'increased' knowledge (the evolving progression of truth).

the idea of Messiah in quran as being 'annoited messengers'

Messiah literally means anointed (& so messenger-prophet-king). What is the basis for the rest of your claim?

 

[farhan]

Why would He specify that the Messiah is His Son, if the term Son of God is applied to any true servant of God? Also, this verse specifies that indeed God had begotten Him, yet it's one of the holy texts of Islam. How can Muslims not believe it then?

There are like a dozen other sons of God & Messiahs in the Bible, so why this special treatment for jesus.

"...Adam, which was the son of God."(Luke 3:38)

"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair... And when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them..." (Genesis 6: 2,4)

"...Israel is My son, even My firstborn:" (Exodus 4:22)

"...for I (God) am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn." (Jeremiah 31:9)

"...the Lord hath said unto me (David): 'Thou art My son: this day have I begotten thee." (Psalms 2:7)

"...Also I will make him my first-born, higher than the kings of the earth...(Psalms 89:27)

“...Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord (Job 1:6)

"...I will be his (Solomon's) father, and he shall be my son.” ( 2nd Samuel 8:14)

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 18:14)

----

"I am the God of Bethel, where thou ANOINTEDEST (messiah) the PILLAR. . ." (Genesis 31:13)

"And Moses took the ANOINTING (Messiah) OIL, and ANOINTED (Messiah) the TABERNACLE. . .'' (LEVITICUS 8:10)

"He (the Lord) shall give strength unto his king and exalt the HORN of his ANOINTED (messiah)" (I SAMUEL 2:10)

"Thou art the ANOINTED (Messiah) CHERUB" (EZEKIEL 28:14)

"Thus saith the Lord to his ANOINTED (messiah) CYRUS. . ." (ISAIAH 45:1)

 

[Heksesang]

Sorry, it was the wrong verse number. Here's the verse I was
referring to: John 16:12:14

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you."
​

Notice that in the Quran, the Prophet Muhammad is referred to as
the Truth. (17:81). There has been a lot of debate between the
Muslims and the Christians on this issue. There are other verses which
the Muslim side uses to show how even in the Old Testament, Moses
prophecised about the coming of Muhammad PBUH (Deuteronomy 18:18
and 28:1-2) Now the Jews believe this prophet has not yet come. The
Christians think that this was Jesus PBUH, and the Muslims of course
believe that it was Muhammad PBUH. Muslims also use the verses in the
New Testament like the one cited above, & all those other verses which
talk about the comforter/councilor (e.g. John 16:7, and 14:16) are referring
to the Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

Now the problem is that all sides have their own arguments.
At the end of the day, its just a matter of faith really.

Christians belive that the Spirit of Truth was the Holy Spirit, with Spirit being the keyword.

As for the Deuteronomy 18:18, it speaks of the Jews, that a Prophet will be risen among their brethren. How do you relate this to Muhammad?

See, this is the perfect example of this.
If you take different translations of this verse, you
will find that not all of them use the word "begotten".
Check it out: Psalm 2:7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:

As far as I know, Jesus is mentioned as divine or begotten
in very few places in the Bible. And for Muslims who believe that
the bible has been corrupted, we can just say that these verses
were fabricated.

This is why the dialogue between Muslims and Christians (and Jews,
for that matter) always ends with all sides going their seperate ways
on these issues. We all just believe in different versions of the same
stories. Now obviously, I am a Muslim so if you ask me, the version told
in the Quran is the truth. But a Christian and Jew would obviously disagree.

The word used in that very sentence, which is often translated begotten, is the same word used to describe when any human got a son. You can see below, the word underlined is the same used in the Psalms, the Hebrew word 'yalad':

And Adam knew Eve his wifehttp://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H802&t=KJV; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and saidhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H559&t=KJV, I have gotten a man from the LORDhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3068&t=KJV.

And if you believe the New Testament can have been corrupted, why cannot the Qur'an have been corrupted? They both came from God in their original state, right?

 

[farhan]

True... But, it ain't really the normal thang now is it.... Although I guess what's his face from the bible walked out from a lion den unscathed allegedly. Meh, nevermind lol. Actually... Yeah there are two laws agaisnt it.... Ones called Gravity, and the other physics....

Well moving in the city & telling people,"I am messiah" isnt normal either.

I am all for miracles, its just that I dont consider them a necessary part of faith. They do work BTW. Many people around Muhammad converted to Islam just because of the majesty of Quranic Arabic.

Laws of Physics can be bent, which is the my definition of miracle.

 

[Bishadi]

from Heksesang

I'm not sure if I really get your point, Bishadi. What made Jesus, being the Messiah, different from the other prophets?

time period and message

Injeel (different): moral laws without religious homage.

Forgiveness: turn other cheek. (Comprehending that is bigger than many recognize)

re-confirmed the future 'coming of' another messenger.

From my assumption, the Islam view of a Messiah would be the same as the Jewish?

At least you shared YOUR opinion and that is a start.

So together can we both agree there be "world peace, raising fathers to flesh, equality, capable of judging, awareness, book of life, understanding, and globe aware “while HE is alive”………..?"

Ooops… did I forget……….. reveals the name of God

Is this the kind of messiah you believe is found within both (actually all three of the ladies (religions of abraham)

Also, the Scripture, the Psalms and the Gospel are all holy books of Islam. Psalms 2 describes Messiah as Son of God,

Songs share many tales but it seems best to observe anything that exists…. a son of God…. Man women child…… tree, bird……. Rocks, fish..stars, moon…

if it ‘be’....... it be of he… (otherwise we could not experience it)

You name it, Gd the pops of all of it….. such to even considered HIM separate is self prescribed hell “away from God”……(away from the garden)…… there is no isolation from God except within the minds of mankind, ever! (physical fact)

who will sit at the mountain Sion, rule the nations and break them with iron rod.

can you agree……….. zion is unknown to the world as far as location?

to expand your mind perhaps look up shambala.....

or if you want another hint, perhaps look up the pueblo Indians (Hopi) and when you’ve read their material come back and ask if you would like more.

But the person himself does little to physically break up the ‘nations’ the people are who do. (four colors of mankind)

Knowledge is what ‘a man’ can offer and the four corners of mankind: the people are who wield the sword (hence they be the judges). (remember: the last to first, first to last)

Yet, the Qur'an says that Jesus is Messiah, but he is not Son of God? What is it that I'm missing here, for this to make sense?

that many think god is other than alive in you. You are seeing existence within HIS eyes! Nothing exists that is not HIM.

What is missing is understanding! Being aware of Him at all times, actions, purpose. If each truly observed all of existence as being HIM: how many would even whisper a fib (jinn)? To know each step is ‘to’ him, how many would even take a wrong turn?

Understanding the truth of ‘life’ creates an inert responsibility unmatched. Fear of a zeus with lightning bolts sure hasn't done much for man's commitment, honesty or Love of God.

From farhan

Messiah literally means anointed (& so messenger-prophet-king). What is the basis for the rest of your claim?

Lot’s of reading from just about every faith, religion, science, philosophy and ‘interpretations’ across the globe.

Just a little homework within a life-times commitment. (a promise was made)

Most upon the world can agree, Jesus was not the last, nor was Muhammed as none of what the globes religions have shared has been fulfilled; World Peace, Equality and Understanding.

Or most purely, the greatest pursuit that all of mankind has sought: the Understanding of Life! That is the single greatest pursuit, equally sought, since the beginning of time.

The fool awaits magic! The fools think they are separate from God.

The fool believes that mankind is incapable of UNDERSTANDING!

as the fool is drunk with jinn

 

[Abdullah]

But what exactly do Islam mean with this term? The Prophets described him as the saviour. The Jews expected him to rise Israel back to it's former glory. Christians believe he was sacrificed at the cross, and rose from death, to save us from our sins.

What did the Muslims expect this special person, Messiah, to do? For what reason was he called the Messiah?

Also, I've noticed that the Gospel and the Qur'an both describes Jesus as being the Word. But, according to the Gospel, the Word was with God and was God, from the very beginning. Do the Muslims not believe that the Word was God?

Hi Heksesang,

Wellcome to the forum

You can get a good explanation of the Islamic meaning of 'Messiah' in the following link:

00:35

It elaborates a bit more on what has been allready explained by br C0de

 

[c0de]

Hi Heksesang,

Wellcome to the forum

You can get a good explanation of the Islamic meaning of 'Messiah' in the following link:

00:35

It elaborates a bit more on what has been allready explained by br C0de

btw brother, I am still waiting for your responses here:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/unreliable-ahadith-regarding-the-return-10616.html

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/no-more-messiahs-jesus-pbuh-10532.html

 

[farhan]

Christians belive that the Spirit of Truth was the Holy Spirit, with Spirit being the keyword.

There is some problems with this belief. John says a few things about SoT

John 16:12:14

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you."

What "all truth" did holy spirit guide people to (that people werent able to bear that time)? Did it speak? Did it tell anything thats yet to come? What did it take from Jesus? What did it make known?

As for the Deuteronomy 18:18, it speaks of the Jews, that a Prophet will be risen among their brethren. How do you relate this to Muhammad?

There are only Arab tribes who can be considered brethern of Jewish tribes.

The word used in that very sentence, which is often translated begotten, is the same word used to describe when any human got a son. You can see below, the word underlined is the same used in the Psalms, the Hebrew word 'yalad':

And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Yes its the same word. But I have given you some more examples. The word has been used both metaphorically & literally in the Bible.

And if you believe the New Testament can have been corrupted, why cannot the Qur'an have been corrupted? They both came from God in their original state, right?

Well, mainly based on the history of both scriptures. There still arnt two different manuscripts of Quran around. Of the Bible there are many.

 

[c0de]

Oh crap, I'm sorry Heksesang, I didn't see your post there.
I think Farhan has already covered the issues above though.

I will add that the issue about the authenticity of the Quran is much
stronger then it is for other scriptures. It is actually undisputed since
the entirety of the Quran was recorded while the Prophet was still alive.
It was codified within that same generation, and that is something no
other scripture can claim. The bible was codified 3 centuries after
Jesus PBUH for example.

p.s. About the other issues you raised, like I said, Jews, Muslims and
Christians all have their own arguments and views about those verses
from the OT and NT. I never really heard of anyone who left their own
religion and converted because of those arguments though...

 

[Heksesang]

There is some problems with this belief. John says a few things about SoT

John 16:12:14

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you."

What "all truth" did holy spirit guide people to (that people werent able to bear that time)? Did it speak? Did it tell anything thats yet to come? What did it take from Jesus? What did it make known?

The Spirit of Truth does not speak on his own. Did Muhammad never utter a word that was not from God himself? He surely must have.

He gave us all the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it was this Spirit that the Prophets foretold what was to come.

The Holy Spirit speaks only the Word of God, and Jesus was the Word. So, he brings glory to Jesus, by taking the Word, all of it, even what could not be told while Jesus walked the earth, and make it known to us.

There are only Arab tribes who can be considered brethern of Jewish tribes.

Or, the brethren could refer to Jews. The brother of a Jew, can be a Jew. Right?

Well, mainly based on the history of both scriptures. There still arnt two different manuscripts of Quran around. Of the Bible there are many.

There is only one Bible. Was it not the Prophets who wrote their books, like Muhammad wrote the Qur'an? Do you believe He did not guide the gathering of the books into the Bible, to make it His true Word?

 

[Heksesang]

Oh crap, I'm sorry Heksesang, I didn't see your post there.
I think Farhan has already covered the issues above though.

I will add that the issue about the authenticity of the Quran is much
stronger then it is for other scriptures. It is actually undisputed since
the entirety of the Quran was recorded while the Prophet was still alive.
It was codified within that same generation, and that is something no
other scripture can claim. The bible was codified 3 centuries after
Jesus PBUH for example.

p.s. About the other issues you raised, like I said, Jews, Muslims and
Christians all have their own arguments and views about those verses
from the OT and NT. I never really heard of anyone who left their own
religion and converted because of those arguments though...

The Gospel was written within years after Jesus' death and resurrection. By the same generation that lived during his time at earth.

 

[farhan]

The Gospel was written within years after Jesus' death and resurrection. By the same generation that lived during his time at earth.

Only one gospel was presumably written within a timeframe that can be considered "same generation". The rest was written by people who can very safely be considered "later generations". The cannon was codified 300 years later, & the standards for selection of a particular book were not very flattering.

Unlike NT, Quran was "dictated" by Prophet Muhammad, in his life time, to the scribes; & was recited 5 times a day, everyday, in front of almost all of the adult male population of the city. Dozens had memorized all Quran in his life time. And these trends still havent died.

 

[farhan]

The Spirit of Truth does not speak on his own. Did Muhammad never utter a word that was not from God himself? He surely must have.

I dont think its necessary to interpret it like that. And then, what if I say "yes he didnt"? Thats a side issue right now. The real question is, did HS confirm to the Biblical standards of SoT? Did it do any thing that it was prohecised to?

Spirit of Truth does not speak on his own? Well HS didnt speak at all. So what was it that it was supposed to do?

He gave us all the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it was this Spirit that the Prophets foretold what was to come.

Who gave the gift of holy spirit? The spirit of truth?

The Holy Spirit speaks only the Word of God, and Jesus was the Word. So, he brings glory to Jesus, by taking the Word, all of it, even what could not be told while Jesus walked the earth, and make it known to us.

This Christian creed stuff always gets very confusing. Lets analyse this.

1. Holy Spirit speaks (or it doesnt).
2. Onle the word of God (The word that was God, or the word that was not God, or the word that was the word of, word of God).
3. Brings glory to Jesus (Without speaking?)
4. By taking the word (again which word?)
5. Make it known to us (how?)

Or, the brethren could refer to Jews. The brother of a Jew, can be a Jew. Right?

When somebody says to Jews "from your brethren", one cant intpret it as "from within you".

There is only one Bible. Was it not the Prophets who wrote their books,

Catholics, Protestants & E.Orthodox all have bibles that vary in length. Jewish bible is obviously shorter than all three. There is no one Bible. Bible is not even a book, its a collection of books.

And no prophets didnt write their own books. Jesus didnt write gospels for example. Did Kings write Kings?

like Muhammad wrote the Qur'an?

No he didnt.

Do you believe He did not guide the gathering of the books into the Bible, to make it His true Word?

Is this belief Bibilical in origin? Something like,"God shall help you gather his word"

 

[Heksesang]

I dont think its necessary to interpret it like that. And then, what if I say "yes he didnt"? Thats a side issue right now. The real question is, did HS confirm to the Biblical standards of SoT? Did it do any thing that it was prohecised to?

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

...

But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

...

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

...

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Comforter is the Spirit of Truth, and the Comforter is the Holy Ghost, as I read it.

Spirit of Truth does not speak on his own? Well HS didnt speak at all. So what was it that it was supposed to do?

The Holy Spirit speaks through people, He does not speak on His own. Just like the Prophets spoke Word of God through the Holy Spirit, this gift was given to all of mankind who is willing to accept it.

Who gave the gift of holy spirit? The spirit of truth?

God gave this gift.

This Christian creed stuff always gets very confusing. Lets analyse this.

1. Holy Spirit speaks (or it doesnt).
2. Onle the word of God (The word that was God, or the word that was not God, or the word that was the word of, word of God).
3. Brings glory to Jesus (Without speaking?)
4. By taking the word (again which word?)
5. Make it known to us (how?)

1. The Holy Spirit speaks through others, as He did with the Prophets.
2. He only speaks the Word of God, for the Holy Spirit comes from God himself.
3. He speaks the Word of God, and Jesus is the Word.
4. The Word of God.
5. Speaks it to the people through prophecy.

When somebody says to Jews "from your brethren", one cant intpret it as "from within you".

God said the following to Aaron:

And I, behold, I have taken your brethren the Levites from among the children of Israel

The Levites was a Jewish tribe, so 'brethren' can obviously refer to Jews when He speaks to a Jew.

Catholics, Protestants & E.Orthodox all have bibles that vary in length. Jewish bible is obviously shorter than all three. There is no one Bible. Bible is not even a book, its a collection of books.

Each includes the same four Gospels, though.

And no prophets didnt write their own books. Jesus didnt write gospels for example. Did Kings write Kings?

Fair enough.

No he didn't.

Then the Qur'an is no more credible than any other book of a Prophet?

Is this belief Bibilical in origin? Something like,"God shall help you gather his word"

No, but would God let anyone construct a false book to represent His Word?

 

[Heksesang]

Only one gospel was presumably written within a timeframe that can be considered "same generation". The rest was written by people who can very safely be considered "later generations". The cannon was codified 300 years later, & the standards for selection of a particular book were not very flattering.

Unlike NT, Quran was "dictated" by Prophet Muhammad, in his life time, to the scribes; & was recited 5 times a day, everyday, in front of almost all of the adult male population of the city. Dozens had memorized all Quran in his life time. And these trends still havent died.

The four canonical Gospels (the Gospel of Matthew, Gospel of Mark, Gospel of Luke and Gospel of John) were written between 65 and 100 AD.

 

[c0de]

The four canonical Gospels (the Gospel of Matthew, Gospel of Mark, Gospel of Luke and Gospel of John) were written between 65 and 100 AD.

That would still place them out of the range of his own generation.
If his disciples were around 25-30 years of age at the time Jesus
PBUH started his ministry. Modern scholarship for the most part
accepts that the authors were not eye witnesses to Jesus's PBUH life.

Also, we are referring to codification, not authorship. That is proccess
of assembling the texts into a scripture. This did not happen until
the Council of Neceae, 300 years after.

Lastly, it is a fact that the gospels you are referring to were
originally untitled, and their authorship remains uncertain to this very day.
If you look at the wiki page (under Gospel) you will find that the word
"probably" is used a lot. The names for the gospels appear "suddenly"
around the year 180. So no one really knows who wrote them, or
when.

p.s. There are a couple of very interesting documentaries about this,
Here is one available on google video,
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2061773048178434620

 

[BlaznFattyz]

In Islam, Jesus is described as the Messiah, but I cannot find anywhere in the Qur'an which explains -why- he is described as this.

Can anyone enlighten me on this?

the quran as far as i know have no words from the prophets. if it did, as it says it honors prophets, then it would have the words of John the Baptist who was born to be a voice in the wilderness as scripture states and point out the messiah who is the Lamb of God come in the flesh to be the Saviour of the world. I think you would have to look elsewhere if you want to find the truth of who Jesus is and what the prophets and God the Father have proclaimed about the Son.

 

[bob x]

And no prophets didnt write their own books.

Yes they did. "Isaiah" was written by Isaiah, "Jeremiah" by Jeremiah, etc. (though there are some materials in the books which are thought to be later additions).