pohaikawahine
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aloha e - I'm just bookmarking this dialogue to follow it.... me ke aloha pumehana, pohaikawahine
Reform
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Welcome Fabs, so what are your thoughts about interfaith dialogue?
Shalom aleichem,
I think Interfaith dialogue is an interesting activity to engage, if enjoyed with caution and occasional restraint. It allows people to see other sides of the same coin.
That's the short answer. The longer answer begs a more precise question.
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
i'm not sure i care for your tone, "guru gadol", so take care. we have people from all streams of judaism here and mutual respect and moderation in language is strongly advised.fabs1 said:
b'shalom
bananabrain
BB, I agree. I am also waiting for an explanation of a rather unusual profile photo I saw on Fabs profile page before it was replaced with the current one (which is a very nice one).
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
even so, most reform people in my wide experience of them would not take at all kindly to being characterised as "christian".
b'shalom
bananabrain
b'shalom
bananabrain
I had to make my first comment on the forum one that people would remember
Some people are remembered for great thoughts, and others for mediocrity.
Here is the thread that I was reminded of. I would like to compare some of the ideas of Reform, Reconstructionism and Renewal. I think I have to start with a few references here.
Here is an interesting one:
http://books.google.com/books?id=xg...i=15aPSsq-N4KGkAT9mYmvBw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
It is by Michael Meyer and Gunther Plaut. Plaut wrote a beautiful version of Torah / Haftorah.
And of course there is the webpage for the Reform movement, I guess I will have to see what I can find of interest there:
http://www.urj.org/
I sort of like this simple characterization of what Reform is:
http://urj.org/about/reform/whatisreform/
I think it is neat that so prominently are women, gays and lesbians rights discussed in this description.
Oh, and of course I better include wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism
Here is an interesting one:
http://books.google.com/books?id=xg...i=15aPSsq-N4KGkAT9mYmvBw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
It is by Michael Meyer and Gunther Plaut. Plaut wrote a beautiful version of Torah / Haftorah.
And of course there is the webpage for the Reform movement, I guess I will have to see what I can find of interest there:
http://www.urj.org/
I sort of like this simple characterization of what Reform is:
http://urj.org/about/reform/whatisreform/
I think it is neat that so prominently are women, gays and lesbians rights discussed in this description.
Oh, and of course I better include wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism
Here are some of my observations to date:
1) Recon. was very unique in its ideas about chosenness, Zionism and using Temples in a multipurpose manner.
2) Renewal has been very proactive on issues such as ecokashrut, interfaith, womens and gay and lesbian equality.
Are there other issues where either of these newer denominations has developed significant innovations over Reform Judaism ?
Reform still seems unique to me in how deeply it rejected some of the aspects of traditional Judaism. In the Plaut book which I provided the linke it mentions one of the early proponents, Israel Jacobson, from 1810. What a long and rich heritage !!
I can speak more to Renewal than to Recon, but here are some issues:
Recon is strongly naturalistic although Kaplanian naturalism is no longer the norm. It views the mitzvot differently -- as folkways -- but also gives the practices of a community more weight than Reform. It sees Judaism as an "evolving religious civilization."
Renewal is in some ways more difficult because it is important to distinguish Renewal-as-denomination-in-the-making from Renewal-as-transdenominational-movement. To further confuse things, the former insists on calling itself trans- or post- denominational and there are a good number of synagogues that affiliate with it and another denomination (my own personal preference is for the latter transdenominational movement). But let's address the former since it's easier.
More than interfaith, I think it's important to acknowledge the willful syncretism in the denomination. That's been described elsewhere and so there's no need to repeat. Most central also is that it's a revival of a mysticism-for-all or at the very least, tools for mystical practice made accessible. There's also a lot of emphasis on innovation in practice including both borrowing contemplative and ecstatic practices from other traditions and mining Jewish tradition for those types of methods. I think the primary idea in Renewal is probably "don't leave God out of it." It's probably worthwhile to note, too, the reevaluation of rebbe-hasid, as a structure, containing something of value. What comes out of that tends to resemble some form of spiritual direction in which roles aren't fixed. I'd say in terms of the way it looks from place to place, there's also a lot more variety in Renewal than there is in Recon or Reform. But perhaps the easiest refence point is Aleph's statement of principles:
http://www.aleph.org/documents/AffirmationsFinal4-08.pdf
The structure of the document is instructive as to the nature of the organization since it follows the sefirot and olamot. There are also two versions: one extended and one shortened. But from the start of the shortened version the priority of the movement is clear:
"We are open to the Sacred in all of existence."
God comes first.
Also central is the idea of renewal itself. In my mind this places it very much at odds with Classical Reform, although certainly not with the Reform movement as it exists today. It is looking to renew rather than reject. And at the same time I think it's more open than the Reform movement to varying approaches to Judaism in that it's presently still presenting itself as trans-denominational and there are Reform-Renewal, Conservative-Renewal and Recon-Renewal synagogues as well as plain old Renewal synagogues. There are also members of the Orthodox community who identify with Renewal. But at that point we're starting to get away from Renewal as a forming denomination and more into Renewal as a trans-denominational movement which lacks much of a creed at all.
Renewal shares in common with Recon the idea of Judaism's evolution. For recon this is, to me, a little bit more secular than it is in Renewal.
The other side of Renewal is its activism, something it shares with the Reform movement, but I think the tone and the primary concerns are different. Renewal formed in the 60's and maintains concerns sparked by that counterculture as primary. Protecting mother earth, for example. Pacifism isn't uncommon. And there's a greater tendency that I've seen within Renewal to bring God back into that, to use more mythical language. One example of that is R' Arthur Waskow's green menorah covenant:
The Green Menorah Covenant | The Shalom Center
I think R' Waskow is most representative of the activist side of renewal. He said to some friends of mine once that the closest thing he'd had to a mystical experience is reading a good science fiction book. He's the same person who spearheaded the first Freedom Seder.
I agree and I don't consider that a positive thing. The early Reform movement was a re-skinned Protestantism. Services on Sunday, choirs, organs and so on. Most of what was uniquely Jewish was rejected. For all intents and purposes it was Protestantism sans Jesus. My greatest criticism of Reform is inevitably my greatest criticism of Renewal-the-denomination: at certain times and in certain places it ceases to feel very Jewish at all. That is of course a subjective evaluation and tempered by the fact that I'm okay with that in moderation as an intentional way to renew Jewish practice and make both God and Judaism more accessible.
-- Dauer
Recon is strongly naturalistic although Kaplanian naturalism is no longer the norm. It views the mitzvot differently -- as folkways -- but also gives the practices of a community more weight than Reform. It sees Judaism as an "evolving religious civilization."
Renewal is in some ways more difficult because it is important to distinguish Renewal-as-denomination-in-the-making from Renewal-as-transdenominational-movement. To further confuse things, the former insists on calling itself trans- or post- denominational and there are a good number of synagogues that affiliate with it and another denomination (my own personal preference is for the latter transdenominational movement). But let's address the former since it's easier.
More than interfaith, I think it's important to acknowledge the willful syncretism in the denomination. That's been described elsewhere and so there's no need to repeat. Most central also is that it's a revival of a mysticism-for-all or at the very least, tools for mystical practice made accessible. There's also a lot of emphasis on innovation in practice including both borrowing contemplative and ecstatic practices from other traditions and mining Jewish tradition for those types of methods. I think the primary idea in Renewal is probably "don't leave God out of it." It's probably worthwhile to note, too, the reevaluation of rebbe-hasid, as a structure, containing something of value. What comes out of that tends to resemble some form of spiritual direction in which roles aren't fixed. I'd say in terms of the way it looks from place to place, there's also a lot more variety in Renewal than there is in Recon or Reform. But perhaps the easiest refence point is Aleph's statement of principles:
http://www.aleph.org/documents/AffirmationsFinal4-08.pdf
The structure of the document is instructive as to the nature of the organization since it follows the sefirot and olamot. There are also two versions: one extended and one shortened. But from the start of the shortened version the priority of the movement is clear:
"We are open to the Sacred in all of existence."
God comes first.
Also central is the idea of renewal itself. In my mind this places it very much at odds with Classical Reform, although certainly not with the Reform movement as it exists today. It is looking to renew rather than reject. And at the same time I think it's more open than the Reform movement to varying approaches to Judaism in that it's presently still presenting itself as trans-denominational and there are Reform-Renewal, Conservative-Renewal and Recon-Renewal synagogues as well as plain old Renewal synagogues. There are also members of the Orthodox community who identify with Renewal. But at that point we're starting to get away from Renewal as a forming denomination and more into Renewal as a trans-denominational movement which lacks much of a creed at all.
Renewal shares in common with Recon the idea of Judaism's evolution. For recon this is, to me, a little bit more secular than it is in Renewal.
The other side of Renewal is its activism, something it shares with the Reform movement, but I think the tone and the primary concerns are different. Renewal formed in the 60's and maintains concerns sparked by that counterculture as primary. Protecting mother earth, for example. Pacifism isn't uncommon. And there's a greater tendency that I've seen within Renewal to bring God back into that, to use more mythical language. One example of that is R' Arthur Waskow's green menorah covenant:
The Green Menorah Covenant | The Shalom Center
I think R' Waskow is most representative of the activist side of renewal. He said to some friends of mine once that the closest thing he'd had to a mystical experience is reading a good science fiction book. He's the same person who spearheaded the first Freedom Seder.
I agree and I don't consider that a positive thing. The early Reform movement was a re-skinned Protestantism. Services on Sunday, choirs, organs and so on. Most of what was uniquely Jewish was rejected. For all intents and purposes it was Protestantism sans Jesus. My greatest criticism of Reform is inevitably my greatest criticism of Renewal-the-denomination: at certain times and in certain places it ceases to feel very Jewish at all. That is of course a subjective evaluation and tempered by the fact that I'm okay with that in moderation as an intentional way to renew Jewish practice and make both God and Judaism more accessible.
-- Dauer
Many interesting thoughts as usual, Dauer, but I am most struck by this one.
Isn't it amazing the power of wanting to assimilate. Your comment above, I believe, applies to the early reformers in Germany. From what I have learned ,they believed that they were first and foremost German and then Jewish. So they were willing to relegate most of their heritage for the sake of their nationality. The irony of 20th century Germany is quite remarkable in this context.
But in my view, Jewish tradition should not be measured against national allegiance. They are mutually exclusive. The issues of observance to today's Jews are much more related to practicality, belief and philosophy.
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
er... really? not in the UK - and certainly not in israel!Avi said:
b'shalom
bananabrain
BB are you saying you feel mixed allegiance between being a Jew and British citizen, this is what I was talking about ? If so, can you give examples of how this manifests ? Also, I am a bit confused by your example of Israel, are you referring to the secular movement ?
pohaikawahine
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I've been trying my best to follow these dialogues and now I am really lost. I tried to chart everything on a grid from left to right (left = liberal right = conservative) and then tried to list all the primary tenents of each. But when I started seeing reform-renewal, conservative-renewal, renewal-renewal, plan old renewal I knew this started to look like a fractal of some sort (probably not a good reference, but that is what comes to mind). Then I tried to go back to the first postings and the purpose of each dialogue on reform, renewal, etc. to see where we were trying to go.
I think that Dauer hit on one important consideration, each keeps Jews involved and to one degree or another focused on Judiasm. I know people that when asked "are you Irish (or whatever)?" and will respond "no, I am Jewish". Even people that only go to temple on high holidays very strongly say "I am Jewish" and wear symbols of this.
I am interested in Reform because (truthfully) it appears to be the only door that may open for me to convert. They are flexible enough in their practices to consider me even if my husband does not support my wanting to convert (only because he thinks it will take me away from home too much) and no other family members are involved. I am the senior member of a very large family (I have over 70 nieces and nephews) that all (or most anyway) look to me for advice and thoughts. So it is a big deal that I have chosen this particular road to walk. I know Judiasm is really a family system, but I will still have the same role in my own family whether I am Jewish or not. And whether I am ever welcomed to convert or not, this path is what I walk and it is in my heart regardless.
I am deeply engrained in ritual (that Hawaiian background) so I follow ritual for myself to remind me of what I seek. I have a mezuzah on my front door, I light the candles - I study the Torah every day - nothing big, just moving forward and learning as much as I can.
For BB, Dauer and Avi - what do you see as the common denominator in all of the various forms of Judiasm. I think that G-d, the Torah, the rebuilding of the temple, the return of the mosiach and the regathering are reflected in all forms of Judiasm (I could be wrong). If this core remains strong, seems to me that it doesn't really matter where on the scale one resides from one moment to the next as long as they keep the flame alive. In support of ritual - the lighting of the candelabrum, one candle each day, carries the idea of continuous renewal and improvement "one rises with holiness, and one does not descend" - the number of candles lit corresponds to the name of G-d 44 candles (thirty-six candles and eight shammashim) which is the numerical equivalent of the name "I shall be" and a concept that light is only possible through dialogue between cultures, not through rejection (all historical sources concerning Hanukkah are in Greek thus some of the Jewish memory is tranmitted by a language other than Hebrew, through another culture) (from Symbols of Judiasm - source Rabbi Marc-Alain Ouaknin - director of the Centre de Recherches et d'Etudes Juives in Paris and an Associate Professor at the University of Bar-Han in Israel).
Now - totally off subject - did anyone read about the young Jewish basketball player , Omri Casspi, selected in the first draft for the Sacramento Kings team - the team is owned by the Maloof brothers, a Lebanese Arab family - this is the first time, according to the papers, that an Arab sports owner has signed up a Jewish athlete. I live near Sacramento and am a Kings fan - thought I would share this news. Made the front page (full page article) of the Sacramento Bee on Sunday.
cheers to interfaith dialogue - he hawai'i au, poh
I think that Dauer hit on one important consideration, each keeps Jews involved and to one degree or another focused on Judiasm. I know people that when asked "are you Irish (or whatever)?" and will respond "no, I am Jewish". Even people that only go to temple on high holidays very strongly say "I am Jewish" and wear symbols of this.
I am interested in Reform because (truthfully) it appears to be the only door that may open for me to convert. They are flexible enough in their practices to consider me even if my husband does not support my wanting to convert (only because he thinks it will take me away from home too much) and no other family members are involved. I am the senior member of a very large family (I have over 70 nieces and nephews) that all (or most anyway) look to me for advice and thoughts. So it is a big deal that I have chosen this particular road to walk. I know Judiasm is really a family system, but I will still have the same role in my own family whether I am Jewish or not. And whether I am ever welcomed to convert or not, this path is what I walk and it is in my heart regardless.
I am deeply engrained in ritual (that Hawaiian background) so I follow ritual for myself to remind me of what I seek. I have a mezuzah on my front door, I light the candles - I study the Torah every day - nothing big, just moving forward and learning as much as I can.
For BB, Dauer and Avi - what do you see as the common denominator in all of the various forms of Judiasm. I think that G-d, the Torah, the rebuilding of the temple, the return of the mosiach and the regathering are reflected in all forms of Judiasm (I could be wrong). If this core remains strong, seems to me that it doesn't really matter where on the scale one resides from one moment to the next as long as they keep the flame alive. In support of ritual - the lighting of the candelabrum, one candle each day, carries the idea of continuous renewal and improvement "one rises with holiness, and one does not descend" - the number of candles lit corresponds to the name of G-d 44 candles (thirty-six candles and eight shammashim) which is the numerical equivalent of the name "I shall be" and a concept that light is only possible through dialogue between cultures, not through rejection (all historical sources concerning Hanukkah are in Greek thus some of the Jewish memory is tranmitted by a language other than Hebrew, through another culture) (from Symbols of Judiasm - source Rabbi Marc-Alain Ouaknin - director of the Centre de Recherches et d'Etudes Juives in Paris and an Associate Professor at the University of Bar-Han in Israel).
Now - totally off subject - did anyone read about the young Jewish basketball player , Omri Casspi, selected in the first draft for the Sacramento Kings team - the team is owned by the Maloof brothers, a Lebanese Arab family - this is the first time, according to the papers, that an Arab sports owner has signed up a Jewish athlete. I live near Sacramento and am a Kings fan - thought I would share this news. Made the front page (full page article) of the Sacramento Bee on Sunday.
cheers to interfaith dialogue - he hawai'i au, poh
To add a little to the discussion... I stop by a congregation occasionally and they call themselves liberal/independent. Depending on the Friday night it seems to me you can encounter anything from Renewal to Reconstruction to Reform service...
JIRS: Bethesda Jewish Congregation
Bethesda Jewish Congregation - An Independent Liberal Synagogue - Home
For more description:Service Schedule[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]
First Friday of the Month - N'tivim L'Shabbat Music Service at 8:00pm[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Second Friday of the Month - Shabbat Evening Service at 8:00pm[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Third Friday of the Month - Simchah B'Shabbat All-Music w/Band Service at 8:00pm (July & August - regular evening service)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Fourth Friday of the Month[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Tot Shabbat at 6:30pm[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Meditation Service at 8:00pm[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Fifth Fridays - Shabbat Evening Service at 8:00pm[/FONT]
JIRS: Bethesda Jewish Congregation
Bethesda Jewish Congregation - An Independent Liberal Synagogue - Home
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
well, mixed in the sense that i feel both, but they are rarely in conflict, let alone exclusive, except in terms of british working life culture usually involving the pub on friday night. when i am abroad, particularly with other jews or in israel, i am aware of how british and specifically english and a londoner i am.
one of the things that annoys me most is the british custom of singing the national anthem at weddings, which seems like a protestation of how loyal we are, as if we need to prove it.
b'shalom
bananabrain
one of the things that annoys me most is the british custom of singing the national anthem at weddings, which seems like a protestation of how loyal we are, as if we need to prove it.
b'shalom
bananabrain
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