Christian Interpretation of the OT

[lunamoth]

Tis hilarious to me the number of Christians that pick and choose as well. The ones that don't think love your neighbor as yourself is important, or love your enemy, or these things and more you shall do...tons of quotes that many wish to ignore...I am not alone.

But I think there are alternatives other than 'a literal reading of all the Bible' and 'pick n choose what suits me.' We can't read the Bible without interpreting it. The question then is, how do we interpret it. Muslims and Baha'is interpret the NT in manner very different from Christians, sects within Christianity have different interpretations.

But, I have to agree with Thomas that if you strip away most of the main doctrines you just don't have full Christianity.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

... if you strip away most of the main doctrines you just don't have full Christianity.

But Christians have already stripped away most of the OT.

Moreover, most of what we think of as "Christianity" is man-made doctrine.

 

[lunamoth]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

But Christians have already stripped away most of the OT.

What do you mean?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

What do you mean?

What Christians follow the moral laws and dietary laws spelled out in the OT?

 

[lunamoth]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

What Christians follow the moral laws spelled out in the OT?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'moral laws.' There are lots of laws in the OT, and there are different kinds of laws. And the vast majority of them were meant for Jews only. Things like the ten commandments are certainly part of Christian morality.

And yes, while Christianity is rooted in the OT and would not even make sense without the OT, Christians interpret the OT through the lens of the experience of Christ. That colors our whole interpretation.

It does not mean that Jews don't understand their own scripture. It means we use a different lens, and yes this is interpretation, but not willy-nilly interpretation. No more so than midrash and the talmud could be considered pick n choose.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'moral laws.' /quote]
How about this one:
"A woman must not wear men's clothing...
for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this."
~Deuteronomy 22:5

Not very ambiguous, is it?
You're in trouble if you wear jeans.

And yes, while Christianity is rooted in the OT and would not even make sense without the OT, Christians interpret the OT through the lens of the experience of Christ. That colors our whole interpretation.

I agree. So when did Christians decide some of these OT precepts were no longer in effect?

 

[lunamoth]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'moral laws.' /quote]
How about this one:
"A woman must not wear men's clothing...for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this." (Deuteronomy 22:5)
You're in trouble if you wear jeans.

Not very ambiguous, is it? When did Christians decide these OT precepts were no longer in effect?

They were never in effect for Christians, at least not after James and Paul worked that out (circumcision of the heart and all that). As I said above, many such laws were just for the Hebrews. I don't know how they work them all out today...I'm sure they still follow many.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

They were never in effect for Christians, at least not after James and Paul worked that out ...

So Christians are off the hook with regard to the 10 Commandments? Those were also never in effect for Christians?

Where does one draw the line?

 

[lunamoth]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

So Christians are off the hook with regard to the 10 Commandments? Those were also never in effect for Christians?

Where does one draw the line?

Well, the greatest commandments of Love God and Love your neighbor pretty much include all those ten, and Jesus certainly gave his full endorsement to those two.

 

[lunamoth]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

Moreover, most of what we think of as "Christianity" is man-made doctrine.

I would not put it that way. Most of what we think of as Christianity is how the Church tries to live out the example and hope that we find in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[GlorytoGod]

John 1:17 (New International Version)

17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Grace and truth all the way

 

[Netti-Netti]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

I would not put it that way. Most of what we think of as Christianity is how the Church tries to live out the example and hope that we find in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The Church may mean well, but that doesn't change the fact that man-made doctrine has pervaded Christendom in large degree to the exclusion of Biblical precepts.

To get back to whether Christians should apply the OT, if I may quote some scripture at you:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ~Matthew 5:19

​

If you include all the Levitical laws among the lesser rules, one could say the average Christian is in big trouble.

 

[seattlegal]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

The Church may mean well, but that doesn't change the fact that man-made doctrine has pervaded Christendom in large degree to the exclusion of Biblical precepts.

To get back to whether Christians should apply the OT, if I may quote some scripture at you:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ~Matthew 5:19

​

If you include all the Levitical laws among the lesser rules, one could say the average Christian is in big trouble.

Jesus said:

Matthew 23
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of [q] mint, dill, and cumin, [r] yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, (V) mercy, and faith. These things should have been done without neglecting the others. 24 Blind guides! (W) You strain out a gnat, yet gulp down a camel!

25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed [s] and self-indulgence! (X) 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, [t] so the outside of it [u] may also become clean.
27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, (Y) which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones and every impurity. 28 In the same way, on the outside you seem righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 and you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we wouldn't have taken part with them in shedding the prophets' blood.' [v] 31 You therefore testify against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' sins! (Z) [w] 33 "Snakes! Brood of vipers! How can you escape being condemned to hell? (AA) [x] 34 This is why I am sending you prophets, (AB) sages, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues (AC) and hound from town to town. 35 So all the righteous blood shed on the earth will be charged to you, [y] from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, (AD) son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. (AE) 36 I assure you: All these things will come on this generation! (AF)​

Notice what Jesus called the more important?

yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, (V) mercy, and faith.​

The smaller details of the law leads to death, because we are imperfect human beings who cannot always be perfect, and would be condemned by the law. Mercy, faith, and justice, and forgiveness leads to life...not being condemned by the smaller details of the law.

 

[seattlegal]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'moral laws.'

How about this one:
"A woman must not wear men's clothing...
for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this."
~Deuteronomy 22:5

Not very ambiguous, is it?
You're in trouble if you wear jeans.

Hmm. I just went out to buy a pair of jeans earlier this week. Since I couldn't find any that fit, I thought I'd try a dress. Even trying on the most shapeless "black sack" dress on the rack made me look like a tart.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. {Tying it into my previous post--we'll all eventually be damned by the law if it were not for mercy.}

One might choose to interpret this law as a woman who "wears" an unbecoming/negatively expressed animus attitude (associated with maleness) as being detestable...

 

[Dondi]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

The Church may mean well, but that doesn't change the fact that man-made doctrine has pervaded Christendom in large degree to the exclusion of Biblical precepts.

To get back to whether Christians should apply the OT, if I may quote some scripture at you:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ~Matthew 5:19

​

If you include all the Levitical laws among the lesser rules, one could say the average Christian is in big trouble.

Keep in mind that at the time of this passage, the Jews Jesus is talking to are still under the Law. His audience was not Gentile. So what He is teaching in the Sermon on the Mount is that the Law goes beyond mere adherance. There is an attitude one must have in obedience to God. For example, in Matt. 5:27-28, Jesus explains that the spirit of the Law goes beyond the mere commandment to not commit adultery, but that the breaking of the Law begins in the heart.

The plight of the Jews in the OT ought to tell you that we cannot keep the Law, for over and over again they had gotten in trouble because they disobeyed God time and again, leading them eventually to exile.

What Jesus frees us is from the bondage of the Law, not that we shouldn't keep it, but that through the Eternal Spirit, we can obey God in our hearts. The Fruit of the Spirit will work out the intent of the Law (Galatians 5:22-23). And this way, the Gentiles are not bound to the precepts of the Jewish Law, but by the law implanted in our hearts (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

 

[Dondi]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

Hmm. I just went out to buy a pair of jeans earlier this week. Since I couldn't find any that fit, I thought I'd try a dress. Even trying on the most shapeless "black sack" dress on the rack made me look like a tart.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. {Tying it into my previous post--we'll all eventually be damned by the law if it were not for mercy.}

One might choose to interpret this law as a woman who "wears" an unbecoming/negatively expressed animus attitude (associated with maleness) as being detestable...

You know, this is such a minor debate because again one must look into the spirit of the intent of the Law. Basically women should not look like men and visa versa. I defy any man to put on a pair of woman's slacks and feel masculine about it.

 

[wil]

This is just something I was contemplating during my readings this morning.

Thomas a few times recently refers to my thinking as Bhuddist, and most recently putting the head of Jesus on Bhudda or some such... While I've met some Bhuddist, have a friend who moved away and became a monk, I've only studied it very little, I think there were 8 noble paths and 4 truths or something like that but I don't know what they are...maybe I become Bhuddist, and piss of Bhuddists instead of being Christian and pissing off Christians.

Back to the Old Testament. I just love that moniker...we've got the New, you are stuck with the Old, doesn't that just say it all? We rearranged the Jewish books so instead of ending on a good note, they end on a bad note...all to make the Good News seem so refreshing and a solution.

G!d of the old full of rules and a plague on your family...lovnig G!d we have...come on over and play with us.

I've got to admit I am of that ilk. When I look at the OT and see the vengeful wrathful G!d I look to the metaphysical to find the story behind it. When G!d instructs the 'good guys' to go in and slaughter the 'bad guys' and when they do, but don't kill all the women and children and elderly G!d says go back and finish them off every last one, except the virgins... Believe me, that ain't my G!d, and I look for a deeper meaning to it all. To me when the writers wrote stuff like that that is no different than using the name of G!d to slaughter Jews of the past, or the Crusades or declaring Allah says to fly the planes into the towers...man creating a story to justify actions and using G!d as the scapegoat instead of 'the Devil made me do it' (another scapegoat for man)

So what do a I truly think? That Judaism is salvation for Jews. Those with ears heard, and understand the glory of G!d in that text and in that tradition... Just as Hinduism is for Hindu's, Bhuddism for Bhuddists, Paganism for Pagans. I think the divine has an amazing way of finding a way that speaks to our hearts to bring us to connection with spirit.

For all of us that couldn't find an understanding in any of those traditions, G!d had to use another language, another tradition, and for us he sent a Son, a spokeman. Still hasn't captured the globe yet so the Koran was sent, and then the Bahaulla...G!d is nothing if not persistent in insisting that we discover his grace through a channel that suits us.

Life is good.

 

[Dondi]

For all of us that couldn't find an understanding in any of those traditions, G!d had to use another language, another tradition, and for us he sent a Son, a spokeman. Still hasn't captured the globe yet so the Koran was sent, and then the Bahaulla...G!d is nothing if not persistent in insisting that we discover his grace through a channel that suits us.

Life is good.

Unfortunately, prophet's audiences seem bent in killing each other off.

 

[Joedjr]

Re: Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

The Church may mean well, but that doesn't change the fact that man-made doctrine has pervaded Christendom in large degree to the exclusion of Biblical precepts.

To get back to whether Christians should apply the OT, if I may quote some scripture at you:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ~Matthew 5:19
​

​

A greater great or a lesser of a great. I agree it's perplexing the combining of the OT and NT in the Christian Bible. There are plenty of "outs" for the Christian not to have to follow the OT. The requirement's for gentiles from acts, the seven laws of Noah or just that we are not Jews. Netti-Netti quotes from Matthew here and seems both groups will be in heaven. But it seems there will be a difference. Why not try to keep things right?

 

[Dream]

Weird. I was just posting about this in another thread. http://www.interfaith.org/forum/the-sacred-meaning-of-the-10957.html post # 20. To spare you from reading it, its an exploration of the words 'through a glass darkly'.