Will God Judge us When we die ?

[nativeastral]

l have a t-shirt which states 'thank g-d l know nothing' , its worn out with use but still as fresh as a daisy.

 

[soleil10]

That's a very nice, huggy-feely interpretation, Soleil. Unfortunately, it overlooks the entire Revelation of Jesus Christ which indicates things like, oh, the sky rolling up like a scroll, great earthquakes, mountains crumbling, etc. Or maybe those are figurative earthquakes? And figurative mountains crumbling to the figurative ground? And maybe the angels were speaking figuratively when they said that Jesus would return the same way that he left (into the sky), which was figuratively similar to how Elijah was taken to heaven in a chariot of fire.
Your interpretation has too much of the scent o' theology to it for me, friend. I think I'll stick to the Bible.

OK let stick to the bible. Now tell me how Elijah came back. Did he come back on a chariot of fire. Yes or No ?

This answer is NOOOOOOO !

He came back as John the Baptist. Jesus said that Elijah came back and it was John the Baptist. Check it out I n t h e B i b l e.....

God said at the time of Noah that he will destory the earth. Did he do it ? No.

May be all these Star War scenarios are the huggy feeling ones and far from the reality of what really happened. Real people going through real challenges and struggles.

 

[spiritual learner]

Yeas indeed, God created and designed everything, including the laws of the universe...He is an unchanging God...He is consistent...He will continue to "operate"(for lack of a better word) in accordance with the perfect laws He created.

 

[Marsh]

OK let stick to the bible. Now tell me how Elijah came back. Did he come back on a chariot of fire. Yes or No ?

This answer is NOOOOOOO !

He came back as John the Baptist. Jesus said that Elijah came back and it was John the Baptist. Check it out I n t h e B i b l e.....

God said at the time of Noah that he will destory the earth. Did he do it ? No.

May be all these Star War scenarios are the huggy feeling ones and far from the reality of what really happened. Real people going through real challenges and struggles.

Did God ever say he was going to send Elijah back on a chariot of fire?

Did God say that he was going to destroy the Earth? Or did he say this:

"5 The Lord saw how bad the sins of man had become on the earth. All of the thoughts in his heart were always directed only toward what was evil. 6 The Lord was very sad that he had made man on the earth. His heart was filled with pain. 7 So the Lord said, "I created man on the earth. But I will wipe them out. I will destroy people and animals alike. I will also destroy the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air. I am very sad that I have made man."

You'd better check that Bible of yours again, Soleil; I think it may have sprung a couple of leaks!

 

[soleil10]

Did God ever say he was going to send Elijah back on a chariot of fire?
Did God say that he was going to destroy the Earth? Or did he say this:
You'd better check that Bible of yours again, Soleil; I think it may have sprung a couple of leaks!

In Malachi 4: 5-6 it says "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the lord comes ".

Jewish people expected Elijah to come back in a similar way that he left. They did not expect that someone like John the baptist would be Elijah. The scribes where asking, where is Elijah ?

In the same way people are expecting Jesus to come down from heaven himself.

To make things worse, John the Baptist denied that he was Elijah. He did not come directly form heaven. The point I am trying to make is that people seem to always expect these wondrous, miraculous phenomenas and the reality happened in real life through real people.

That is the issue

 

[Marsh]

In Malachi 4: 5-6 it says "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the lord comes ".

Jewish people expected Elijah to come back in a similar way that he left. They did not expect that someone like John the baptist would be Elijah. The scribes where asking, where is Elijah ?

In the same way people are expecting Jesus to come down from heaven himself.

To make things worse, John the Baptist denied that he was Elijah. He did not come directly form heaven. The point I am trying to make is that people seem to always expect these wondrous, miraculous phenomenas and the reality happened in real life through real people.

That is the issue

How do you know that Elijah the prophet will not still return, Soleil? During the time of the Beast's reign, two witnesses are to prophesy for 1260 days. At least one of them is able to call down fire from the sky. Sound familiar? John wasn't Elijah; he was John. In one gospel, Jesus says something along the lines of, "If you'll have it, he was the Elijah that was to come." In another, Jesus says something like "John came in the spirit and power of Elijah." Elijah also speaks with Jesus during his transfiguration, does he not? The issue of whether John=Elijah is not clear-cut; it is a mystery, and why shouldn't people be allowed to ponder it, rather than to be forced to admit that since it doesn't follow what scientists say is possible, it isn't the way things are?

That, to me, is the issue

 

[Faithfulservant]

I believe that Elijah will be one of two witnesses at the wailing wall spoken in Revelation... The bibles story is not over yet. Close.. but not yet.

 

[soleil10]

How do you know that Elijah the prophet will not still return, Soleil? During the time of the Beast's reign, two witnesses are to prophesy for 1260 days. At least one of them is able to call down fire from the sky. Sound familiar? John wasn't Elijah; he was John. In one gospel, Jesus says something along the lines of, "If you'll have it, he was the Elijah that was to come." In another, Jesus says something like "John came in the spirit and power of Elijah."

Thank you Marsh, you made the point I was going to make. ELijah did not come back himself physically from "heaven" but someone born on earth took on his mission. I do not see it has a mystery. Jesus came in the mission as a second Adam. It was not Adam that came back.

In the same vein, the following phenomenas prophesized for the last days can be explained.
1) The heavens and the earth will be destroyed and a new heaven and a new earth established
2)Heaven and earth wil be judjed by fire
3)We will meet the lord in the air
4)The sun and moon will darkened and the stars fall from heaven

People did not recognized Jesus because they were expecting magical events meanwhile he was right there and they not only did not recognize him but rejected him and crucified him.

Elijah also speaks with Jesus during his transfiguration, does he not? The issue of wether John=Elijah is not clear-cut; it is a mystery, and why shouldn't people be allowed to ponder it, rather than to be forced to admit that since it doesn't follow what scientists say is possible, it isn't the way things are?
That, to me, is the issue

No one says that you cannot ponder on interpreting the content of the bible. You were telling me earlier that I should stick to the bible and not interpret it "figuratively" (4 times).

No I do not believe the stars will fall from the sky. Can you even imagine it ?

No I do not believe people will evaporate instantly. Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Abraham,Noah, Jacob, Esau, Moses etc..etc.. were real people going through real trials of faith and specific missions. Then suddenly, everything will change and be like hollywood star war phenomenas ???

Based on what happened before in the old and new testament, I feel much more confident to say that these phenomenas have clear interpretations founded on what the meaning of the last days are.

 

[winner08]

Do you think a God of love will allow them to send his children to hell for eternity ?

No soleil10. I do not think a God of love will allow them to send His children to hell for eternity.

I know your meaning of hell unscriptual and therefore such a place does not exsit. It is just another one of man's teachings and traditions, not the Lords. Your right If there was such a place God would not send anyone to suffer for eternity. God is pure love. You believe in hell don't you?? If so How do you worship and love and praise a god of pure love and yet he will send most of his creation of humans to hell to be tortured and burned for all eternity. Trillions and billions and millions of yrs. My mind can not even coperhend that number can yours?

Do you believe that Gods knows the END from the BEGINNING?? If so maby you can help me understand something. If God does know the end from the beginning, then he would know before he created humanity which persons would go to hell before he created them right. Yet he still created them knowing that they would be tortured for all eternity. That to me does not sound like a god of love. Like I said maby you can help me understand this.

Darren

 

[soleil10]

No soleil10. I do not think a God of love will allow them to send His children to hell for eternity.

I agree. That is what I have being saying many times. We judge ourselves thriugh our own actions.

I know your meaning of hell unscriptual and therefore such a place does not exsit. It is just another one of man's teachings and traditions, not the Lords. Your right If there was such a place God would not send anyone to suffer for eternity.

Being separated from God's love is hell. Just listen to the news, it is hell on earth. We experience lack of true love.

You use the word "lords" Is this because you believe in multi gods ?

God is pure love. You believe in hell don't you?? If so How do you worship and love and praise a god of pure love and yet he will send most of his creation of humans to hell to be tortured and burned for all eternity. Trillions and billions and millions of yrs. My mind can not even coperhend that number can yours?

I agree with you

Do you believe that Gods knows the END from the BEGINNING??

God's will and purpose will never change but man was created will a free will to respond. True love cannot exist without free will and for love to exist it has to be return. It takes 2. No one can be happy saying all day long, I love myself. Love needs to be return. God has worked relentlessly to bring back his children to him because the fell away during the human fall.[/quote]

If so maby you can help me understand something. If God does know the end from the beginning, then he would know before he created humanity which persons would go to hell before he created them right. Yet he still created them knowing that they would be tortured for all eternity. That to me does not sound like a god of love. Like I said maby you can help me understand this.Darren

God does not send anyone to hell. We are the one doing it to ourselves.

There is a way out of hell but this is another discussion.

 

[Marsh]

Thank you Marsh, you made the point I was going to make. ELijah did not come back himself physically from "heaven" but someone born on earth took on his mission. I do not see it has a mystery. Jesus came in the mission as a second Adam. It was not Adam that came back.

In the same vein, the following phenomenas prophesized for the last days can be explained.
1) The heavens and the earth will be destroyed and a new heaven and a new earth established
2)Heaven and earth wil be judjed by fire
3)We will meet the lord in the air
4)The sun and moon will darkened and the stars fall from heaven

People did not recognized Jesus because they were expecting magical events meanwhile he was right there and they not only did not recognize him but rejected him and crucified him.



No one says that you cannot ponder on interpreting the content of the bible. You were telling me earlier that I should stick to the bible and not interpret it "figuratively" (4 times).

No I do not believe the stars will fall from the sky. Can you even imagine it ?

No I do not believe people will evaporate instantly. Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Abraham,Noah, Jacob, Esau, Moses etc..etc.. were real people going through real trials of faith and specific missions. Then suddenly, everything will change and be like hollywood star war phenomenas ???

Based on what happened before in the old and new testament, I feel much more confident to say that these phenomenas have clear interpretations founded on what the meaning of the last days are.

*sigh*

Actually, I did not make that point at all, Soleil; you just aren't listening. Elijah-- not John-- Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus and spoke with him during his transfiguration. Are you following so far?

The prophecy of the two witnesses concerns the time of the end--- which has not come yet. If Elijah is one of those witnesses, then it's not that he's coming back figuratively, but physically, and later. Still with me?

There was never a prophecy that Adam would return. If you believe that Jesus returned as a second Adam (which I don't think was Paul's intention at all, but ok) then that's fine, but it's far different than Malachi's prophecy concerning Elijah.

Jesus did perform many "magical" events, Soleil. Stuff like walking on water, and turning a small amount of food into a large amount of food, and turning water into wine, etc. These were not figurative events, were they? They are described as literal events, so why not believe they are literal events?

Can I imagine stars falling out of the sky? Yes. You mean you can't? Or you won't?

Can you imagine Jesus walking toward you on top of a lake? Or did that not happen, because it's not rational enough?

You keep coming back to the idea of "real people going through real trials," and I suppose that's where everyone is supposed to say, "Yeah, right on!" and then break into a chorus of John Lennon's Working Class Hero. Frankly, the connection you're making does not make sense, because you're assuming that the only thing that's real is the thing you can see with your eyes. Faith isn't that easy, friend. So pardon me if the metaphysics of the Bible make sense to me, but they do, and the implication that my beliefs are less than yours because they are not in line with science today doesn't bother me at all. I know it's an arrogant thing for me to say, but based on what I've heard so far it truly seems to me that, when it comes to the Bible, you have much knowledge but not so much understanding.

 

[soleil10]

*sigh*Actually, I did not make that point at all, Soleil; you just aren't listening. Elijah-- not John--

Marsh, you wrote "John wasn't Elijah; he was John. In one gospel, Jesus says something along the lines of, "If you'll have it, he was the Elijah that was to come." In another, Jesus says something like "John came in the spirit and power of Elijah"

That is what I am trying to say. Elijah did not come back physically from the spirit world. His spirit was with John. They had a similar mission.

*Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus and spoke with him during his transfiguration. Are you following so far?[/qwote]

I have no problem with that. Jesus was not limited by a fallen nature. His 5 spiritual senses were available to him. Like A&E before their fall, he could communicate with the spiritual world.

*The prophecy of the two witnesses concerns the time of the end--- which has not come yet. If Elijah is one of those witnesses, then it's not that he's coming back figuratively, but physically, and later. Still with me?

Here I am not with you. I do not believe decomposed physical bodies will come back life on earth. They carry our spirit while we are alive on earth. Once they die, they have fulfill their function.

*There was never a prophecy that Adam would return. If you believe that Jesus returned as a second Adam (which I don't think was Paul's intention at all, but ok) then that's fine, but it's far different than Malachi's prophecy concerning Elijah.

Since Adam & Eve fell, only the Messiah has the new sinless seed that can remove the original sin. Jesus is not Adam himself. The first family on earth fell away from God.

*Jesus did perform many "magical" events, Soleil. Stuff like walking on water, and turning a small amount of food into a large amount of food, and turning water into wine, etc. These were not figurative events, were they? They are described as literal events, so why not believe they are literal events? Can you imagine Jesus walking toward you on top of a lake? Or did that not happen, because it's not rational enough?

Concerning the multiplication of fish and bread. I believe that some people brought food for their family. They followed the example of this young man who shared what he had. The miracle is that when everybdy share there is more than what we need. For the walking on water and the water change to wine, I can go with it.

*Can I imagine stars falling out of the sky? Yes. You mean you can't? Or you won't?

I cant

*You keep coming back to the idea of "real people going through real trials," and I suppose that's where everyone is supposed to say, "Yeah, right on!" and then break into a chorus of John Lennon's Working Class Hero. Frankly, the connection you're making does not make sense, because you're assuming that the only thing that's real is the thing you can see with your eyes. Faith isn't that easy, friend. So pardon me if the metaphysics of the Bible make sense to me, but they do, and the implication that my beliefs are less than yours because they are not in line with science today doesn't bother me at all. I know it's an arrogant thing for me to say, but based on what I've heard so far it truly seems to me that, when it comes to the Bible, you have much knowledge but not so much understanding.

Throughout the bible we see plenty of stories of people going through real trials, individually or with their siblings or as a family or even a nation.

On the other end, prophecies of the futur are magical. Theses events are usually symbolically written..
For example: the rapture when people suddenly evaporate or Jesus coming on clouds (like a thief in the night).

 

[Azure24]

Here I am not with you. I do not believe decomposed physical bodies will come back life on earth. They carry our spirit while we are alive on earth. Once they die, they have fulfill their function.

Heresy alert!! "SPIRIT" & "SOUL" are not the same!!

When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:46, Psa. 104:24-30). The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and the "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death. Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21). There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies. The spirit "gives life." No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be. There are no exceptions. If there are, where is the Scripture? A dead person cannot experience anything-not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fabled hell. This is a serious thing. Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of faith is sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, then it is a sin to teach it.

You are trying to destroy the concept of Christ's resurrection!!

What did Paul say....

"Now if there is no RESURRECTION of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith" (I Cor. 15:14-15). The very salvation of mankind rests on the resurrection.

What happen's to the dead. God (not me but God) likens death to sleep...

"The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16)

"Sleep". The dead have no perception...

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6).

Again:

" ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).

Concerning the multiplication of fish and bread. I believe that some people brought food for their family. They followed the example of this young man who shared what he had. The miracle is that when everybdy share there is more than what we need. For the walking on water and the water change to wine, I can go with it.

How about the healing of the sick? And the most important Mircale of all, The Resurrection? (keep in mind Jesus resurrected Lazarus from the dead also) ....What you mentioned (your explanation) regarding the bread is hardly a Miracle is it...

 

[17th Angel]

Depends in what context.... If you were like in the middle of freaking nowhere... for days and then out of nowhere... Oh looks, some breads!!! I think you'd class that as a miracle.... :/

Or the starving children in Africa... A little bread to them can be a big miracle... But, to you? One of the lucky ones... What is bread.... but something boring and dull that you sometimes partake in with a nice soup or as fresh toast when you wake.... We underestimate and take so much for granted....

 

[Marsh]

Here I am not with you. I do not believe decomposed physical bodies will come back life on earth. They carry our spirit while we are alive on earth. Once they die, they have fulfill their function....

Concerning the multiplication of fish and bread. I believe that some people brought food for their family. They followed the example of this young man who shared what he had. The miracle is that when everybdy share there is more than what we need. For the walking on water and the water change to wine, I can go with it....

On the other end, prophecies of the futur are magical. Theses events are usually symbolically written..
For example: the rapture when people suddenly evaporate or Jesus coming on clouds (like a thief in the night).

You sound confused, Soleil. It seems like you want to assert that miraculous event all have a perfectly normal explanation, but then when you come to something like walking on water that the science you believe in can't explain, you concede and "go with it." But how is it that you can concede to some miraculous events and summarily dismiss all others as being symbolic without considering that they might be literal?

Again, you can't imagine the literal fulfillment prophecies, or you won't? You answered "can't" way too quickly to have really considered the question. No good scientist goes exploring with the results already decided upon.

I'd like to point out that prophecy is not usually symbolically written in the old testament; it's sometimes symbolically written, and sometimes perfectly literal. Let's be careful with our generalizations, yeah?

 

[soleil10]

You sound confused, Soleil. It seems like you want to assert that miraculous event all have a perfectly normal explanation, but then when you come to something like walking on water that the science you believe in can't explain, you concede and "go with it." But how is it that you can concede to some miraculous events and summarily dismiss all others as being symbolic without considering that they might be literal?

I am just being careful. I am more inclined to believe miracles when the causes are spirituals and less inclined when they are physical.
Jesus did not replace missing harms or legs. Everything follows God's spiritual or physical laws.

Again, you can't imagine the literal fulfillment prophecies, or you won't? You answered "can't" way too quickly to have really considered the question. No good scientist goes exploring with the results already decided upon.

Often in the bible there are contradictory prophecies because fallen man can go one way or the opposite way. For Jesus, they were 2 kinds of prophecies: Prophecies of Glory and prophecies of Suffering.

I'd like to point out that prophecy is not usually symbolically written in the old testament; it's sometimes symbolically written, and sometimes perfectly literal. Let's be careful with our generalizations, yeah?

Agreed

 

[Marsh]

Often in the bible there are contradictory prophecies because fallen man can go one way or the opposite way. For Jesus, they were 2 kinds of prophecies: Prophecies of Glory and prophecies of Suffering.

That's because Jesus suffered before he was raised to glory, yeah?

 

[soleil10]

That's because Jesus suffered before he was raised to glory, yeah?

I heard that before. No, Jesus was supposed to be received on earth in Glory as the Messiah, not end up alone on a cros netx to two bandits. Just imagind, the criminal on the right is the only person in the whole world who recognized Jesus as the Messiah publicly until right before he died.

That man is key in Jesus resurrection. Jesus needed at least one person on earth to show faith in him until the end.

Jesus told him. You will be in paradise today with me. Thank God for that man. At the end of the day, we never know who will really do God's will.

The cross was such a tragedy and broke God's heart so much. We cannot imagine.

He would have been in Glory in heaven too regardless,

 

[Marsh]

I heard that before. No, Jesus was supposed to be received on earth in Glory as the Messiah, not end up alone on a cros netx to two bandits. Just imagind, the criminal on the right is the only person in the whole world who recognized Jesus as the Messiah publicly until right before he died.

Peter acknowledged Jesus as the messiah long before the day of crucifixion.

Jesus said that he came to suffer, die, and be resurrected long before the day of crucifixion.

Isaiah prophesized that the messiah would suffer, thousands of years before the crucifixion.

Do you even own a Bible?

 

[soleil10]

Peter acknowledged Jesus as the messiah long before the day of crucifixion.

At the moment of the crucifixion, Peter denied Jesus 3 times and hide. In the last moment of the cross, only the thief on the right supported Jesus.

Jesus said that he came to suffer, die, and be resurrected long before the day of crucifixion.

Once he changed course, yes Before that he proclaimed the Kingdom is at hand.

Isaiah prophesized that the messiah would suffer, thousands of years before the crucifixion.

Isaiah 53 predicted the Messiah's suffering and death but there are also verses in the Bible which prophesy that the Messiah will come as the Son of God and the King of kings and bring about the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. These prophecies appear in Isaiah 9, 11, and 60, in other verses in the Old Testament, and in Luke 1:31-33.

When God first created man, he created him to grow to perfection only by man's completing a share of responsibility. Man can either accomplish his responsibility, as God wants him to do, or to the contrary, he can fail to accomplish it. Accordingly, it was necessary that God give two kinds of prophecies regarding the fulfillment of His Will.

It is God's responsibility to send the Messiah, but it is man's responsibility to believe in him. Unfortunately, by not accepting Jesus, the Israelites failed to fulfill their responsibility; they did not fulfill God's primary prophecies for the Messiah's coming, which are in Isaiah 9, 11, and 60 and Luke 1:31-33, but to the contrary, carried out the alternative or secondary prophecy of the suffering Messiah, in Isaiah 53.

When Jesus was asked to read in the synagogue in (Carpaneum I believe), He picked Isaiah 60, He did not pick Isaiah 53. He wanted people to understand who he was and receive him.

Do you even own a Bible?

I do