Can we bargain with God ?

[dailogue is the best]

Yes we do. From the beginning with Adam & Eve who did not obey God's commandement. We can see clearly in the bible that when God's chosen figures( representing all mankind) fail, God'' providence is delayed. When they succeed God's providence moves foward.

Well, Soleil10, now, I am understanding you better. You want to say that God's will is done when His Words are really practised. Then,I think there is a misunderstanding about the meaning of "God's will"...

Now, let's focus on the story of Adam and Eve. Most people misunderstand this story, and its interpretation...

God knew in advance that Adam and Eve were going to disobey Him as He knows in advance all the peoples that were going to disobey Him since the creation of the first man. He is omniscient.

Well, Adam and Eve didnt fail. They were just passing a training period. This training period is a lesson to all of us. God explained to Adam and Eve evrything: the paradise( a symbole of being away from Satan), the temptation (the tree which is a symbole of the tempatations that exist in this world), and the Satan (the enemy that we should be cautious of all the time). Hence, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God while they were still in the training period, their disobeyment wasnt a sin as any umployee is not punished for a mistake he/she does while he/she is still undertaking a training period. God let Adam and Eve went this training period to teach us clear lesson: that if we surrender to the temptation and the Satan's whisper we will lose.

Hence, as we see, Adam and Eve arent sinners. And God's plan was done, and it wasnt delayed. God's purpose behind creating us is to show us mercy and love. That lesson of Adam and Eve was a clear message from God to all of us: I showed you the wrong, and the right. If you follow the right, you live in paradise (esp inside), and if you follow the wrong, you will suffer (esp inside). You are created to see whom among you is going to be connected to me, and follow my commandments from those who will turn themselves away from me.

God's will is rarely done. This is why, there is so much suffering. Look at the world. Is there one nation doing God's will that God can clain as His own. God does not even own one nation. Even in America, God is becoming a four letter words in our schools.

I think you wanted to say that God's commandents are rarely followed. But God's will, soleil10, is always done.

Now, Soleil10, let me show you how I understand you understand "God's will", and correct me if I am mistaken. For you, God's will is all the time connected with absolute goodness. For you, since the world now is in trouble, this is not God's will, and that people has deviated from God's will.

Well, I will try to simplify for you what God's will really means:

Imagine with me this circle is full of people. Now, I am going to write down some of the teachnigs of God that should govern them (God's will/plan for them):

1- You should follow God's teachings in order to live in peace...
2- If you deviate from God's teaching, you should pay for it..
3- You would suffer either sooner or later for any injustice you cause to others.
4- You should care about your community. You should spread the goodness, and stand in the face of evil. If you dont, you will be affected by the evil it spreads in your community.
5-If you turn away from God, He will bring you back to Him. First, by goodness, but if you still insist on ignoring Him, He will bring you back to Him by problems and disasters.
6- Evil people are sticks in God's hands. He punishes others by them, then he punish them.
7- God give people freedom to choose between right and wrong,to worship me or not, and He will judge them for that. I let others do evil, but their harm reach go nowhere where I dont. Everything is under my control. And God knows more.
8- Satan is an enemy that you should not surrender to. If you do, you will lose. But, God's door will always be open to you if you repent.
9- If you are with God, He will always be with you. If you seek His protection and help, He will never let you down. Be with Him, and you will be saved.


Well, Soleil10, Now, look deeply at thses teachings. They are God's. Then, is it within God's plan that people will do harm? Is it within God's plan that people may deviate from Him? Is it within His plan that others may get harmed by others? Is it within His plan that some may turn awat from Him? Yes, it is within His plan and Will.

Now, I hope you may understand in clear way what God's will means. It simply means anything happening in this world, it is He who wills it because it is already within His Plan.

I think, Soleil10, you confuse between what God wants for us, and with God's plan. It is for sure that God wants for us all the goodness, but it is also for sure that God has within His plan that people, and He is Their Creator and the best knower of them, may deviate from his plan and that suffering, corruption and so on will prevail. It is all within His plan.

I hope I make point clear...

God is patient and will win at the end but we are and have hurt his plans for so long. God is a suffering God.

I believe that God is patient, and His patiency is that of mercy and love. He gives the unjust the opportunity to repent and be back to Him. Yet, I totally disagree that God is suffering. Why? simply because He can destroy all of us and bring new people in a glimpse of eye.

God is not in a battle, Soleil10. There is no one equal to God, no one. Everything is under His control and dominion. Nothing goes out from His plan. It is we who are in battle, and that's was the lesson to be deduced from Adam and Eve..

 

[Marsh]

I totally agree with, Darren. Actually, it takes time for one to digest this idea, and still seems hard for one to accept. Why? Simply because we dont know the full truth.


@ soleil10

I am going to give you a simple example Soleil. One day, a shop owner was standing at the door of his shop. There was a quarrel between 2 persons. One wanted to fire the other one, but he mistakened him, and the bullet eneterd the shop owner's heart and killed him.

People felt very sorry for the person, and they said" where is God's justice? Why this man was killed while he was wroking for his family and children?!

This is one chapter of the story. And here people's knowledge stop and that's why they felt sorry for him. That's all they know.And normally our reaction is up to our knowledge.

Now, let's me tell the other chapter of the story. That shop owner had a brother. That brother had died and left 3 children behind. The shop owner took all the proprieties of his brother, even his house and expelled his brother's children out of their house. The children and their mother resorted to the court. Yet, the shop owner bribed the court and won the case. A wise man advised the children and their mother to resort to God and complain to him about that unjust person. And you know the rest of the story.

A true believer believes that God is All Just, All Wise, All Strong, All Loving, and His will is always fulfilled and done. And because of this faith, a true believer always believe that there is a wisdom behind anything takes place in this earth.

There is no absolute evil because the presence of absolute evil contradicts with the presence of God.

Anything happens, it is God who wills it. And since God wills it , there is a wisdom behind it.

Let me repeat: It is because we know just a chapter of the whole story that we are unable to see the full picture and witness God's mercy and justice.

Ummmmmm.... God is many things to me, D, but hitman is not one of them. I see what you're getting at, though. Here's an alternate ending to your story:

The shop owner was not a bad guy; in fact, he was a very good man and loved his family and worked hard to take care of them. Although his body died, his soul did not, and he was taken up to heaven to be with God and with Jesus Christ until the day of the Lord and the establishment of God's kingdom on Earth. He didn't have stress anymore, nor did he cry-- even though he knew that his wife and children would mourn over him, and that they would have a tough row to hoe without him, because some day they would join him in God's presence.

People toss out the names of villains and horrors and tragedies all the time and then ask, "Where was God when these things happened?" They forget that the life to come is much better than the life that is now, and the day of our death is better than the day of our birth.

 

[soleil10]

ooooooh I see... So you're just making that bit up and passing it off as logic? Ok got it.... Oh... no wait, the holy spirit is the 2nd eve? Man, you have a very interesting, and different view of things from most I encounter....... Or I could just be misunderstanding this lol.

For spiritual or physical birth to happen, there has to be parents. No other way. Many people teach that you are reborn through Jesus and the Holy spirit. This is not new. Jesus is a man so..... . Many people teach that the Holy spirit is comforting and a feminine spirit.
When Adam and Eve fell, it is said that they died. (it was a spiritual death)
We are their descendants. How can we be reborn spiritually. We need parents. God is our Heavenly parent. A&E were our earthly parents.

Jesus came as the second Adam. There has to be a second Eve. All what I am saying is biblical. If there is a King, there is a Queen.

Women were treated as subservient to men in the past because Eve fell first. When the Messiah comes women will be liberated too. We cant just erase half of humanity.

When, things do not make sense, we should question them. Science uncovers eternal truth and religion internal truth. They have to be one.

It is the same for our mind and body. We are divided and struggle because of the fall. The famous separation of church and state reflects the separation of our mind and body. There are two but the body should follow the mind not the other way around.

I might be reading into it wrong.... But, do you think "the people" should have protected jesus' "precious" physical body? Why was his flesh precious? It's.... Just, flesh.....

Our body should be the Temple for our spirit.(that is in the bible) Our sexual organs should be absolutely holy. Our body is precious. Can you imagine how precious Jesus' body was. He was walking with God. God could be with him on earth.

When this lady (sorry I forgot her name) poured all this perfume on Jesus feet, his disciples were upset. They wanted to use it for the poor. (I heard that the value of such perfume would be equivalent to one year salary today). Jesus told them that they would always be poor but only one time for the Messiah. They happened to be living as the same time as Jesus.

Man is the bridge between the spiritual and the physical. God does not have a physical body. We have a body and a spirit. God wants to live in us. God wants to be in our heart.

God can be as small or as big as He wants. If God was visible, can you imagine, every body would try to capture Him. He is smart to be invisible.

Satan? Oh that's not satan heh.......

It certainly looks like him. sorry. I was just curious

 

[17th Angel]

Jesus came as the second Adam. There has to be a second Eve. All what I am saying is biblical. If there is a King, there is a Queen.

Thanks for the reply, very interesting. Do you also believe that the sacrafice of the christ was to repay the price of adam? if so, shouldn't the second eve also have been sacraficed to pay the price? as one perfect life for two perfect lifes isn't a fair balance payment? Or then again if you do not believe in the "perfect payment plan" then never mind.. lol

Our body should be the Temple for our spirit.(that is in the bible) Our sexual organs should be absolutely holy. Our body is precious. Can you imagine how precious Jesus' body was. He was walking with God. God could be with him on earth.

But the temple must die?

It certainly looks like him. sorry. I was just curious

You've met him?

No need for the sorry The avatar, it is just a man...... (it's clipped from this; http://www.interfaith.org/forum/189466-post637.html and it is simply just the perception of the mans, mind's eye of self.)

 

[soleil10]

Thanks for the reply, very interesting. Do you also believe that the sacrifice of the christ was to repay the price of adam? if so, shouldn't the second eve also have been sacrificed to pay the price? as one perfect life for two perfect lifes isn't a fair balance payment? Or then again if you do not believe in the "perfect payment plan" then never mind.. lol

First, let me say that Jesus initial course was to bring the kingdom of heaven on earth during his lifetime. He said, the kingdom is at hand, repent. 2 years later, he changed course. His disciples were confused asking why ? They were shocked

Why would God prepare for his coming for 4000 biblical years. He could have send Jesus much earlier and let him get killed then.

Jesus was here to restore where Adam fell. Jesus was absolutely obedient to God, had absolute faith in God and expressed absolute love to God and mankind.

If he could have met the prepared Eve, a new lineage could have started. It is still possible that both could have been killed if people around them did not have absolute faith. Jesus' s parents did not understand his mission. Jesus said "who are my real brothers and family " those who believe in me. His family thought Jesus was crasy. They came to get him out of what he was doing.

But the temple must die?

Yes. In fallen man the body dominates the mind. It has to be reversed. Our flesh has to be under control. Jesus was a holy temple. He controled his body. At the end he offered it as a sacrifice.

You've met him?

We all do. he is the sweetest on the block. He is not mean and ugly. Holywood does not get it. Satan knows a lot how to deceive us.

No need for the sorry The avatar, it is just a man...... (it's clipped from this; http://www.interfaith.org/forum/189466-post637.html and it is simply just the perception of the mans, mind's eye of self.)

 

[17th Angel]

But, but, but, if jesus came here with intentions to mate with an eve...... Those two being perfect, (sinless, meaning they could not die.......) As would their offspring be.... So humanity as we know all our familys and ancestors and descendants would die out and the children of jesus and eve MKII would be the peoples of god? They would have favour not us?

But, then it sways and he decides to sacrafice himself for the good of the "others"? Also if god's plan A was what I mentioned before.... Wouldn't plan B not be needed? As God would get done what he wanted to be done? Like BAM! all the people that had him captive just like fall down dead, simply cause they were disobeying gods plan A?

So only in the fallen man will the flesh rot and die?

He is a sweety isn't he? Deviously charming, a delight to be around.... Mean oh no not at all... He is fair. Who deceives who though... really.....

He's not ugly? lol you have a crush on him it sounds! So you wouldn't consider my image in my avatar to be ugly, if you thought it was him?

 

[soleil10]

Alex, I have to go somewhere. I will respond later

But, but, but, if jesus came here with intentions to mate with an eve...... Those two being perfect, (sinless, meaning they could not die.......) As would their offspring be.... So humanity as we know all our familys and ancestors and descendants would die out and the children of jesus and eve MKII would be the peoples of god? They would have favour not us?

But, then it sways and he decides to sacrafice himself for the good of the "others"? Also if god's plan A was what I mentioned before.... Wouldn't plan B not be needed? As God would get done what he wanted to be done? Like BAM! all the people that had him captive just like fall down dead, simply cause they were disobeying gods plan A?

So only in the fallen man will the flesh rot and die?

He is a sweety isn't he? Deviously charming, a delight to be around.... Mean oh no not at all... He is fair. Who deceives who though... really.....

He's not ugly? lol you have a crush on him it sounds! So you wouldn't consider my image in my avatar to be ugly, if you thought it was him?

 

[17th Angel]

One love sol, one love

 

[soleil10]

But, but, but, if jesus came here with intentions to mate with an eve...... Those two being perfect, (sinless, meaning they could not die.......).

In Genesis after God created everything, He created man and woman.
What did He do then. He gave them 3 blessings to fulfill
1) Be fruitful (mature, one in heart with God)
2) Multiply
3) Have dominion over the earth.
That is the formula to build the Kingdom of Heaven and earth
The whole bible is about that. The whole purpose of history after the human fall is to reverse what happened at the fall so the Messiah can be born sinless and fulfill these 3 blessing. Jesus fulfilled the first blessing but was killed physically. Sinless does not mean someone does not die physically.

During the human fall, A&E died spiritually. It was a spiritual death.

What is the kingdom of heaven on earth? It is a kingdom of families. We are not going to the spirtual heaven alone but as a family.

As would their offspring be.... So humanity as we know all our familys and ancestors and descendants would die out and the children of jesus and eve MKII would be the peoples of god? They would have favour not us?

No, over time all humanity would have connected to Jesus offspring. Satan invaded Adam's blood line. God cannot relate to such lineage.
The Messiah wants to save mankind physically and spiritually.
Those who would have connected to Jesus (God's) lineage on earth would (being reborn through Jesus) have become the new ancestors of their ancestors in front of God

But, then it sways and he decided to sacrifice himself for the good of the "others"?

As the situation became hopeless,God asked Jesus to offer his physical life as a sacrifice for all mankind. Jesus knew that God will loose his seed and a sinless family with many descendant. This is why he asked God not to drink this cup. It was not because he was afaid to die himself but because he knew a lot more was being lost than his body.
It is so sad, especially during that very special prayer, his disciples fell asleep. 3 times Jesus came to wake them up. Jesus was totally alone.

Also if god's plan A was what I mentioned before.... Wouldn't plan B not be needed?

Plan B would not be needed.

As God would get done what he wanted to be done? Like BAM! all the people that had him captive just like fall down dead, simply cause they were disobeying gods plan A?

Once plan B was decided, it became God's will. When Peter tried to stop the soldiers, Jesus said: "Get behind me Satan"

So only in the fallen man will the flesh rot and die?

Our physical body is like our womb before we go the the spirit world. When our physical body dies, it is our second birthday.
In our mother's womb we are being prepared with what we need for our life on earth. In the womb, we live in a water world.
On the earth we breathe air. In the spirit world we breathe love. If we do not learn to love while we are here, we are in trouble there.
Our physical body allows us to do good actions so our spirit can grow.
Our physical body will go back to the earth. It is temporary.
We have a spirit body and a spirit mind in the same way, we have a physical body and a mind.

We are afraid of death because we are fallen.

 

[soleil10]

Well, Soleil10, now, I am understanding you better. You want to say that God's will is done when His Words are really practised. Then,I think there is a misunderstanding about the meaning of "God's will"...
Now, let's focus on the story of Adam and Eve. Most people misunderstand this story, and its interpretation...
God knew in advance that Adam and Eve were going to disobey Him as He knows in advance all the peoples that were going to disobey Him since the creation of the first man. He is omniscient.

If God knew they would fail He would have not have given them a commandement to obey him. God knew they was a risk during they growth to maturity.
God did not want Jesus to be killed but he knew there was a risk. This is why there are two kind of prophecies in the Bible. One kind announcing a messiah of Glory and another kind anouncing a messiah of suffering.
Free will is free will. There cannot be true love without free will. Wihtout true love, there is no kingdom of heaven. Impossible

This is a frightening thing that every parent learn soon or later.

Well, Adam and Eve didnt fail. They were just passing a training period. This training period is a lesson to all of us. God explained to Adam and Eve everything: the paradise( a symbole of being away from Satan), the temptation (the tree which is a symbole of the tempatations that exist in this world), and the Satan (the enemy that we should be cautious of all the time). Hence, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God while they were still in the training period, their disobeyment wasnt a sin as any employee is not punished for a mistake he/she does while he/she is still undertaking a training period. God let Adam and Eve went this training period to teach us clear lesson: that if we surrender to the temptation and the Satan's whisper we will lose.

Adam and Eve were fired, they were kicked out of the garden. They were chased out not to return. They died spiritually.Their children were born out of the garden. Their older son killed his younger brother. The first family became the firt dysfunctional family.

Hence, as we see, Adam and Eve arent sinners. And God's plan was done, and it wasnt delayed.

They sinned big time because sin did not existed before. Their sin is transmited from generation to generation. God's plan was delayed big time. There was no need for a Messiah or even religion before the fall. They could communicate directly with God. Now God had to start the providence a salvation. That was not His original plan

God's purpose behind creating us is to show us mercy and love.

God's purpose is to experience divine love trough His children. It is not a one way street. Instead God as parent is experiencing misery, pain and suffering. His heart is in great agony. Look at the world.

That lesson of Adam and Eve was a clear message from God to all of us: I showed you the wrong, and the right. If you follow the right, you live in paradise (esp inside), and if you follow the wrong, you will suffer (esp inside). You are created to see whom among you is going to be connected to me, and follow my commandments from those who will turn themselves away from me.

If the eating of the fruit was a small mistake, we could speak like this but the eating of the fruit was a big one, transmited from generation to the next.
They are thing that our children can do that will destroy our lineage and cannot be just erased with a slap on the hand.

I think you wanted to say that God's commandents are rarely followed. But God's will, soleil10, is always done.

What I said is that God' will is unchanging and that God said that He will do it regarless of how long it takes.

to be followed

 

[17th Angel]

If we do not learn to love while we are here, we are in trouble there.

Ok I understand you belife now just one thing..... If we do not learn to love we still go there? So there will be conflicts of interest there? Some looking out for others, and those looking out for self? So... It's just like here but we're all spirits?

What is the kingdom of heaven on earth?

I don't know, it sounds like a contradiction to me? Heaven - Earth two seperate places/nations/realms/territories/whatever... They are different kingdoms...? Or is this more of an Empire? Cause we know what happens to Empires

No, over time all humanity would have connected to Jesus offspring. Satan invaded Adam's blood line.

Uhm, I don't gets it.... If Jesus came here and started his family, which we wouldn't of been in... How would we of connected to it? Like you cannot connect to my family... They are seperate from one another, sure you can connect by taking the name... But not by blood.

Satan didn't invade adams blood line.... Satan simply offered an alternative route... Adam took it.

Once plan B was decided, it became God's will.

Would I be wrong not to put any stock in plan B? And not take it seriously? Because it would seem the will of god changes... So who knows somewhere down the line he may change his mind....again..

We are afraid of death because we are fallen.

Elaborate?

 

[soleil10]

Ok I understand you belief now just one thing..... If we do not learn to love we still go there? So there will be conflicts of interest there? Some looking out for others, and those looking out for self? So... It's just like here but we're all spirits?

The spirit world is a different dimension like the physical world is a different environment from your mother's womb. In the spirit world I could say that love is the currency. There are different levels in the spirit world.
If you are a very selfish person and you end up where the very selfish people are, it is not a good place to be.
On earth we need to experience 4 kinds of love. (4 realms of the heart)
1- children's love from your parents 2-love between siblings 3- Conjugal love between spouses and 4- unconditional Parental love to your children. This is part of growing our heart.
To answer your question more clearly. When we pass on, we are who we are. Our life on earth is actually a training course to grow our heart.

I don't know, it sounds like a contradiction to me? Heaven - Earth two seperate places/nations/realms/territories/whatever... They are different kingdoms...? Or is this more of an Empire? Cause we know what happens to Empires

The kingdom of heaven is a kingdom of ideal families. Every one become the king or queen, prince or princess in their family.
There are 3 levels of kingship. Grand parents, Parents, children. 3 generations. You are talking of kingdoms from a fallen world point of you. Yes they cannot sustain themselves.

Uhm, I don't gets it.... If Jesus came here and started his family, which we wouldn't of been in... How would we of connected to it? Like you cannot connect to my family... They are seperate from one another, sure you can connect by taking the name... But not by blood.

Through marriages we can connect. Jesus' children would marry the children outside of their families. They have God's seed. Over time everyone becomes connected to Jesus/God's seed.

Satan didn't invade adams blood line.... Satan simply offered an alternative route... Adam took it.

Yes Lucifer invaded God blood's line. I will have to explain what happened at the fall. I can do it on a separate post.

Would I be wrong not to put any stock in plan B? And not take it seriously? Because it would seem the will of god changes... So who knows somewhere down the line he may change his mind....again..

God did not change his purpose ever. The whole Bible shows that God took plan B many times. The Messiah could have come even during Adam's time, Noah's time. We need to understand why Cain killing Abel delayed God' s providence. Why Ham failure delayed God's providence during Noah's time and on and on.

Elaborate?

We are afraid of death because our 5 spirit senses were seriously damaged during the human fall, so we are ignorant of the spirit world. Also we go to the spirit world before we have fully developped. We are disconnected from God in many ways. There is a lot of fear about death.

 

[Marsh]

For spiritual or physical birth to happen, there has to be parents. No other way. Many people teach that you are reborn through Jesus and the Holy spirit. This is not new. Jesus is a man so..... . Many people teach that the Holy spirit is comforting and a feminine spirit.
When Adam and Eve fell, it is said that they died. (it was a spiritual death)
We are their descendants. How can we be reborn spiritually. We need parents. God is our Heavenly parent. A&E were our earthly parents.

Who are these "many people" you keep talking about, Soleil? Or is that your way of saying this is what you believe and then backing it up without evidence?

By the way, who were Adam's parents, out of curiosity?

 

[soleil10]

Who are these "many people" you keep talking about, Soleil? Or is that your way of saying this is what you believe and then backing it up without evidence?

The concept of being born again is common throughout in Christianity

By the way, who were Adam's parents, out of curiosity?

I would say ultimately God.

 

[dailogue is the best]

If God knew they would fail He would have not have given them a commandement to obey him. God knew they was a risk during they growth to maturity.

As a teacher asks his students not to cheat while he knew that some are going to cheat.

As a doctor advises his patients not to eat junk, unhealthy food while he knew that some are going to diobey him.

As a ruler asks his nation to follow the rules while he knew that there are some who are going to break them down.

The teacher, the doctor, and the ruler do their duty in the best way and hence they are not to be blamed if others turn away. They are not to be blamed when the others have to pay for what their mistake..

God did not want Jesus to be killed but he knew there was a risk. This is why there are two kind of prophecies in the Bible. One kind announcing a messiah of Glory and another kind anouncing a messiah of suffering.

From where do you think this contradiction come from?!!!!!!!!! You cant attribute this to God for God is all Perfect.

Free will is free will. There cannot be true love without free will. Wihtout true love, there is no kingdom of heaven. Impossible

Yes, soleil10. Who says the opposite!!! Love has no meaning if it is obligatory. Yet, you have to know that it is within God's plan/will that we are given free will to choose right or wrong...It is God who plans for us to have free will in our actions. That's why, there commandments, and punishment and reward..Yet, God is always there and always interfers.

They sinned big time because sin did not existed before. Their sin is transmited from generation to generation. God's plan was delayed big time. There was no need for a Messiah or even religion before the fall. They could communicate directly with God. Now God had to start the providence a salvation. That was not His original plan

God's will is always done, and His will can never be undone. God created man weak from the very beginning even before Adam ate the fruit. There was a lesson to be deduced from the experience of Adam and Eve in the garden. A lesson to all humanity as I explained before. They arent sinners. They were just passing a training stage.

God's plan from the very begining is to create a weak human being that should seek refuge in God and create a love relation with Him. God created the man weak to test how his love and committment to God would be deep. God's plan from the very beginning to send down prophets and Holy Books. God's plan from the very beginning is to test man who would struggle with his weakness, and overcome his egos and lust to submit lovingly to God and do good to His creatures. That's God's plan from the very beginning, and it is still up: the test is still taking place, and look at the world..

Instead God as parent is experiencing misery, pain and suffering. His heart is in great agony. Look at the world.

Of course, God wishes us the best. Yet, God can never ever suffer. Everything is under His control. Just try remember the miracles He supported the prophets Moses and Jesus pbuth with. How can He suffer while He has All the Power. Of course, He never can. What is happening now in the world it is within God's plan. It is the test to His creatures: who come willingly to Him, and who dont

What I said is that God' will is unchanging and that God said that He will do it regarless of how long it takes.

Nothing stands in God's way, nothing. Thus, it is up to Him to choose how long it takes. We seek His mercy and forgivness..

 

[17th Angel]

Ignorant to the spirit world.... Well, you seem to know alot about it for a fallen...

What are the five spirit senses?

What has a babylonian king got to do with "invading" a bloodline?

He may of taken Plan B many times... But someone who doesn't change his mind doesn't need a plan B... There is no plan b...

The loves you speak of are not fair.... What of those that have no siblings? or parents.... Or those that have parents, are not loving to their children/child... You have then already missed out on 50% of "the loves" and you may not be able to have children... Or you may not find a partner... Or die before you have... Not a very fair training ground....

 

[soleil10]

As a teacher asks his students not to cheat while he knew that some are going to cheat.
As a doctor advises his patients not to eat junk, unhealthy food while he knew that some are going to diobey him.
As a ruler asks his nation to follow the rules while he knew that there are some who are going to break them down.
The teacher, the doctor, and the ruler do their duty in the best way and hence they are not to be blamed if others turn away. They are not to be blamed when the others have to pay for what their mistake..

Dialogue, you are comparing apple and oranges. When A&E lived sin had not existed on the earth yet. Also we need to consider how serius that sin was. It was so tempting that they were willing to risk their life for it. What sin can be passed on from generation to generation ? It was not eating an apple

All your examples have to do with already fallen human beings which we know have two masters and are not so reliable.

From where do you think this contradiction come from?!!!!!!!!! You cant attribute this to God for God is all Perfect.

Human fall

Yes, soleil10. Who says the opposite!!! Love has no meaning if it is obligatory. Yet, you have to know that it is within God's plan/will that we are given free will to choose right or wrong...It is God who plans for us to have free will in our actions. That's why, there commandments, and punishment and reward..Yet, God is always there and always interfers.

God does not interfer with our portion of responsibility. God did not intervine during the fall. God did not intervine at the crucifixion. He will not contradict his own principles

God's will is always done, and His will can never be undone. God created man weak from the very beginning even before Adam ate the fruit. There was a lesson to be deduced from the experience of Adam and Eve in the garden. A lesson to all humanity as I explained before. They arent sinners. They were just passing a training stage.
God's plan from the very begining is to create a weak human being that should seek refuge in God and create a love relation with Him. God created the man weak to test how his love and committment to God would be deep. God's plan from the very beginning to send down prophets and Holy Books. God's plan from the very beginning is to test man who would struggle with his weakness, and overcome his egos and lust to submit lovingly to God and do good to His creatures. That's God's plan from the very beginning, and it is still up: the test is still taking place, and look at the world..

This is such a twisted explanation. I am sorry. No parent want his children to be weak so they fail and seek refuge and develop a relationship. Parents want their children to be even better than them. Of course we all go through a growing period when our body and our spirit go from childhood to maturity.
If Adam and Eve had not fell, there would have be no need for a Messiah or even religion.
Gove gave A&E 3 blessings to fulfill.

Of course, God wishes us the best. Yet, God can never ever suffer. Everything is under His control. Just try remember the miracles He supported the prophets Moses and Jesus pbuth with. How can He suffer while He has All the Power. Of course, He never can. What is happening now in the world it is within God's plan. It is the test to His creatures: who come willingly to Him, and who dont

What you are saying is so cruel. It is even hard to believe you could even say it. God has all the power, all the knowledge and all the money he wants but He created for love. God needs love to be returned to him. His heart is broken seeing his children suffer. Go tell someone in a concentration camp or a dying child in Africa that their suffering is God's plan.
That is a sick and monstruous thing to say. It seems that Azure, Winner and you are sharing the same kind of belief. Am I correct ?

 

[soleil10]

Ignorant to the spirit world.... Well, you seem to know alot about it for a fallen... What are the five spirit senses?

There is a lot more to know about the SW that I do not know.
The 5 spiritual senses are the equivalent of the 5 physical senses.
Some people do have access in some limited fashion to one of their spiritual sense. Some mediums can communicate spiritually. Some are very poerful, some are not great at all.

What has a babylonian king got to do with "invading" a bloodline?

I do not understand your question. Can you explain ?

He may of taken Plan B many times... But someone who doesn't change his mind doesn't need a plan B... There is no plan b...

He does not change his purpose but his plan will be affected by the response and the cooperation he gets.

The loves you speak of are not fair.... What of those that have no siblings? or parents.... Or those that have parents, are not loving to their children/child... You have then already missed out on 50% of "the loves" and you may not be able to have children... Or you may not find a partner... Or die before you have... Not a very fair training ground....

Most of these problems are created by the result of the fall and the fallen environment.
We all have parents. They may not have acted maturely and hurt their children.
Remember the 3 blessings God gave to A&E. They multiplied outside of the garden, outside of God's will before reaching maturity.Their marriage was not blessed by God. They became the first dysfunctional family.

If you can't have children, you can adopt. Out of 6 billion people you can find a partner especially if you know how important it is. If you die young there is a solution but I do not want to share it here.

In a God centered ideal world, we live for the sake of others. It is a completely different environment.

Some lineages are cursed because of the crimes committed by their ancestors. If someone's grand father tortured someone, that person may have resentment against his descendants. Many issues have accumulated during the last 6000 biblical years.

All your good deeds make a good foundation for your own descendants.

The grandson is in the grandfather and the granfather is in the grandson physically. You can see it with your own eyes. It is the same spiritually.

 

[17th Angel]

Yes, you said Lucifer invaded the bloodlines, but the biblical reference Luci is a Babylonian king.

 

[soleil10]

Yes, you said Lucifer invaded the bloodlines, but the biblical reference Luci is a Babylonian king.

If we are talking about the same verses, it is written as an oracle on him comparing this king to what happened with Lucifer. Do yo have the exact verses ?