Let's clear the air...

[Tao_Equus]

I agree with your observations about Germany post WWI.

I see two events in the last 4 years as critical and give insight into some of the issues which I think will be playing a much greater role in Europe in the years to come. They are the riots in France in 2005 and Greece in 2008.

I would be interested in learning the perspectives of the European posters in this forum about these riots ? Will there be more of these riots in years to come ? What were the main reasons for them ?

It seems to me that there are still deep divisions in Europe with respect to class, race, economic status and education. Do Europeans know how to deal with this disparateness ?

There have never not been riots in Greece and France, ( I suffered my worst physical injuries ever at the hands of Greek riot police in 1986 protesting the US using Europe as the platform for bombing Libya). It was popular protest in Europe that freed many states from their Soviet domination in the years directly following that. Protest is alive and well in Europe despite the increasingly draconian laws being enacted to limit it.

Europe has had to deal with taking former Soviet Block nations that were hallmarked by backward, stagnated economies and setting them on a road to economic parity within the Eurozone. A mammoth undertaking I'm sure you would agree. Given the diversity of nation, culture and language that this has taken place peaceably and with really incredible speed is a testament of the determination of all Europeans to work together. Personally I hope the political evolution of Europe continues on the same track to the point that nations are really the equivalent of your states. A single but highly diverse superstate.

As for divisions in class, race etc.... I think that Europe does have many issues but as I hinted progress has been rapid and peaceable, the one exception being the Balkan War. Europe has porous borders with Africa and Asia and has large immigrant populations that are very well intigrated and have made themselves at home here. And within Europe itself there have been large migrations too. New member states find their people moving to the likes of the UK, and peripheral states find their populations migrating to take up the slack left by the first migration. Europe is very secular. In any major city you find large communities from many countries. And if anything I would say there is less disparity and far less endemic racism in Europe than there is in the US. Though we still see politicians using race as a political rallying call for a certain type of voter they are a tiny minority.

 

[Avi]

EEC standardisation knee jerk allergic reaction and job scarcities [migrants willing to work minimal wages and extortianate hours and willing to pay high rents cos they all squash in together].

Hi Nativeastral, most Americans believe that this is one of Europe's greatest weaknesses (not as though I speak for "most Americans" ) . Europeans have not been good at dealing with immigrants. There are many examples of this in history.

I have some ideas of why this is the case, but I would be interested in hearing your views on this issue.

Do you think Europe will do better dealing with immigrants in the future (how is this for a loaded question ) ?

Actually, I have been sort of teasing you and Tao a little in this tread. You might realize that most Americans really love European culture, tradition and intellectual values (not to mention the French wine, cheese and bread and German beer and bratwurst) . So consider this some friendly ribbing . (By the way, do Scots like a "fish supper", "chippie sauce" and a McEwan ? Oh no, I better not use stereotypes , Wil might criticize that ).

 

[nativeastral]

Hi Nativeastral, most Americans believe that this is one of Europe's greatest weaknesses (not as though I speak for "most Americans" ) . Europeans have not been good at dealing with immigrants. There are many examples of this in history.

I have some ideas of why this is the case, but I would be interested in hearing your views on this issue.

Do you think Europe will do better dealing with immigrants in the future (how is this for a loaded question ) ?

Actually, I have been sort of teasing you and Tao a little in this tread. You might realize that most Americans really love European culture, tradition and intellectual values (not to mention the French wine, cheese and bread and German beer and bratwurst) . So consider this some friendly ribbing . (By the way, do Scots like a "fish supper", "chippie sauce" and a McEwan ? Oh no, I better not use stereotypes , Wil might criticize that ).

LOL yes l was brought up with a fish supper [usually on the way back from an outing as my mother couldn't be bothered to cook once home at teatime], dunno about chippie sauce [always HP tomato ketchup for me]. McEwans? o aye export is much more preferable than the poisonous Tenants lager [lout], but even that has to be imbibed if theres nothing else to drink at 5 am at a party. Me l am a wino and any cheap wine will do though l know my wines! l make my own from fruit,herbs,vegetables and flowers. The main scottish dishes are haggis [l only eat veggie ones], porridge [yumyum good for the nerves Vit B] and mince [beef] tatties [potatoes] with either mealie pudding [oatmeal] or doughboys [balls made with flour/suet and l add parsley,cooked in the mince]. Oh and herrings coated with oatmeal and fried and smoked haddock is popular too.

Concerning migration, well as you will know your jewish history the land mass in Europe has been migratory territory for ages, with significant ethnic populations everywhere. It comes in waves depending on political developments etc; apparently quite a few Poles are returning home because the financial situation is better at home now. At my place of work [care home] there are significant phillipinos and Indians working many hours that the locals will not do [minimum wage].

With this recession nations will be reconsidering their immigration situation but as l said the homogenous nature of the EEC is causing consternation among workers within nations who feel their jobs are threatened by migrants who have the right to work wherever within the EEC. l am not informed enough on this subject to comment further.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Avi,

Disappointed that you ask questions then ignore the answers. Again I assert that the differences in Europe, the problems we encounter due to geography and history, that lead to clashes over culture and immigration are far more pronounced than in the US where you only have one short border to worry about. Yet in the US the phobia of immigration and the overt racism within society is far more pronounced. In my neighbourhood there are sizeable communities of Seiks, Bangladeshi's, Pakistanis, Tamils, Indians, Polish, Russian, Latvian, Ecuadorian and West Africans, that I know of. There is zero segregation and no racial tension what so ever. So I do not get why you seem to hint at Europe having a problem. Perhaps you need to be more specific.

 

[Avi]

Avi,

Again I assert that the differences in Europe, the problems we encounter due to geography and history, that lead to clashes over culture and immigration are far more pronounced than in the US where you only have one short border to worry about.

Correct !! We agree on this. And this is the issue that I am trying to understand better. It may be related to the boarder as you say. But I think it is deeper than that, part of the European psyche.

Yet in the US the phobia of immigration and the overt racism within society is far more pronounced.

You are using the "my continent is better than your continent" argument here. Didn't we just elect an African American President in the US. How many African-European leaders are there in Europe ?

In my neighbourhood there are sizeable communities of Seiks, Bangladeshi's, Pakistanis, Tamils, Indians, Polish, Russian, Latvian, Ecuadorian and West Africans, that I know of. There is zero segregation and no racial tension what so ever. So I do not get why you seem to hint at Europe having a problem. Perhaps you need to be more specific

I am happy to hear that European cities are happlily intergrated communities. If this is the case, it would be the first time in the history of Europe. I look forward to learning more about why this wonderful development has happened in such a relatively short time, since WWII and what makes you think it is a permanent change.

Disappointed that you ask questions then ignore the answers.

Tao, mellow out man. It sounds like you need a Caledonian's Edinburgh Strong Ale (is it malty enough for you ?)

 

[Quahom1]

What a crock...

...ever occur to you folk to invite Americans into the discussion? You might be surprised at the insight you find...

 

[wil]

In my neighbourhood there are sizeable communities of Seiks, Bangladeshi's, Pakistanis, Tamils, Indians, Polish, Russian, Latvian, Ecuadorian and West Africans, that I know of. There is zero segregation and no racial tension what so ever. So I do not get why you seem to hint at Europe having a problem. Perhaps you need to be more specific.

Namaste Tao,

It appears you may not know what migration, immigration and 'sizeable community' is. Please don't take this wrong. From the statistics I'm reading if what you are saying is correct you must live smack dab in the very segregated ethnic neighborhood Scotland has.


Ethnic Groups

• White: 4,960,334 - 98.19%
• Scottish: 4,459,071 - 88.09%
• Other White British: 373,685 - 7.38%
• Any other White background: 87,650 - 1.73%
• White Irish: 49,428 - 0.98%
• Mixed: 12,764 - 0.25%
• South Asian: 55,007 - 1.09%
• Black: 8,025 - 0.16%
• Chinese: 16,310 - 0.32%

What does that give you almost a whopping two percent non UK immigrant population?

In the US where you deem us so bloody racist we gave amnesty to 3 million illegal aliens and since then three million a year cross our border to work, one million of which stay permanently.

and for comparison...

Total population: 299 million

White alone: 74% or 221.3 million

• Not including the 23.2 million White Hispanic and Latino Americans: 66% or 198.1 million

Hispanic or Latino ethnicity, of any race: 14.8% or about 44.3 million
Black or African American alone: 13.4% or 40.9 million
Some other race alone: 6.5% or 19 million
Asian alone: 4.4% or 13.1 million
Two or more races: 2.0% or 6.1 million
American Indian or Alaska Native alone: 0.68% or 2.0 million
Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander alone: 0.14% or 0.43 million

Please note now that non hispanic white population of the US, that 66% is probably 50% of which less than 4 generations from its European, Russian, Arab, Persian immigrant...

With the size of South Carolina and the Population of Maryland and a history of thousands of years vs. a few hundred it is hard to compare anything that goes on in Scotland with the US. Your entire ethnic population is the size of one small city here. (small under 100,000 people, it is a matter of scale)

In my observance racism issues start up when a couple things happen. One is when the 'other' group is of sufficient size that when employment or money gets tight the majority starts whining they are taking resources. The other is when the 'other' group gets of sufficient size to start demanding resources, ie they are comfortable enough and ingrained enough to start running for office, get better jobs, and control their own affairs. Niether of which happens when the ethnic group is outnumbered 100 to 1... 'they stay in their place'

What a crock...

...ever occur to you folk to invite Americans into the discussion? You might be surprised at the insight you find...

Who the heck is this Q and when has he ever waited for an invite?

 

[Avi]

In my observance racism issues start up when a couple things happen. One is when the 'other' group is of sufficient size that when employment or money gets tight the majority starts whining they are taking resources. The other is when the 'other' group gets of sufficient size to start demanding resources, ie they are comfortable enough and ingrained enough to start running for office, get better jobs, and control their own affairs. Niether of which happens when the ethnic group is outnumbered 100 to 1... 'they stay in their place'
Who the heck is this Q and when has he ever waited for an invite?

Very interesting observations. On a related issue, in the US the way we make sure things are done fairly is by enacting laws to ensure that. There have been many laws enacted over recent years against racial hatred, and under Obama this will continue. In Europe there has been an unfortunate history of committing genocide against the group that starts succeeding.

But I look forward to hearing the argument of why this is no longer the case in Europe

 

[Tao_Equus]

Correct !! We agree on this. And this is the issue that I am trying to understand better. It may be related to the boarder as you say. But I think it is deeper than that, part of the European psyche.

But you have not defined a "European Psyche".

You are using the "my continent is better than your continent" argument here. Didn't we just elect an African American President in the US. How many African-European leaders are there in Europe ?

I was not. I was fishing for context. Congratulations to the US for excelling in tokenism

I am happy to hear that European cities are happlily intergrated communities. If this is the case, it would be the first time in the history of Europe. I look forward to learning more about why this wonderful development has happened in such a relatively short time, since WWII and what makes you think it is a permanent change.

Europe is the birthplace of and remains the cradle of modern secularism. Would you dispute that? Sure things are not perfect here and religious sh1t stirrers and their political collusionists make a mess of it again and again. But racism in Europe is pretty mild.

Tao, mellow out man. It sounds like you need a Caledonian's Edinburgh Strong Ale (is it malty enough for you ?)

You seem to know a little about Scotland... I used to drink a cally or three in my youth but have switched to coffee when I want a warm sweet drink. Prefer lagers now.....though not as much as a quality distillation or a good vintage from the vinters barrel. I plan to make lots of wine myself this year

 

[Tao_Equus]

What a crock...

...ever occur to you folk to invite Americans into the discussion? You might be surprised at the insight you find...

I think you might find I have plenty insight Q, and you know you have an open invitation from me!! So stop grunting and say something

 

[Tao_Equus]

Namaste Tao,

It appears you may not know what migration, immigration and 'sizeable community' is. Please don't take this wrong. From the statistics I'm reading if what you are saying is correct you must live smack dab in the very segregated ethnic neighborhood Scotland has.


Ethnic Groups

• White: 4,960,334 - 98.19%
• Scottish: 4,459,071 - 88.09%
• Other White British: 373,685 - 7.38%
• Any other White background: 87,650 - 1.73%
• White Irish: 49,428 - 0.98%
• Mixed: 12,764 - 0.25%
• South Asian: 55,007 - 1.09%
• Black: 8,025 - 0.16%
• Chinese: 16,310 - 0.32%

What does that give you almost a whopping two percent non UK immigrant population?

In the US where you deem us so bloody racist we gave amnesty to 3 million illegal aliens and since then three million a year cross our border to work, one million of which stay permanently.

and for comparison...

Total population: 299 million

White alone: 74% or 221.3 million

• Not including the 23.2 million White Hispanic and Latino Americans: 66% or 198.1 million

Hispanic or Latino ethnicity, of any race: 14.8% or about 44.3 million
Black or African American alone: 13.4% or 40.9 million
Some other race alone: 6.5% or 19 million
Asian alone: 4.4% or 13.1 million
Two or more races: 2.0% or 6.1 million
American Indian or Alaska Native alone: 0.68% or 2.0 million
Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander alone: 0.14% or 0.43 million

Please note now that non hispanic white population of the US, that 66% is probably 50% of which less than 4 generations from its European, Russian, Arab, Persian immigrant...

With the size of South Carolina and the Population of Maryland and a history of thousands of years vs. a few hundred it is hard to compare anything that goes on in Scotland with the US. Your entire ethnic population is the size of one small city here. (small under 100,000 people, it is a matter of scale)

They may be official statistics but I live in Edinburgh and I do not care what the official statistics are as my daily reality shows me a very different picture. I use public transport and car hire only when its the only option. Basing it on that I can assure you that the actual population is no more than 60% Scottish/UK white, about 15% are Asian or African and 25% mixed / white. Within 100 yards of my home you can find people of every nationality living and working without any real conflict. The bars, restraunts and clubs I know and frequent see everybody mingling, nobody excluded, all welcome. I never see racist grafitti or any other outward sign of intollerance and its reportage in the press amount to a few isolated incidents. Counting off the top of my head I think I have had 14 nationalities represented as guests in my home in the past year. I am not untypical, most of my oldest friends are the same.

In my observance racism issues start up when a couple things happen. One is when the 'other' group is of sufficient size that when employment or money gets tight the majority starts whining they are taking resources. The other is when the 'other' group gets of sufficient size to start demanding resources, ie they are comfortable enough and ingrained enough to start running for office, get better jobs, and control their own affairs. Niether of which happens when the ethnic group is outnumbered 100 to 1... 'they stay in their place'

Yup, these are the flash points.

 

[wil]

They may be official statistics but I live in Edinburgh and I do not care what the official statistics are as my daily reality shows me a very different picture. I use public transport and car hire only when its the only option. Basing it on that I can assure you that the actual population is no more than 60% Scottish/UK white, about 15% are Asian or African and 25% mixed / white. Within 100 yards of my home you can find people of every nationality living and working without any real conflict. The bars, restraunts and clubs I know and frequent see everybody mingling, nobody excluded, all welcome. I never see racist grafitti or any other outward sign of intollerance and its reportage in the press amount to a few isolated incidents. Counting off the top of my head I think I have had 14 nationalities represented as guests in my home in the past year. I am not untypical, most of my oldest friends are the same.

Yup, these are the flash points.

Yes using public transport in the heart of a major city is exactly where you find a high density of ethnic groups. Gotta admit you are on an island compared the rest of Scotland.

 

[Avi]

Quote: Avi
Didn't we just elect an African American President in the US. How many African-European leaders are there in Europe ?

Congratulations to the US for excelling in tokenism

Tao, you cannot be further off the truth than on this one

Even Obama's worst critics did not accuse him of being a token, even during the election.

He is a well educated, highly intelligent, highly productive, highly accomplished African-American.

Most Americans are very proud that he is our President. The only ones making comments like tokenism are now Rush Limbaugh, "ditto heads", do you fall into that camp ?

Not to say that he will be able to solve all the problems of our economy in 100 - 150 days. It took 8-12 years to put our economy in the pathetic state it is today. We will be lucky if Obama can get us out of it in his first term.

And many of us see sparks of John F. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, and Martin Luther King in him. (Actually, his wife is doing fantastically as well !!)

Are some Europeans perhaps a little jealous that we have chosen a leader with such great potential ? Tao, are you jealous ?

 

[Tao_Equus]

Tao, you cannot be further off the truth than on this one

Even Obama's worst critics did not accuse him of being a token, even during the election.

He is a well educated, highly intelligent, highly productive, highly accomplished African-American.

Most Americans are very proud that he is our President. The only ones making comments like tokenism are now Rush Limbaugh, "ditto heads", do you fall into that camp ?

Not to say that he will be able to solve all the problems of our economy in 100 - 150 days. It took 8-12 years to put our economy in the pathetic state it is today. We will be lucky if Obama can get us out of it in his first term.

And many of us see sparks of John F. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, and Martin Luther King in him. (Actually, his wife is doing fantastically as well !!)

Are some Europeans perhaps a little jealous that we have chosen a leader with such great potential ? Tao, are you jealous ?

The first 100 days were important. What has he done? Appointed the usual suspects and thrown billions more at the IMF and bankers, the thieves that made this problem in the first place. He has committed to throwing more destruction at Afghanistan and gone down on the Saudi King. Woopppeee doo. I am like so enawed! But his substanceless oratory makes me feel like he is CHANGE....yeh right.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Yes using public transport in the heart of a major city is exactly where you find a high density of ethnic groups. Gotta admit you are on an island compared the rest of Scotland.

Sorry but no I am not on an island. Edinburgh is the most cosmopolitan city here but Glasgow has the highest Asian population and you find immigrants in every forgotten corner of this country. What I suggest is that official statistics are utterly meaningless.

 

[Saltmeister]

I think you might find I have plenty insight Q, and you know you have an open invitation from me!! So stop grunting and say something

Grrrrrrrr....... Growl . . . Grunt . . . huff . . . puff . . . blowing a house down . . . throwing a tantrum . . . who has been sitting on my chair? Who has eaten my porridge? Who has been sleeping in my bed?

 

[Bandit]

He is a well educated, highly intelligent, highly productive, highly accomplished African-American.

Finishing law school doesn't make someone a good lawyer. I live 10 minutes from the Obamas and know quite a bit about them. He was in the Senate for three terms and he did nothing for the state. He was too lazy to even vote on the issues. I think what you mean is, Highly Lazy.

The first 100 days were important. What has he done? Appointed the usual suspects and thrown billions more at the IMF and bankers, the thieves that made this problem in the first place. He has committed to throwing more destruction at Afghanistan and gone down on the Saudi King. Woopppeee doo. I am like so enawed! But his substanceless oratory makes me feel like he is CHANGE....yeh right.

Precisely. He is nothing more than the puppet for the elitists while the general public goes on staying duped, thinking they 'party voted' for the lesser of two evils. That is how most people vote here, to keep the other party out, not realizing there is only one party that keeps doing the same damage just so they can have something to fix to keep the power over people in bad government.

 

[Saltmeister]

Precisely. He is nothing more than the puppet for the elitists while the general public goes on staying duped, thinking they 'party voted' for the lesser of two evils. That is how most people vote here, to keep the other party out, not realizing there is only one party that keeps doing the same damage just so they can have something to fix to keep the power over people in bad government.

So how would he compare to say . . . Hugo Chavez?

Is a popular President bad just because he's popular?

One thing I will say for sure is this. I don't like Hugo Chavez. Hugo Chavez isn't interested in solving problems. Hugo Chavez is only interested in being popular. Hugo Chavez is interested in looking for enemies. Obama at least appears to be interested in solving problems.

Hugo Chavez, to me is a demagogue whereas Obama is not. Hugo Chavez appeals to people's hatred for the multinationals. He appeals to people's fears of foreign powers.

Actually, I don't think Obama is really that bad if you consider his differences from Hugo Chavez.

The American people have finally found a politician they can like whereas before they have always been somewhat skeptical. American politics used to be boring. Obama has made things interesting again.

Alright maybe not. I'm just an outside observer trying to understand America.

 

[Avi]

Finishing law school doesn't make someone a good lawyer. I live 10 minutes from the Obamas and know quite a bit about them. He was in the Senate for three terms and he did nothing for the state. He was too lazy to even vote on the issues. I think what you mean is, Highly Lazy.

Ha, ha, since you are neighbor, by all means give some of the inside dirt

I do agree with you that a poor voting record is a bad thing. But remember that he spent most of the last two years getting ready for the Presidential election.

Precisely. He is nothing more than the puppet for the elitists while the general public goes on staying duped, thinking they 'party voted' for the lesser of two evils. That is how most people vote here, to keep the other party out, not realizing there is only one party that keeps doing the same damage just so they can have something to fix to keep the power over people in bad government.

I don't think I voted for the lesser of two evils. I think I voted for someone who can be a great leader.

Personally, I expect Obama's greatest successes during his first term to be on the international front. During the past 8 years the US has become hated internationally because of Bush's arrogance. I think that Obama has a good chance of reversing that impression.

 

[Bandit]

Alright maybe not. I'm just an outside observer trying to understand America.

at 17 or 18 years old we all get brainwashed by a mandatory government class in highschool. we spend the next 20 years voting on the "two party system" By the time we reach about 45 or 50, we realize something is wrong with this system & that we were brainwashed by a crooked government by voting on what some believe is 2 parties, when these two parties deliberately cause conflicts, so that the other party can come along & fix it. What you have is people voting AGAINST a party instead of FOR a person. They have made it so that no one outside of that system (singular) can ever be president by a fair vote.

Some americans are slowly waking up to the problems & gradually others have been placed on the ballot who are against the 2 party system ONLY, and believe the power that government has stolen should be returned to the people.

In ther final ballot, most voters only see or get 2 people to chose from as president. Only about 2 or 3 perecnt of the vote will go to 'other' and some of those people depending on the state do not get 'other' as an option. This is a huge battle in th USA right now and the 2 party system HATES it when their votes are divided to someone else outside of the system.

If you ever watch how the election system operates, they start out against each other and as each person gets eliminated, they build a pyramid supporting the person who wins and who they also were orignally against, telling the public to support the candidate they were so against after they lose. If you understand how delegates work, then you also know that they can take your vote and give to whoever they wish. It is a very corrupt system that americans still think is working but they dont realize it is working against them and taking the freedoms they used to have.

Obama is your basic but good motivational speaker about CHANGE. You could get the same hype about CHANGE from going to a pentecostal or southern baptist church. That is probably why you find it interesting.

Hugo Chavez?

I do not know enough about him to speak about it.