Why do Christians use the cross?

The cross used by the churches of Christendom has not the remotest connection with Christianity.
The trouble is you haven't the remotest knowledge of the history of Christianity to say what is and what isn't the case. There is archaeological evidence to show the cross was in use before the New Testament was completed, you just ignore it.

And what about the Eucharist? Your tradition has absolutely no connection with the Eucharist, and that is at the very heart of real Christianity.

+++

It is instead a sacred symbol belonging to ancient pagan religions, religions that the God of truth abhorred and against which he warned the nation of Israel. (Deut. 7:16, 25, 26)
The Cross is an ancient and sacred symbol in many cultures. Why? Because man is not totally blind to the truth, and man has always sought God.

The sun is a sacred symbol. Water is a sacred symbol. Bread is a sacred symbol ... in fact often pagan man saw God in everything, and was much more religious than many assume, and in all his ignorance, was perhaps more loved of God than those who go round knocking on people's doors.

But Christ is the Word made flesh (something you deny), 'a new and better way' and as St Paul said: "What therefore you worship, without knowing it, that I preach to you" (Acts 17:23) ... Christ is the light that illuminates that which man seeks in veils and in vestiges, in shadows and semblances ...

Wherever man seeks that which is real, and good, and true, God will find a way to talk to Him, and it is in this dialogue that his sacred signs are born.

Yes, I reject the Baals of old because God has revealed Himself in His only-begotten Son ... but Abraham worshipped God under the name of El Shaddai, which means "God of the mountains," and was a pagan diety, a divine name of the tribal god of Mesopotamian culture.

It's what's in the heart that counts, not what's on the lips.

Thomas
 
With its roots in ancient pagandom,
Show me a truth that does not have its roots in human history.

and the evidence that Christ was not impaled on the traditional cross,
Now, having shown you the error of your 'evidence' (assuming Classical Greek and Koine Greek is the same thing), and that you're out by about 300 years, the hard decision is to acknowledge that you've invested heavily in a fake, and whether you have the courage to cut loose, and start anew.

nor did the early Christians use such a symbol,
Again, all the evidence is there that they did.

one is led to this conclusion: The cross is not really Christian.
Only for those who will not see. For anyone with eyes in his head and a mind of his or her own, the conclusion is repeating a fiction will not make it real.

Thomas
 
Mee —

Can you explain why you persist in proclaiming the significance of the date '1914' when it was arrived at by arcane methods of Charles Taze Russell's measurements taken from the Great Pyramid of Gizeh?

That you should conceal this pagan 'pyramidology' by the most obtuse and intricate Scripture reference makes it only more dubious. I can 'predict' my own birthday from Scripture if you want, there's enough numbers there to play with to arrive at any number you like.

Bearing in mind that the pyramid, and the eye of Horus, both sacred symbols of pagan Egyptian culture, and both symbols used by the Jehovah's Witnesses, and that you use the sacred mathematics of the Egyptians to arrive at your magical date of 1914 ... I am inclined to think yours is a nominally-Christian religion, but actually a pagan means of leading true seekers astray ... and even I dread to go there ...

In fact. the more you look into it, the more Russell and others show evident signs of pyramid worship, the practice of magic, and culminating in the blasphemy of calling the pyramid a 'prophet of God' ...

Thomas
 
Mee —

Can you explain why you persist in proclaiming the significance of the date '1914' when it was arrived at by arcane methods of Charles Taze Russell's measurements taken from the Great Pyramid of Gizeh?

That you should conceal this pagan 'pyramidology' by the most obtuse and intricate Scripture reference makes it only more dubious. I can 'predict' my own birthday from Scripture if you want, there's enough numbers there to play with to arrive at any number you like.

Bearing in mind that the pyramid, and the eye of Horus, both sacred symbols of pagan Egyptian culture, and both symbols used by the Jehovah's Witnesses, and that you use the sacred mathematics of the Egyptians to arrive at your magical date of 1914 ... I am inclined to think yours is a nominally-Christian religion, but actually a pagan means of leading true seekers astray ... and even I dread to go there ...

In fact. the more you look into it, the more Russell and others show evident signs of pyramid worship, the practice of magic, and culminating in the blasphemy of calling the pyramid a 'prophet of God' ...

Thomas
lol :D the kingdom hall is not big enough to hold one
 
Mee —

Can you explain why you persist in proclaiming the significance of the date '1914'

Thomas
because it is a very significant date inline with bible prophecy and chronology

AND IT IS VERY SIGNIFICANT INDEED:)
 
because it is a very significant date inline with bible prophecy and chronology

AND IT IS VERY SIGNIFICANT INDEED:)
It certainly is! :eek: It signifies that they have concealed their pagan art of geomancy, or more precisely gematria, magical practices that predate the Old Testament, under the cloak of Scripture — a wolf in sheep's clothing indeed! (Mattthew 7:17).

This was a necessary deception to conceal their true colours as an Egyptian Temple Cult.

Acts 1:7
"But he said to them: It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power"
That you even seek to know that which we all know very well is not given to us to know points to something, surely? That your founders directly disobeyed the words of Christ Himself should tell you something?

I mean, it doesn't take a lot of working out ... it's there plain as day.

Thomas
 
quote/ holysmoke :

The above picture shows the typical Roman "low" Tau crucifixion cross. The Christian cross is derived from the cross of Mithra familiar to Constantin and his mother who were the ones who really established the Christian cross we associate with Christian believers. Earlier Christian worship sites seemed to favor the astrological sign of the fishes to identify Christians. /unquote


'First beginning of my beginning..spirit of spirit, the first spirit in me.. now if it be your will..give me over to immortal birth and, following that, to my underlying nature, so that, after the present need which is pressing me exceedingly, l may gaze upon the immortal beginning with the immortal spirit, that l may be born again in thought'.
Mithras liturgy

Mithraic Mysteries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cosmic Mysteries of Mithras | Mithraism | Ancient Religion
 
Jesus several times insists that those of us who would follow him carry our crosses but no one can carry a 230 lb. quote]



LOL Jesus was not meaning that christians have to carry a cross around ,he was meaning that if we are going to be a follower of him we will have persecution just like he did , it comes with the job and it especially comes from religious leaders who try to stop truth being made known .


back then they had Jesus put to death because he spoke the truth ,and make no mistake about it ,when a person is a follower of christ they will have to bear up under all the opposition that they will get along the way , it comes with the job as all true christians are well aware.



Figurative Use. “Torture stake” sometimes stands for the sufferings, shame, or torture experienced because of being a follower of Jesus Christ.

As Jesus said: “Whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.” (Mt 10:38; 16:24; Mr 8:34; Lu 9:23; 14:27)

The expression “torture stake” is also used in such a way as to represent Jesus’ death upon the stake, which made possible redemption from sin and reconciliation with God.—1Co 1:17, 18.

You give the common interpretation of what Jesus meant but I personally do not think Jesus meant any of his followers to use a torture device as a symbol of obedience to Jesus' teachings. I am a Gnostic Christian and we Gnostics believe the Gospels contain hidden knowledge that must be revealed for true spiritual understanding. We have cause to so believe as the Secret Mark gospel shows which bible scholar Morton Smith found and also found a Markian story edited out of Mark's Gospel in the New Testament that seems to be the prototype for John's Lazarus resurrection story. The story of Lazarus is a Christian reworking of the Egyptian myth of Osiris (El Osiris= "Lazarus") whose believers believed rose from the dead at the House of Annu which in John's writing was Hebrewized as Beth-any, i.e., House of Annu.

But the common meaning of carrying one's cross to follow Jesus is not wrong as it is perfectly true that when you do follow Jesus you can expect persecution, even or should I say especially from fellow Christians! :rolleyes:
 
[
"And he (John the Baptist) preached, saying, 'There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose." Mark 1:7

"quote]






To untie anothers sandal laces or to carry his sandals was considered a menial task such as was often done by slaves .John used this simile to denote his inferiority to Christ
matthew 3;11
mark 1;7

Again you use the common or obvious meaning while we Gnostics know the ancients often hid deeper meanings within their scriptures. There's just too many Egyptian religious connections within the Gospels to discount any esoteric meaning deriving from Egypt. Have you forgotten the saying "Out of Egypt I called My Son"? Why out of Egypt if there was nothing there of spiritual value? And why does Jesus' teachings mirror the meaning of the ankh cross as the symbol of knowledge of resurrection to eternal life? Again, the deeper meaning of John the Baptist words lead one to more knowledge of what resurrection to eternal life meant to the ancient mind.
 
I know of no usage of any "cross" symbol in any form of Mithraism.


cross.jpg



"The Mithra cross. The cross was developed by Mithraism centuries before Jesus Christ was born.

  • The Mithraic festival in celebration of Mithra's birth was held on December 25, the recognized date of Jesus' birth. Long before Christmas was celebrated, December 25th in the Roman world was the Natalis Solis Invicti, the birthday of the Unconquerable Sun.
  • Mithra, like Jesus, is believed to have descended from heaven to earth, shared a last supper with twelve of this followers, and redeemed mankind from sin by shedding blood and rising from the dead.
  • Mithraism postulates an apocalypse, a day of judgment, a resurrection of the flesh, and of a second coming of Mithra himself when he will finally defeat the principle of evil.
  • The Mithraists even baptize their followers as Christians do, though they use bull's blood instead of water.
  • The Mithraic priest wore robes which featured the sword (cross) of Mithra which are identical to the robes worn by Catholic priests to this day."
The hot-cross buns used by Christians at Easter are also Mithra crosses as well as being the raisin cakes used in celebration of Ishtar.
 
I know of no usage of any "cross" symbol in any form of Mithraism.

that wasnt my quote btw;

from wiki - 'mitre'
''The camelaucum (Greek: καμιλαύκιον, kamilaukion), the headdress both the mitre and the Papal tiara stem from, was originally a cap used by officials of the Imperial Byzantine court. "The tiara [from which the mitre originates] probably developed from the Phrygian cap, or frigium, a conical cap worn in the Greco-Roman world. In the 10th century the tiara was pictured on papal coins."[2] Other sources claim the tiara developed the other way around, from the mitre. Its use has possible precedents in the Phrygian mithraic sacrifice and the mitre-like headdress signifying enlightenment and received at a priest's inauguration.[3]''

David Ulansey, "The Mithraic Mysteries," Scientific American, December 1989

again, connections with Tarsus, home of Paul, the author of much of the symbology of christianity?
 
Again you use the common or obvious meaning while we Gnostics know the ancients often hid deeper meanings within their scriptures.
But everybody knows that! We have 'The Fourfold Sense of Scripture': Literal, typological, analogical, anagogical. It's no secret, really. The Jews were there before us, too.

There's just too many Egyptian religious connections within the Gospels to discount any esoteric meaning deriving from Egypt.
All truth is one, so it's hardly surprising that Christianity, for example, finds echoes in all spiritual traditions, and all spiritual traditions find their echoes in Christianity.

The 'key' is not what's common to all, but what's unique to each, that's its authentic gnosis. If you've found Egyptian gnosis, then you've missed the Christian gnosis ... but the true gnosis is not the word, but the Way of it ... that's the gnosis that cannot be spoken (and thanks to Seattlegal for that jewel).

Have you forgotten the saying "Out of Egypt I called My Son"? Why out of Egypt if there was nothing there of spiritual value?
Israel was called out of Egypt into a greater spiritual life. If Egypt was what it's about, then the call wouldn't be 'out of', but 'stay in'. The Lord called Israel out of Egypt, but you're advocating going back again ...

And why does Jesus' teachings mirror the meaning of the ankh cross as the symbol of knowledge of resurrection to eternal life?
The cross is a symbol of every tradition. Have a look at The Symbolism of the Cross by René Guénon.
"The metaphysical significance of the cross as taught in the doctrines of various traditional civilizations, with special reference to mathematical symbolism"

To get a sense of Christian gnosis, in the word at least, get hold of Meditations on the Tarot a journey into Christian Hermeticism.

Thomas
 
"But everybody knows that! We have 'The Fourfold Sense of Scripture': Literal, typological, analogical, anagogical. It's no secret, really. The Jews were there before us, too."

--So what's the problem with a Gnostic Christian interpretation?


"All truth is one, so it's hardly surprising that Christianity, for example, finds echoes in all spiritual traditions, and all spiritual traditions find their echoes in Christianity."

--"All truth is one"???? so there is no progression in spiritual knowledge and what God told Adam is the same as what Jesus Christ told Christians? I find no reason not to think the statement meaningless.

"The 'key' is not what's common to all, but what's unique to each, that's its authentic gnosis. If you've found Egyptian gnosis, then you've missed the Christian gnosis ... but the true gnosis is not the word, but the Way of it ... that's the gnosis that cannot be spoken (and thanks to Seattlegal for that jewel)."

--I've found Jewish Egyptian Mystery Religion characteristics in the Gospels through Gnosis and the Gnostic gospel hymn The Thunder, Perfect Mind, is very likely a Gnostic ode to Isis, you know the Egyptian Great Goddess who was the first to coin the words of Revelation, "I am the Beginning and the End", She who also was known as the "Bread of Life"..The Catholic Church borrowed heavily from the Temple of Isis worship costumes and even rites with the papal hats mirroring the Egyptian ones for example. Do you know why Jesus gave the two Zebedee brothers the name, "Sons of Thunder"? Because they were loud mouths? No, gnosis of hidden meanings informs us Gnostic Christians that these two were likely followers of the Thunder, Perfect Mind, Isis traditions as the Temple of Isis mystery religion was well known in Egypt and actually in the Roman Empire as well as one of the most popular of the Mystery Religions.


"Israel was called out of Egypt into a greater spiritual life. If Egypt was what it's about, then the call wouldn't be 'out of', but 'stay in'. The Lord called Israel out of Egypt, but you're advocating going back again ..."

--I'm advocating knowing the truth in the origins of Christianity. John-Mark was a Libyan Jew living in Alexandria according to Coptic Church traditions and if so Mark was then quite familiar with Egyptian religious names, symbols and concepts as would be Jesus as well as would anyone spending any significant time in Egypt. Ancient Egypt was known for its wisdom and magic traditions. It's existence as a distinct culture was one of the longest in the world and would naturally build up a knowledge base superior to any nomadic collection of tribes. This is why Alexandria became known as a storehouse of knowledge.


"The cross is a symbol of every tradition. Have a look at The Symbolism of the Cross by René Guénon.
"The metaphysical significance of the cross as taught in the doctrines of various traditional civilizations, with special reference to mathematical symbolism"

--and the Hindus use the swastika symbol to mean good luck..you miss the point of the ankh cross's meaning corresponding exactly to Jesus' teaching us about resurrection to eternal life. The sun cross of Mithra does not do that nor any other cross symbol I know of.


"To get a sense of Christian gnosis, in the word at least, get hold of Meditations on the Tarot a journey into Christian Hermeticism."

To learn what Jesus Christ was trying to teach his followers with the verbal tools of his day, read the Gospel of Humanity. It's time to move forward. This is a new aeon, a new age and God is God of the living, not the dead.
 
Acts 1:7
"But he said to them: It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power"


Thomas
yes :)it was not the time at that time ,but NOW in the time that we are living in , true knowledge is abundant DANIEL 12;4


Jehovah has his time for prophecy to be fullfilled ,and now in this time of the end true knowledge is very abundant .



at that time back then it was to early to have the understanding given them .
but NOW we are living in THRILLING TIMES:)



Daniel 12:4 states: “As for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.”
Much of what Daniel wrote was made secret and sealed up to human understanding for centuries. But what about today?

In this time of the end, many faithful Christians have ‘roved about’ in the pages of God’s Word, the Bible. The result?
With Jehovah’s blessing on their efforts, true knowledge has become abundant.

For instance, anointed Witnesses of Jehovah have been blessed with insight, enabling them to understand that Jesus Christ became heavenly King in the year 1914.


In keeping with the apostle’s words recorded at 2 Peter 1:19-21, such anointed ones and their loyal companions are ‘paying attention to the prophetic word’ and are absolutely certain that this is the time of the end.


ITS ALL HAPPENING IN THIS TIME OF THE END :)how are we responding ?
 
You give the common interpretation of what Jesus meant but I personally do not think Jesus meant any of his followers to use a torture device as a symbol of obedience to Jesus' teachings.:rolleyes:






very true :) the torture comes from those in opposition
 
holysmoke;193899Have you forgotten the saying "Out of Egypt I called My Son"?quote said:
no i havent forgotten the bible and what it REALLY teaches :)
 
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