Why do Christians use the cross?

I love the solar/lunar aspect to the piece, wheel-like, nature oriented harvest cycle, basic early symbol for God. Can you imagine the time? They had to use stone tools back them. Wow.;)

That's a very astute observation, actually, and one I overlooked - in comparative terms, the Greeks would easily have identified Jesus as a Dionysian figure - an agricultural deity that dies every winter and is reborn in the spring, with bread and wine his major offerings. It's hard to see it as coincidence that Christianity carries these major symbols.

In the Romano-Greek world, it was believed that the same gods were worshipped all over the world, simply given different names, so for someone in early Roman society the connection between Dionysus and Jesus would have been plain.
 
"Since I've found out about the esoteric or Gnostic meaning of the cross I no longer use the Christian cross to identify myself as a Christian but the Egyptian ankh cross which I now believe to be spiritually in synch with the teachings of Jesus "

Holysmoke.... You sure need something to show who you are huh? Is it really that important? Gotta love identity.

(makes, prints and mails you a "I'm a christian look at meeeeeeeeeee" badge.)

There ya go! It's in bold text to stand out better :D

If I was gonna kill someone I'd use what the romans used (stauros)... And that would be the stake :D Cause who wants to hang around for days watching someone die... *yawn* Stake um up and watch their lungs crush... Painful, and not that swift but good time.... good time.... Better than a cross...

Unless you are someone who is in the industry of making money off the cross thing..... Or someone that without realising is full of pride and too arrogant to swallow their pride and admit they are freaking wrong.... a stauros is a stauros is a stauros..... *shruggs* that ain't the cross that you worship.. It's just a pole :/ lol stick that round ya freaking necks :D
 
I believe the historical Jesus to be Yeishu ben Pantera who was killed by Jewish authorities in the Jewish manner: he was stoned to death and then his body hung on a tree which Paul refers to in Gal 3:13. I cannot give reverence to pagan Constantin's cross of death but I can give reverence to the cross that has always represented the Key to Life.
Namaste hs,

He was stoned to death?

And the Sun (Son) gives everlasting life?

aten.jpg
[SIZE=+1]THE ATEN[/SIZE]
Role: The sun itself
Appearance: Sun disc whose rays end with hands, each of which is holding an ankh to symbolize that the sun gives life.
Center of worship: Akhetaten
Google Image Result for http://www.neferchichi.com/images/godsinfo/aten.jpg
 
Hi Wil —

As you have accused me of seeking to undermine others beliefs. And think it wrong when I point out mistranslations or additions or errors in the bible.
No, I point out that what is presented as 'fact' is rarely that, but someone's thesis. I have never claimed the Bible is factually correct in every detail, nor that it was written all at one go ... I'm not sure about 'mistranslations' — except perhaps my opposition to the thesis that the Christian tradition of virgin birth is founded on a mistranslation of the Hebrew Scriptures, and nothing else.

All the time my goal is to show that while our old persian carpet is worn, threadbare, has some mistakes and issues, it is still beautiful and usable today.
Does truth get worn, old and threadbare?

Please to explain the difference here in your desire to do the same with mee.
He's doing what you're doing ... mis-representing the Bible to advance his own position.

Thomas
 
He's doing what you're doing ... mis-representing the Bible to advance his own position.

Thomas
Namaste Thomas,

Ok, I'll rephrase.

Is he not representing and defending the teachings of his church to the best of his abilities?

How does that differ from you? Or me?

Is the entire basis of our churches fact or thesis?
 
That's a very astute observation, actually, and one I overlooked - in comparative terms, the Greeks would easily have identified Jesus as a Dionysian figure - an agricultural deity that dies every winter and is reborn in the spring, with bread and wine his major offerings. It's hard to see it as coincidence that Christianity carries these major symbols.

In the Romano-Greek world, it was believed that the same gods were worshipped all over the world, simply given different names, so for someone in early Roman society the connection between Dionysus and Jesus would have been plain.

I see the light! :) Cuz it is a sunny day. I see other lights too, but we won't talk about that at present. Feeling the light is where it's at... ok, I'll shut up.;)
 
Namaste hs,

He was stoned to death?

And the Sun (Son) gives everlasting life?

aten.jpg
[SIZE=+1]THE ATEN[/SIZE]
Role: The sun itself
Appearance: Sun disc whose rays end with hands, each of which is holding an ankh to symbolize that the sun gives life.
Center of worship: Akhetaten
Google Image Result for http://www.neferchichi.com/images/godsinfo/aten.jpg

The number 8, reaching down to the females, actually held by the rays of sun. Nice images. Nothing could be as symmetric as the sun, or God.
 
Ok, I'll rephrase.
Is he not representing and defending the teachings of his church to the best of his abilities?
Yes he is, and I have every right to challenge that teaching, which is what I am doing.

How does that differ from you? Or me?
Because the tradition I defend is the original tradition.

When a new teaching arrives, something radically different than what had gone before, then the tradition has every right to challenge it. Therefore the onus is upon the latter to demonstrate that the former tradition is wrong, and likewise the onus is open me, as representing the former, to defend it.

Is the entire basis of our churches fact or thesis?
Well there's an issue: Does one regard Revelation, that is a Divine Disclosure, as a fact, or a thesis?

To me the Incarnation and its implication for humanity — salvation — it is not a thesis, it is a fact, but then I would argue I believe in what the original Christian community believed. A Greek Orthodox, say, would argue the same, so would an Oriental Orthodox, although we dispute with each other on matters of detail. On examination, we could agree that the dispute lies in the area of theological interpretation of the one doctrine — so the doctrine is fact, but we now have different theological positions. It is entirely possible however, for those positions to co-exist, if each can accommodate the other, without contradicting each other, or the original doctrine ... such is the case between Rome and Egypt, for example.

The big problem arises when a new 'thesis' contradicts the doctrine, as did the Reformation, and as do the American denominations. So we then ask on what basis is the thesis put forward ...

Thomas
 
Because the tradition I defend is the original tradition.

The big problem arises when a new 'thesis' contradicts the doctrine, as did the Reformation, and as do the American denominations. So we then ask on what basis is the thesis put forward ...

Thomas
ROTFLMAO

Do you also tell your children "Do as I say not as I do?"

Thomas, I'm afraid that is the most bogus answer possible. We were first, have argued the longest therefor correct.

Unfortunately I can see where in reality it is the only one you have.

We are no different, you defend your thesis, not fact, we defend our thesis not fact.
 
Really ... why?

Do you also tell your children "Do as I say not as I do?"
I don't see the relevance of your argument. I rely on tradition, it doesn't rely on me, so why what I do has anything to do with this I fail to see. My tradition says "Do whatever He tells you", as did His mother. She was the first church, really.

Thomas, I'm afraid that is the most bogus answer possible.
Really, why? Is no-one allowed to be first? Are inarguable truths always bogus?

We were first, have argued the longest therefor correct.
Can you explain why the first must necessarily be wrong. At what point, and why, does direct transmission of truth become invalid?

Unfortunately I can see where in reality it is the only one you have.
Well you still haven't offered any reasonable argument as to what's wrong with it.

We are no different, you defend your thesis, not fact, we defend our thesis not fact.
You have still not shown my 'facts' to be without foundation.

Thomas
 
Can you explain why the first must necessarily be wrong. At what point, and why, does direct transmission of truth become invalid?

You have still not shown my 'facts' to be without foundation.

Thomas
Namaste Thomas,

The first isn't always wrong, it just is not any kind of proof that it is right. I've got no use for the first map of the world or any city as something I can use today. Nor do i have use for Roman numerals, or early science as something that is intrinsicly valuable today.

Direct transmission of truth?

Your facts?

We'll need another thread.
 
Namaste hs,

He was stoned to death?

And the Sun (Son) gives everlasting life?

aten.jpg
[SIZE=+1]THE ATEN[/SIZE]
Role: The sun itself
Appearance: Sun disc whose rays end with hands, each of which is holding an ankh to symbolize that the sun gives life.
Center of worship: Akhetaten
Google Image Result for http://www.neferchichi.com/images/godsinfo/aten.jpg

Yup. Yeishu and I think his five disciples also were stoned to death as per Jewish law for blasphemy. No Romans involved which is one of the reasons Christians did not know know about the Talmud accounts. Given the immense hostility Christians threw at Jews through the centuries for supposedly conspiring with Romans to have Jesus killed there would be little reason for Jewish rabbis to fabricate a tale about Jesus wherein they and they alone were responsible for Jesus (Yeishu's) death. Remember, Yeishu's mother was called Miriam ben Stada and his father Joseph ben Pantera in the Talmudic accounts leaving little room for questioning the identity of Yeishu, especially knowing "he led many astray". Yeishu was condemned for blasphemy for bringing back the secret Name of God sewn into the skin of his arm and using the secret Name for healing people and for pretending to worship a brick in front of his rabbi when his rabbi refused to forgive Jesus for supposedly eyeing an "innkeeper's daughter". Personally, I really like Yeishu's style and his protest (I know just what he meant by the brick symbolism) and it gives motivation for Jesus Christ's protest against Judaism's lack of forgiveness of sinners.

The Sun has always been the major symbol for male deities. Remember who was the first monotheist and the very likely theological linkage between Ahkenaton and later Hebrew monotheism, both developing out of the same area. Jesus Christ of Roman Catholicism too has a close theological relationship with sun gods and Jesus through the cross of Mithra that many think Constantin saw in the sky. Mithra's mythology and attributes are very similar to Jesus Christ's. And then there's the Brahma/Abraham connection which is another sun-god relationship, Brahma being a sun-god.

Because of the Gospel of Humanity message being found in the New Testament Gospels in metaphoric manner, I know that the ankh cross' meaning as the Key to eternal life takes it beyond any solar deity worship and into deepest cosmology.
 
The first isn't always wrong, it just is not any kind of proof that it is right.
No, but then the onus is on someone to disprove it, not just roll about on the floor laughing because of it. I mean, it's no proof it's wrong, is it, and on balance, it's more likely to be right.

I've got no use for the first map of the world or any city as something I can use today.
If that's what you think, then you really don't understand Christianity at all. It's not about the ephemeral, the superficial, the transient or the relative. It's about the Way, the Truth, and the Life ... it's about the Eternal, which is timeless, ageless, changeless ...

Nor do i have use for Roman numerals, or early science as something that is intrinsicly valuable today.
Ah, you mean you've bought into the secular ideal of 'progress' — there's a problem for you, as such ideas have no place in any of the great spiritual traditions.

Direct transmission of truth?
Your facts?
Who are you asking, me, or Jesus?

You're not talking about the actuality of Christianity at all, which is something I've said from the outset. I don't think you actually believe in Christianity in any real sense, you're just talking about a type of sociology with a Christian badge to give it a certain cachet.

I think if you took Christ out of the mix, you wouldn't notice any substantial difference.

Thomas
 
Jesus several times insists that those of us who would follow him carry our crosses but no one can carry a 230 lb. quote]



LOL Jesus was not meaning that christians have to carry a cross around ,he was meaning that if we are going to be a follower of him we will have persecution just like he did , it comes with the job and it especially comes from religious leaders who try to stop truth being made known .


back then they had Jesus put to death because he spoke the truth ,and make no mistake about it ,when a person is a follower of christ they will have to bear up under all the opposition that they will get along the way , it comes with the job as all true christians are well aware.



Figurative Use. “Torture stake” sometimes stands for the sufferings, shame, or torture experienced because of being a follower of Jesus Christ.

As Jesus said: “Whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.” (Mt 10:38; 16:24; Mr 8:34; Lu 9:23; 14:27)

The expression “torture stake” is also used in such a way as to represent Jesus’ death upon the stake, which made possible redemption from sin and reconciliation with God.—1Co 1:17, 18.
 
[
"And he (John the Baptist) preached, saying, 'There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose." Mark 1:7

"quote]






To untie anothers sandal laces or to carry his sandals was considered a menial task such as was often done by slaves .John used this simile to denote his inferiority to Christ
matthew 3;11
mark 1;7
 
The cross used by the churches of Christendom has not the remotest connection with Christianity.

It is instead a sacred symbol belonging to ancient pagan religions, religions that the God of truth abhorred and against which he warned the nation of Israel.
(Deut. 7:16, 25, 26)

It was a recognized symbol in the religion of ancient Egypt.
 
With its roots in ancient pagandom, and the evidence that Christ was not impaled on the traditional cross, nor did the early Christians use such a symbol, one is led to this conclusion:
The cross is not really Christian.
 
I would rather have the bible as my authority it is better than manmade traditions
The Bible is a manmade tradition — we wrote it.

Your lot came along, didn't like it, re-translated it to suit their own agenda, altering terms and meanings, hence the tradition of JW interpretation begins with your founders, whereas mine is in continuity with those who wrote it, and the Holy Spirit who inspired them to do so.

Thomas
 
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