Why do Christians use the cross?

the reformation wars? yes that was totally politics [other blood bath].

The so-called wars of religion.... hmmmmm, I'm taking a look back at my European history, and you know what I see? War. Lots and lots of war. War before the reformation, and war after the reformation. Lots of it.

How important was religion as a cause to the wars of religion? Would Europe have been at peace otherwise? Not likely.

I get your point, though. But seriously, how many cases have you cited to prove that religion is the motivation for war, as opposed to how many you could have cited to agree with me in my thesis that war is more complicated? I heard no comment about the Khmer Rouge, or Mao, or Ghengis Khan. I don't even think I brought up Stalin yet. Really, how strong is your argument in the context of the gulags and the, oh, ten or twenty million who died in them?
 
Is​
the Cross Really Christian?

A ROMAN emperor was preparing for battle and felt the need of help from the gods. As the story goes, he saw a bright light in the sky in the form of a cross and with it the words: “By this conquer.” Adopting the sign as the standard for his army, he went on to win a series of crucial victories that led to his becoming sole ruler of the Roman Empire in 324 C.E.



The hero of this famous story was Constantine the Great.


From that time on, the Roman Church became the official religion of the empire and grew rapidly in prestige, popularity and power. At the same time, the cross became the official symbol of the church—it gradually adorned religious buildings, was erected on hilltops and mountains, at crossroads and in public squares. It was hung on the walls of homes and around the necks of millions of people.


so as we can see Jesus was no part of this at all , but it was mixed in and that is not good is it?


Did Jesus not say that whoever wants to follow him must pick up his cross and carry it?

Perhaps JWs prefer stakes because they're lighter, and more aerodynamic...
 
marsh, religion has been both a cloak and dagger for violence since history was written so l don't know what books you have been reading; perhaps JC meant his followers to carry the cross within rather than literally.

Christian theories of the Atonement: Conclusions

haven't you heard of the ummah? despite christianity *eventually* separating from the inevitability of modern statehood/government it still has a 'hold', else why is it still a statutory regulatory subject in schools for instance. Maybe its the U.S. constitution and mindset in thinking religion is a 'private affair' but elsewhere it is seen differently [in less secularly developed countries of course]. Sure l agree it is manipulated, but the individuals comprising the religion are prepared to fight a 'just' war on behalf of spiritual authority; other religions are 'false' or 'satanist' etc etc - that is what smoke was calling 'godless' methinks.

an example of a government constitution which has 'religious' conflicts

Religion in Indonesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
marsh, religion has been both a cloak and dagger for violence since history was written so l don't know what books you have been reading; perhaps JC meant his followers to carry the cross within rather than literally.

Christian theories of the Atonement: Conclusions

haven't you heard of the ummah? despite christianity *eventually* separating from the inevitability of modern statehood/government it still has a 'hold', else why is it still a statutory regulatory subject in schools for instance. Maybe its the U.S. constitution and mindset in thinking religion is a 'private affair' but elsewhere it is seen differently [in less secularly developed countries of course]. Sure l agree it is manipulated, but the individuals comprising the religion are prepared to fight a 'just' war on behalf of spiritual authority; other religions are 'false' or 'satanist' etc etc - that is what smoke was calling 'godless' methinks.

an example of a government constitution which has 'religious' conflicts

Religion in Indonesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


My, that's quite a generalization you've made. Since the beginning of history? Really? And you know this how?

What books have I been reading? University books. I read them when I did my degree in literature and humanities. In actual fact, I read quite a bit of analytical history, especially on the topic of war, and you know what the books say? They say that history is not as black and white as you're trying to make it out to be, and the very fact that we're in a "religion bad, no religion good" argument right now testifies to the general ignorance of this discussion.

TO REITERATE, we are on this topic because somebody accused Christianity of having a godless history, to which I took exception and invited the accuser to qualify his remarks (which, to my recollection, he has not). And now EVERYONE who has an axe to grind has wiggled out of the woodwork to weigh in on their reasons why ALL OF CHRISTIANITY is made up of bloodthirsty maniacs and epsilon-semimoron stooges.

That's great history, guys. Very unprejudiced and insightful.

By the way, why are you using an Islamic country as your example, when we're talking about Christianity? Why not go a step farther and use a less-moderate country as your example, like Iran? I lived in southeast Asia for four years, so I'm well aware of how their politics differ from ours. However, they still are politics; Indonesia is a republic, and not a theocracy. Thus, when war breaks out it is a political decision, rather than a religious one.
 
My, that's quite a generalization you've made. ....

....And now EVERYONE who has an axe to grind has wiggled out of the woodwork to weigh in on their reasons why ALL OF CHRISTIANITY is made up of bloodthirsty maniacs and epsilon-semimoron stooges...
Namaste Marsh,

Funny how you speak of generalizations and then you so appropriately highlight yours.

As a Christian, I sure don't have such lack mentality, don't feel I'm getting beat at every turn by everyone.

Funny how the Jews, Muslims, Bahai, and Atheists all say the same thing.

Who is this mysterious THEY that is abusing ALL religons and atheists too?

Why is it EVERYONE feels so persecuted? We live in an abundant and loving world in my perception.
 
Namaste Marsh,

Funny how you speak of generalizations and then you so appropriately highlight yours.

As a Christian, I sure don't have such lack mentality, don't feel I'm getting beat at every turn by everyone.

Funny how the Jews, Muslims, Bahai, and Atheists all say the same thing.

Who is this mysterious THEY that is abusing ALL religons and atheists too?

Why is it EVERYONE feels so persecuted? We live in an abundant and loving world in my perception.




I guess it's not hard for one to go through life without feeling persecuted if one doesn't actually stand for anything...

:D
 
Well I sound like me now.

What does the Bible say ?



1 Corinthians 1:18-25 (New International Version)

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[a] 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
 
Actually, I'd quite like to hear Mee's take on your post, G. Mee, does your translation say that "the message of the stake is foolishness to those who are perishing..." by any chance?

lol I had to look this up in the new world interpretation of the bible.

18 For the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is God’s power. 19 For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] I will shove aside.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing.
22 For both the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ impaled, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness; 24 however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men.
The word cross = stauros

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon


Polyglot Bible: Revelation: G4716
 
lol I had to look this up in the new world interpretation of the bible.

The word cross = stauros

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon


Polyglot Bible: Revelation: G4716


I should have known. And when it says that they nailed Jesus to the cross, I'm sure they interpret it as being impale him on the stake, yeah? But that causes a bit of a problem, doesn't it? I mean, how would one survive for six hours if one's body had been impaled on a stake? And Jesus died faster than most, because they came to break his legs. By the way, why would breaking your legs kill you faster if you were impaled on a stake?
 
Why Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Not Use the Cross in Worship?


Jehovah’s Witnesses firmly believe that the death of Jesus Christ provided the ransom that opens the door to everlasting life for those who exercise faith in him. (Matthew 20:28; John 3:16)

However, they do not believe that Jesus died on a cross, as is often depicted in traditional pictures. It is their belief that Jesus died on an upright stake with no crossbeam.


The use of the cross can be traced back to Mesopotamia, to two thousand years before Christ. Crosses even decorated Scandinavian rock engravings during the Bronze Age, centuries before Jesus was born.

Such non-Christians used the cross “as a magic sign . . . giving protection, bringing good luck,” wrote Sven Tito Achen, Danish historian and expert on symbols, in the book Symbols Around Us.

It is no wonder that the New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The cross is found in both pre-Christian and non-Christian cultures, where it has largely a cosmic or natural signification.”

Why, then, have the churches chosen the cross as their most sacred symbol?


W. E. Vine, respected British scholar, offers these hard facts: “By the middle of the
3rd cent. A.D. . . . pagans were received into the churches . . . and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, . . . with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted.”—Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words.


Vine further notes that both the noun “cross” and the verb “crucify” refer to “a stake or pale . . . distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross.”

In agreement with this, Oxford University’s Companion Bible says: “The evidence is . . . that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle.” Clearly, the churches have adopted a tradition that is not Biblical.



Historian Achen, quoted above observes: “In the two centuries after the death of Jesus it is doubtful that the Christians ever used the device of the cross.” To the early Christians, he adds, the cross “must have chiefly denoted death and evil, like the guillotine or the electric chair to later generations.”


More important, no matter what device was used for the torture and execution of Jesus, no image or symbol of it should become an object of devotion or worship for Christians. “Flee from idolatry,” commands the Bible. (1 Corinthians 10:14)

Jesus himself gave the real identifying mark of his true followers. He said: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”—John 13:35.


In all matters of worship, Jehovah’s Witnesses, like the first-century Christians, strive to follow the Bible rather than tradition. (Romans 3:4; Colossians 2:8)
Because of this, they do not use the cross in worship.
 
steadfast199 said:
More important, no matter what device was used for the torture and execution of Jesus, no image or symbol of it should become an object of devotion or worship for Christians. “Flee from idolatry,” commands the Bible. (1 Corinthians 10:14)

I agree with you here on the subject of idolatry, but the vast majority of Christians do not view the cross as an object of worship, rather a symbol reminding us of the sacrifice Jesus suffered through in dying for the sins of man.

Aside from that, Jesus encouraged His disciples to 'take up his cross and follow Me.' (Matt. 16:24). So what do you think that means?

And what do you make of Paul's statement?

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." - I Cor. 1:18
 
Aside from that, Jesus encouraged His disciples to 'take up his cross and follow Me.' (Matt. 16:24). So what do you think that means?
Interesting question....seems it must have meant something different prior to him being crucified then afterwords.

What do you think it meant prior? As for us, we see this phrase only post...
 
Why Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Not Use the Cross in Worship?


Jehovah’s Witnesses firmly believe that the death of Jesus Christ provided the ransom that opens the door to everlasting life for those who exercise faith in him. (Matthew 20:28; John 3:16)

However, they do not believe that Jesus died on a cross, as is often depicted in traditional pictures. It is their belief that Jesus died on an upright stake with no crossbeam....


...The use of the cross can be traced back to Mesopotamia, to two thousand years before Christ. Crosses even decorated Scandinavian rock engravings during the Bronze Age, centuries before Jesus was born...

...Vine further notes that both the noun “cross” and the verb “crucify” refer to “a stake or pale . . . distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross.”...

...In all matters of worship, Jehovah’s Witnesses, like the first-century Christians, strive to follow the Bible rather than tradition. (Romans 3:4; Colossians 2:8)
Because of this, they do not use the cross in worship.

That Jesus paid a price for us with his life is all the matters, as you state. However, for the sake of argument, let us consider what has been opined:

Vine is in error when calling the English noun "Cross" and the English verb "Crucify", as coming from the same root syntax, let alone being a simple stake in the ground, from which something is hung. The actual root is "Crux", which is Latin for Cross, as in cross roads, crossed objects intersecting each other perpendicular.

The English term "Crucify" comes from another Latin root syntax derived from the word "Crucible", which means challenge, or tribulation, or testing through difficult times and situations.

Hence the statement "To be crucified on a cross", would in and of itself be a double entendre, and incorrect grammar, if both variants came from one root word (crux). But taken into proper context, the observer would recognize the sentence literally means "To endure a crucible on a cross of (wood, metal, road, challenging life situation, whatever is crossed). Consider the statement "You crossed me", which literally means one has gone perpandicular to another, by wish, or by act. Then there is "I feel, or am being crucified", which means to be placed in a difficult,harrowing, impossible, troubling, terrifying situation. It does not mean one is at the "crux" (or decision point), of the matter...

Finally, if JWs accept Vine's definition of a cross as being a stake by which one is hung, then the only issue would be the visual image most Christians imagine, verses the visual image JWs would imagine at Christ being hung to die. By Vine's definition, JWs would have to admit that the stake Christ was hung on was in fact called "a cross".

The reality is that regardless of how a Cross is envisioned, Christ was hung and died on "a dead tree" (wood).

The rest is semantics...:)
 
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