religion, a means to an end, or an end in itself?

shawn

shawn

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Religion of any and all stripe and kind seems to be for very many people, an end in itself and occupies their minds constantly.
For others, it is seen as a means to an end.
What is it for you and why?
 
Well I have admittedly seen religion be a means to an end by some people.. belonging to the "right church" or group can be a way of developing contacts and so be a means.. but for others, religion is an end in its itself rehardless of the social contacts ..that is it is it's own fulfillment and fulflls the life of the believer and the society of the friends or fellow believers as well.

We must be united. We must love each other. We must ever praise each other. We must bestow commendation upon all people, thus removing the discord and hatred which have caused alienation amongst men.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 99


- Art
 
arthra said:
Well I have admittedly seen religion be a means to an end by some people.. belonging to the "right church" or group can be a way of developing contacts and so be a means.. but for others, religion is an end in its itself rehardless of the social contacts
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Hi Art,

I think I hear what you're saying. I think that's called extrinsic religion.

People talk about religion as a social phenomena. I suppose it is to some degree, but the collective aspect shouldn't overshadow the personal.

In my opinion, the proper place of religion is not to be an end in itself because that risks idolatry. I think it's a means to make our lives manageable so that we can embody values by which we can present to the L-rd in a way that we can be proud of - i.e., as reasonably aware and together persons of fidelity and purpose who seek traces of G-d's presence in all things, try to keep sight of nonmaterial aspects of existence, and uncover ultimate truths.
 
.


"Religion" is a means,

for which "Faith" is an end.
 
fumanchuformayor.jpg



!! damn rite
 
shawn said:
Religion of any and all stripe and kind seems to be for very many people, an end in itself and occupies their minds constantly.
Click to expand...
I could say the same about interfaith religion. I have seen that where they say this is heaven and this is home, this forum is like church and what not. Fortunately there is a shift from religion to no religion that has grown rapdily to 15% in the USA in the last 20 years. We shall see if it helps make things better because religion surely has not. Along that line of thought, I am also seeing a shift in politics for more independents in the lower ranking and city offices, so maybe that will help also. We shall see.

It is only a few people who allow it to occupy their minds constantly to where they spend each and every moment typing words about it, reading and talking about it. Most people do not think about it or want to talk about it.

shawn said:
For others, it is seen as a means to an end.
What is it for you and why?
Click to expand...

I removed myself from all religion because I see religion as many ideas that the human mind creates rather than factual or faith. I view things more in paradox and possibilty. I get more out of it that way. That is not to say that people do not have real experiences for the individual and I would never question individual experience as valid. Collective as in taught experience/ideas in religion I would question because it is dogma forcing and demanding the mind to think and feel a certain way about things and that I view as a problem.

I liked your question because it was different from the typical reruns here:)
 
shawn said:
Religion of any and all stripe and kind seems to be for very many people, an end in itself and occupies their minds constantly.
For others, it is seen as a means to an end.
What is it for you and why?
Click to expand...

I can see how it has been either for people in any religion.

For me, it is neither. It is a communal-social expression of the "end in itself." The "end in itself" is being what I really am under the layers of grime- being a vessel for that variously named reality that is love and compassion- God, the ground of being, Allah, and so forth. It is wiping away the grime and finding in myself what I have faith is there, and what I have faith is the potential of every human being.

Religion is a communal human transformation in response to perceived ultimacy. That's a wonderful definition from a PhD in religion studies that I tweaked as an anthropologist. :) Religion is the communal form of spirituality- it is the social expression of people trying to reach this transformation, this potential we sense within us. Different cultures and societies make up different ways to reach this potential and understand it differently because until one reaches it, we're very limited by our conditioning. So religion, interestingly enough, is both culturally bound and encourages individual transcendence of ordinary social life. It's a bridge between cultural conditioning and transformation/transcendence if we allow it to be and look deeply into ourselves and the religion in question.

In some ways, religion is a means to an end (transcendence) but in others, it is transcendence when approached deeply. That is, in deeply participating in religion (communal) and spirituality (personal/individual), we are already transcending the mundane and transforming ourselves. So it is an end in itself.

Can you tell that, like Bandit, I find the most truth in paradox and possibility? :D
 
citizenzen said:
A means to an end,

or an end in itself?



Yes.
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Who is going to take care of the widows and orphans then? And when will that end (taking care of widows and orphans)?

Your expectations of religion ending...not as long as you have environmentalists, political advocates, or PETA extremists, let alone Christians, Muslims, Bahai' or Jews.
 
Currently considering your questions, I think this...

If you had asked me this question twenty years ago my answer would be different to what it is now. Back then, religion was all, and further developing the relationship between my God and myself was the only important thing... other people mattered little... they did not have what we had...

It was like falling in love- intense, just the two of us, loving each other as much as we could, spending lots of time embracing...

yet, just like a relationship with a human being, the relationship between my God and myself could not survive with just the two of us... our closeness was almost oppressive, the anxiety at seperation traumatic, and then arguements started to creep in, and we split...

God was a liar, a cheat, a heartbreaker, the type of lover who was never really free to love you, a demanding lover whose love came with conditions attached to it, a lover who wanted you to behave in a certain way but would be capriciousness personified himself...

I could never give up on my first love though- you never do, there is always a small part of you which yearns for that purity of connection again, when everything is new...

so I looked around for a new God, someone who would surpass this old lover, replace him in my mind with something better, a truer love, and oh, I fell in love many, many times and had my heart broken each time...

All the Gods were cheats and heartbreakers! I could not find a perfect love in all the heavens...

so I looked closer to home... I realised that the perfect lover I sought was a reflection of myself, a bright shadow of my own, and realising this, finding the means to the end became more important than the end itself...

yes, my heart will always belong to that first love, and if he called me one night, for a booty call, I would immediately phone for a taxi, but we will never marry, will never live together, will never raise a family...

He will be my secret lover, a fond memory, an occasional meeting, but his flaws prevent me from accepting him for what he is...
 
shawn said:
Religion of any and all stripe and kind seems to be for very many people, an end in itself and occupies their minds constantly.
For others, it is seen as a means to an end.
What is it for you and why?
Click to expand...

Religion -- any religion -- can be an instrument that leads us to spiritual enlightenement (a state of profound understanding and loving compassion).:) On the other hand, religion can be (and has been) an instrument that leads us to ignorance and lack of compassion.:(

Hermano Luis
 
Quahom1 said:
Who is going to take care of the widows and orphans then? And when will that end (taking care of widows and orphans)?

Your expectations of religion ending...not as long as you have environmentalists, political advocates, or PETA extremists, let alone Christians, Muslims, Bahai' or Jews.
Click to expand...

Yes, there are some excellent congregations out there. Here in C Springs we have a group of churches that form an ecumenical organization dedicated to helping those who would not ordinarily get help from public programs.

But as for the concept of religions, the idea of a belief fleshed out by protocol, discipline and dogma, this can be an end in itself if one is not careful to remember what the result of practice should bring.

Notice the veracity with which the "program" ( and I use this word to be descriptive, no disrespect intended) is defended should it come under fire.
What the program points to, what it intends to describe needs no defense, for it is the all-in-all, actuality, or God if you will.

When I watch and read those who become angry and somewhat violent in their defense of a chosen path, I wonder "what is really being defended here?" A well crafted tool can easily become a weapon.
 
Quahom1 said:
Your expectations of religion ending...not as long as you have environmentalists, political advocates, or PETA extremists, let alone Christians, Muslims, Bahai' or Jews.
Click to expand...

I have no expectation nor desire of religion ending. That is not what I think the the OP asked.

I agreed that religion was both a means to an end and an end in itself.

From my buddhist standpoint, early in my practice enlightenment was a goal to strive for and achieve. The more I practiced the more I realize that the practice is itself the expression of enlightenment and there is nothing to be achieved from it.

It is both the means and the end.
 
citizenzen said:
..... the practice is itself the expression of enlightenment and there is nothing to be achieved from it.

.
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That is really well put and describes my take on it too. Enlightenment for me is like cream cakes. The odd one is ok but pigging out on it is just sheer self-indulgence and tends to make you fatuous.
 
Netti-Netti said:
Hello C,

What is "the practice"?
Click to expand...

Garden variety Zen Buddhism. While in the past I've spent time with the Zen Center of Los Angeles, I now practice alone (just like the Buddha did).

Coming here and knocking heads with you folks helps too. I get plenty of practice exercising patience.
 
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