human cloning

[juantoo3]

Fertility Doctor Claims Success in Cloning Human Embryos

I saw reference to this in the news a couple of days ago. Of course they referred to Dolly the sheep...which to me wasn't very comforting. Dolly had to be put down after a very short and disease ridden life.

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Dolly the sheep clone dies young

It is also noted that President Obama, while supportive of embryonic stem cell research, is opposed to the cloning of humans:

"We cannot ever tolerate misuse or abuse. And we will ensure that our government never opens the door to the use of cloning for human reproduction," Obama said. "It is dangerous, profoundly wrong, and has no place in our society, or any society."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/fir...bama-says-government-open-door-human-cloning/

 

[citizenzen]

I saw reference to this in the news a couple of days ago. Of course they referred to Dolly the sheep...which to me wasn't very comforting. Dolly had to be put down after a very short and disease ridden life.

You made me look it up.

It turns out that Dolly did die at six, relatively young for domestic sheep.

But since Dolly there's been a great deal more clones produced by many different species including instinct ones.

 

[seattlegal]

Fertility Doctor Claims Success in Cloning Human Embryos

I saw reference to this in the news a couple of days ago. Of course they referred to Dolly the sheep...which to me wasn't very comforting. Dolly had to be put down after a very short and disease ridden life.

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Dolly the sheep clone dies young

It is also noted that President Obama, while supportive of embryonic stem cell research, is opposed to the cloning of humans:



Obama Says Government Will Not Open the Door for Human Cloning - First 100 Days of Presidency - Politics FOXNews.com

I call BS to Zavos's claims.
Maverick's human cloning claims condemned by leading scientists | Society | guardian.co.uk

Zavos, who has clinics in the USA and in Cyprus where he was born, claims to be helping people by attempting to recreate loved ones who have died. He is said to have engineered a hybrid embryo using the blood cells of a 10-year-old girl called Cady, who died in a car crash in the USA, and the egg of a cow that had its nucleus removed. Zavos said this was done to study the cloning process and that he would not put a hybrid embryo into a human womb. But he anticipated taking cells from it and inserting them into a human egg, which he said he believed would safely produce the clone of Cady that her parents wanted.​

Just which type of cell did he use for the somatic cell nuclear transfer? Red blood cells contain no nucleus, and leukocytes are associated with the body's immune system, which would pose a huge problem...

Let's not forget about the fraud perpetuated by Dr. Hwang Woo-Suk of Korea regarding his human somatic cell nuclear transfer claims...

 

[juantoo3]

But since Dolly there's been a great deal more clones produced by many different species including instinct ones.

Agreed, there have been many more attempts...dogs, cats, monkeys, cattle...I am reasonably sure there are others besides.

Just which "instinct" species were you referring to? Any references?

 

[juantoo3]

Let's not forget about the fraud perpetuated by Dr. Hwang Woo-Suk of Korea regarding his human somatic cell nuclear transfer claims...

I remember that...thanks for the reminder.

 

[shawn]

I can see a use for this in in say, cloning tissue or organs for yourself for surgery. Say your knees are done and you need a new one or two, or a kidney or spleen.
But cloning whole people we seem to breed and multiply quite like rabbits already.
Maybe if they could clone the intelligence factor and somehow impart it into the simple amongst us would be useful.

 

[citizenzen]

Just which "instinct" species were you referring to? Any references?

It was from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, in the Dolly article.

They say it was an Pyrenean ibex, cloned from a skin sample that had been preserved in liquid nitrogen.

 

[seattlegal]

I can see a use for this in in say, cloning tissue or organs for yourself for surgery. Say your knees are done and you need a new one or two, or a kidney or spleen.
But cloning whole people we seem to breed and multiply quite like rabbits already.
Maybe if they could clone the intelligence factor and somehow impart it into the simple amongst us would be useful.

Can't do that. (Scientists have had problems even trying to get mouse embryonic stem cells to differentiate into sperm cells, and the offspring produced from these cloned sperm cells via in vitro fertilization and implantation had many problems...)

However, you can use adult stem cells grown on a scaffold/form for replacement heart valves, etc.

 

[juantoo3]

It was from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, in the Dolly article.

They say it was an Pyrenean ibex, cloned from a skin sample that had been preserved in liquid nitrogen.

Oh, yes, I saw that...failed attempt:

Using DNA from skin samples kept in liquid nitrogen the scientists managed to clone the Ibex from domestic goat egg-cells. The newborn ibex died shortly after birth due to physical defects in its lungs. However, it is the first time an extinct animal has been cloned, and may open doors for saving endangered and newly extinct species by resurrecting them from frozen tissue.[22]

emphasis mine, -jt3

Don't you just love fine print, especially when its right in the middle of the article?

 

[citizenzen]

Oh, yes, I saw that...failed attempt:

It gestated and was born alive. Calling that a failed attempt only sees the negative.

Many beings created naturally die in utero, at birth, shortly after birth, and prematurely as well.

 

[juantoo3]

I can see a use for this in in say, cloning tissue or organs for yourself for surgery. Say your knees are done and you need a new one or two, or a kidney or spleen.
But cloning whole people we seem to breed and multiply quite like rabbits already.
Maybe if they could clone the intelligence factor and somehow impart it into the simple amongst us would be useful.

From what I understand "they" have been culturing spare parts for a while now. I remember seeing a video of a human ear being grown on a mouse's back in one attempt, and there is a group that creates a "scaffold" of cartilaginous tissue and convinces stem cell tissue to form various bodily tissues in another video (might have been a NOVA or Scientific American program). We still have to deal with issues of tissue rejection, even with stem cells. So you are right, if we could find a way to use a patient's own tissue to manufacture new body parts, rejection issues should dwindle substantially. Then the only remaining hurdle is to build these replacement tissues in a timely manner. If a patient needs a new liver *now,* it isn't helpful to need a 2-5 year lead time to culture an adult size liver (as an example, I'm making this part up to illustrate. I don't know how long it would actually take to grow, but several months would seem the minimum).

 

[juantoo3]

However, you can use adult stem cells grown on a scaffold/form for replacement heart valves, etc.

Isn't it wild to actually watch them pulse on their own without any external stimulus? Awesome!

 

[juantoo3]

It gestated and was born alive. Calling that a failed attempt only sees the negative.

Many beings created naturally die in utero, at birth, shortly after birth, and prematurely as well.

I suppose one could equally be short sighted in only wanting to see the "positive" side. I am a realist, I look at both sides. What I see is that there is a lot, a *whole* lot, of fine tuning that needs to be done before we can consider cloning humans even if only for reproductive purposes for infertile couples.

Mass producing an army of Arnold Schwartznegars is an ethical issue that needs to temper and control this issue of human cloning to keep it from getting out of hand, but so far the major hurdle keeping it in check appears to be the frail health and deformities that are more prevalent in cloned critters compared with *normally* created critters.

 

[seattlegal]

I can see a use for this in in say, cloning tissue or organs for yourself for surgery. Say your knees are done and you need a new one or two, or a kidney or spleen.
But cloning whole people we seem to breed and multiply quite like rabbits already.
Maybe if they could clone the intelligence factor and somehow impart it into the simple amongst us would be useful.

When it comes to anyone making claims about regeneration of organs in a laboratory via cloning from undifferentiated cells, let the buyer beware. From what I understand about regeneration of limbs in salamanders, correct differentiation is all about location, location, location. Any complex organ or limb regeneration from undifferentiated cells would have to be grown in situ (within the body, in the correct place where the regenerated part would naturally be.) {Google up "salamander regeneration" for more information.} Therefore, anyone claiming to be able to grow cloned limbs or complex organs in a laboratory would have to use a person as an "axlotl tank" like the Bene Theilaxu did in Frank Herbert's Dune series. The "axlotl tank technology" was a closely guarded secret of the Bene Theilaxu--because they were using their females as "axlotl tanks."

 

[citizenzen]

I suppose one could equally be short sighted in only wanting to see the "positive" side.

I agree. Those viewpoints would be equally myopic.

 

[Avi]

Quote: Juan

I suppose one could equally be short sighted in only wanting to see the "positive" side. I am a realist, I look at both sides. What I see is that there is a lot, a *whole* lot, of fine tuning that needs to be done before we can consider cloning humans even if only for reproductive purposes for infertile couples.

Mass producing an army of Arnold Schwartznegars is an ethical issue that needs to temper and control this issue of human cloning to keep it from getting out of hand, but so far the major hurdle keeping it in check appears to be the frail health and deformities that are more prevalent in cloned critters compared with *normally* created critters.

Juan, in my view, the “positive side”, that is the potential of cloning, is enormous and could be the greatest technology achievement of the 21st century. Imagine the ability to clone organs: heart, kidney, liver, pancrease, etc. This could have a great impact on quality of life.

On the other hand there are bioethical issues which must be considered seriously. One of these, which you point to, and I agree with is access to and control of this technology and for that reason we need excellent leadership.

And cloning a complete person, unlikely for many years, I can’t see why we would want to do this ? May be someday, but today I cannot see a reason.

 

[juantoo3]

And cloning a complete person, unlikely for many years, I can’t see why we would want to do this ? May be someday, but today I cannot see a reason.

Well, the thing is, so far it seems more practical to clone an entire organism than to clone and culture a complex organ process...like a limb (as Seattlegal pointed out). Simpler organ processes, like a heart valve or similar, can be processed but the culture medium and "flask/tank/container" are fairly complex and difficult machinery to maintain and upkeep, and there are a zillion things to go wrong. All it takes is a power outage for a few hours and months of work goes down the tubes...

Whereas, in super simplistic terms, cloning an entire critter is as "simple" as fertilizing and implanting an egg into a host mother and letting her do the culturing...pretty much a "set and forget" process, let nature run its course.

All ethics aside of course, , because then we enter the realm of creating a life to kill it to preserve other life...blah blah blah...which is one thing when speaking of cattle, bred and raised to feed us...and quite another when thinking of raising spare parts for aging human beings. Would you raise your grandchild for spare parts to keep yourself alive a bit longer? Could you give the order to harvest an organ from your grandchild raised for this purpose, knowing it would end their life? Would it be any easier if you don't have to look behind the curtain, and don't have to wield the scalpel yourself? Do we become Morlocks, or do we become Eloi?

Isn't medical ethics a wonderful meditation?

 

[shawn]

A big question with this is : would a cloned human have a soul?
Or would it be somewhat different from natural humans?
Maybe being no different than livestock?
People who are on the spiritual side of the fence, who believe in such a thing will have, I am sure, some differences of opinion on this question, whereas the atheists among us will say what? What soul?

 

[citizenzen]

A big question with this is : would a cloned human have a soul?
Or would it be somewhat different from natural humans?
Maybe being no different than livestock?

Livestock?

That's a rather dire prognosis.

I'll bet they're just like people. Exactly like 'em to be precise.

 

[seattlegal]

A big question with this is : would a cloned human have a soul?
Or would it be somewhat different from natural humans?
Maybe being no different than livestock?
People who are on the spiritual side of the fence, who believe in such a thing will have, I am sure, some differences of opinion on this question, whereas the atheists among us will say what? What soul?

Livestock?

That's a rather dire prognosis.

I'll bet they're just like people. Exactly like 'em to be precise.

I would have to agree with citizenzen. Dehumanization of others is often used to rationalize exploitation of others.