Fear in the God Fearing

[iBrian]

For me evolution theory has a lot of shortcomings, the most important of which is the neglection of a creator. Darwin talks about the evolution of some species, and he neglects who created those species..he neglectes who created nature...his theory is incomplete and doesnt answer all questions...

Evolution doesn't address the issue of how life began - it's outside of its remit. Instead it addresses how life develops once arisen.

That's why a lot of people see now conflict between the idea of a creator - or creative force (even if inherent in physical mechanics) - and evolution projects no conflict for their belief.

It only comes into conflict if you believe in literal readings of religious texts.

The tragedy is, Islam used to be a major seat of learning and science in the world - heck, the Qur'an declares that knowledge is a very valuable resource.

And yet nowadays there are demagogues playing the literal fundamentalist card, tapping into a genuine naivety about science, and turning this to support their own personal agendas.

2c.

 

[Avi]

For me evolution theory has a lot of shortcomings, the most important of which is the neglection of a creator. Darwin talks about the evolution of some species, and he neglects who created those species..he neglectes who created nature...his theory is incomplete and doesnt answer all questions...

As for the evolution theory, it has really collapsed. Look at the latest findings of that lemur fossile which was claimed to be the origine of man..It has been founded as it is since the old times..

There are many systems now known which were built by the process of "self-assembly". No creator is required. Because of the physics and chemistry involved, these systems are able to build themselves from elementary constituents. Atoms and interatomic forces explain these assembly processes.

It is true that we do not know how these processes are initiated and how the "information" is brought to the system to allow the self assembly to occur. But this in no way is evidence for a creator. In fact, it provides a strong argument for lack of such an anthropomorphic notion.

 

[Avi]

The tragedy is, Islam used to be a major seat of learning and science in the world - heck, the Qur'an declares that knowledge is a very valuable resource.

In fact many Muslims are still at the forefront of science of engineering today. Many of them are right here, in the US.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Sometimes it is clearly a case of people having no integrity or honour yes.

Well, sometimes doeasnt mean all the time

[/quote] so I will challenge you to name just 1 that has any argument over standard evolutionary theory. Now how kind am I !![/quote]

Evolution theory is not a science in itself by the testimony of so many scientists. It lacks a lot of empirical evidences. Look at what these famous scientists exploited the evolutionary theory, rather than admitting its scientific merit which is free from:

Richard Dawkins, a British biologist, in his book “The Blind Watchmaker” argues that chance and natural selection, aided by immensely long periods of time, are enough to account for all the diverse species of life, including us. Why would we need to invoke the idea of God if chance and natural selection alone can account for all the creativity in the story of life? Before Darwin, we concede, it may have been difficult to find definitive reasons for atheism. The order or patterning in nature, seemed to beg for a supernatural explanation, and so the design argument for God’s existence may have made some sense in those days. But no longer. Evolutionary theory, brought up to date by the discoveries of molecular biology, has demolished the divine designer that most people believed in before the middle of the last century. Evolution for once and for all purged any remaining intellectual respectability for the idea of God.

“Darwinism was enthusiastically adopted and developed on purely materialistic lines by the intellectuals of Atheistic disposition, in the hope that it demolishes the foundations of all religious belief. The origin and evolution of man was now being viewed as resulting from pure chance, making obsolete all spiritual and moral concerns. This provided the perfect excuse to the philosophy of moral relativism and absolute liberalism”.

Chance!! What a scientific fact..

William Paley in his book “Natural Theology” has compared nature to a watch. He said that if you chanced upon a watch lying alone on the ground and then examined its intricate structure you could not help concluding that it had been made by an intelligent designer. It could not be the product of mere chance. And yet, the natural world exhibits much more complex order than any watch., Thus, Paley concluded, there has to be an intelligent designer responsible for nature’s fine arrangement. This designer, of course, could be none other than the Creator God of Biblical religion (and of Islam).

That's the answer of chance...

John Herlihy rightly observes,
“The Darwinian theory of evolution has branched into two distinct entities. On one hand, we have the process of evolution as a genuine empirical process with objective documentation and meaningful findings, amounting to certain evidences of a micro-evolutionary kind. On the other hand, we have evolutionism as a distinctive doctrine resulting from an excess of zeal, not in establishing the facts, but in interpreting their philosophical implications.”

Another proponent of evolutionism says;
“We believe in evolution not because it is science, not because it is revelation, not because it is rational, not because one iota of evidence has ever been presented in its favour, but because we feel it must be true.

Dr. John Haught rightly laments such viewpoints, “Many scientists---- and this point is ignored---- indulge in a conflation of their own. They too fuse science with belief. In the case of many scientists and philosophers today, to be more specific, the conflation consists of commingling evolutionary theory with materialism, a belief which is indeed antithetical to religion. Scientists of the stature of Carl Sagan, Stephen Jay Gould, E.O. Wilson and Richard Dawkins, just to name a few offer the theory of evolution to us snugly wrapped up in the alternative faith of scientific materialism”

source: http://science-islam.net/print_article.php3?id_article=741&lang=en

I do not know how you can have an opinion on it, you have already demonstrated you do not even have a basic understanding of its propositions.

It is sufficient to know that such theory claims that man is made out of pure chance to pull the claim of science from it. Logic says everything has a cause...

But notably you refrain from saying it is not true. Because you cannot.

Of course, it isnt, Tao. I ve been reading your views about Islam a long time ago in other posts, and I "saw" many brothers and sisters here presenting you the falsification of your statements. yet, you insist on reapeating the same story. That's why, I thought you are not so much cocerned with knowing or accepting the correction of your views...

Well I am a father. I would rather burn in hell for eternity than murder my own son. I do not need lessons from such a character.

Peace be upon Abaraham. Of course, you are the loser by not taking him a model. His father put him into fire because he chose to win for his intellect and defied all the authorities. Yet, he kept praying for his father, and asking God to forgive him. Such a character, Tao, is very great that you cant see his greatness because of your limited knowledge and superficial interpretation...

 

[dailogue is the best]

It is true that we do not know how these processes are initiated and how the "information" is brought to the system to allow the self assembly to occur. But this in no way is evidence for a creator. In fact, it provides a strong argument for lack of such an anthropomorphic notion.

That's question, Avi1223...There is a creator, no matter how one tries to escape this fact....We will always face that incompleteness if we submit there is no creator..

God says:


[16:3] He created the heavens and the earth for a specific purpose. He is much too High, far above any idols they set up.

[16:4] He created the human from a tiny drop, then he turns into an ardent opponent.

[16:5] And He created the livestock for you, to provide you with warmth, and many other benefits, as well as food.
[16:6] They also provide you with luxury during your leisure, and when you travel.


[16:7] And they carry your loads to lands that you could not reach without a great hardship. Surely, your Lord is Compassionate, Most Merciful.

[16:8] And (He created) the horses, the mules, and the donkeys for you to ride, and for luxury. Additionally, He creates what you do not know.

[16:9] GOD points out the paths, including the wrong ones. If He willed, He could have guided all of you.

[16:10] He sends down from the sky water for your drink, and to grow trees for your benefit.

[16:11] With it, He grows for you crops, olives, date palms, grapes, and all kinds of fruits. This is (sufficient) proof for people who think.

[16:12] And He commits, in your service, the night and the day, as well as the sun and the moon. Also, the stars are committed by His command. These are (sufficient) proofs for people who understand.

[16:13] And (He created) for you on earth things of various colors. This is a (sufficient) proof for people who take heed.
[16:14] And He committed the sea to serve you; you eat from it tender meat, and extract jewelry which you wear. And you see the ships roaming it for your commercial benefits, as you seek His bounties, that you may be appreciative.


[16:15] And He placed stabilizers (mountains) on earth, lest it tumbles with you, as well as rivers and roads, that you may be guided.

[16:16] And landmarks, as well as the stars; to be used for navigation.

[16:17] Is One who creates like one who does not create? Would you now take heed?

[16:18] If you count GOD's blessings, you cannot possibly encompass them. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[16:19] And GOD knows whatever you conceal and whatever you declare.


[16:20] As for the idols they set up beside GOD, they do not create anything; they themselves were created.

[16:21] They are dead, not alive, and they have no idea how or when they will be resurrected.

[16:22] Your god is one god. As for those who do not believe in the Hereafter, their hearts are denying, and they are arrogant.

[16:23] Absolutely, GOD knows everything they conceal and everything they declare. He does not love those who are arrogant.

[16:24] When they are asked, "What do you think of these revelations from your Lord," they say, "Tales from the past."
[16:25] They will be held responsible for their sins on the Day of Resurrection, all of them, in addition to sins of all those whom they misled by their ignorance. What a miserable load!

 

[Tao_Equus]

When you have even the most basic understanding of anything you try to talk about come back and talk to me. I cannot stand talking to the verbatim speil of an Islamic junk science site any longer. It is sheer and utter tripe.

 

[citizenzen]

I hope dailogue is the best evolves beyond the point of using Comic Sans as a font.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

In fact many Muslims are still at the forefront of science of engineering today. Many of them are right here, in the US.

Yes, and like those of other faiths they have found a way to compartmentalize their thinking. The superstitious fear in one's programming isn't automatically remedied by rational thought. What's required is intellectual honesty. Such is rare, I'm afraid.

Chris

 

[citizenzen]

Yes, and like those of other faiths they have found a way to compartmentalize their thinking. The superstitious fear in one's programming isn't automatically remedied by rational thought. What's required is intellectual honesty. Such is rare, I'm afraid.

So rare, and yet it seems to me the only way to live. Why not live life throwing out the old and accepting the new? It's not a sign of weakness to open oneself to new views.

A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era, received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”

“Like this cup,” Nan-in said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?”

 

[Avi]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower
Yes, and like those of other faiths they have found a way to compartmentalize their thinking. The superstitious fear in one's programming isn't automatically remedied by rational thought. What's required is intellectual honesty. Such is rare, I'm afraid.

Chris, I think that compartmentalization is another way of saying that scientists and those that follow rationality accept inconsistancies in religion. How else could one accept the miracles of the Bible and G-d's anthropomorphism ? On the other hand, doesn't it make sense to try to continually make both the scientific and religious perspectives consistent ? Wouldn't this result in de-compartmentalization ?

 

[Avi]

That's question, Avi1223...There is a creator, no matter how one tries to escape this fact....We will always face that incompleteness if we submit there is no creator..

Dialgoue is the Best, it is interesting to me that several of the scriptural quotes that you present relate to idolatry.

I personally believe that Avraham, who was, of course, the father of all three religions, Islam, Christianity and Judaism, taught some of the most important lessons. And the most powerful one for me was when he smashed the idols in his father's idol shop. In Judaism this story is called Midrash, and it is not part of the Bible (Torah), but is a famous story about Avraham.

In my view creationism vs. evolution is a similar story and creationism is similar to belief in the ancient idols.

The debate about creationism vs. evolution is a highly technical one, and cannot be won by simply quoting scripture. It takes logic and willingness to take a serious look at the evidence.

 

[arthra]

I haven't gotten into this fear issue as yet but my reaction is that "fear" is a very general term and we should consider it a moment..

The first time it's mentioned in the Bible it's the fear of man..not God.

See:

And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

Genesis 9:2

Meaning of the Hebrew word:

fear, reverence, terror
a) fear, terror
b) reverence
c) object of reverence
d) awe-inspiring spectacle or deed

There's an article that has ten different words of meanings for fear in the Qur'an.

See:

Usage of “Fear” in the Qur’an .:Tayyibaat:.

So I don't think it's so easy to discuss or come to any fast conclusions say about fear and monotheistic religions..


I can fear my neighbor's displeasure if I do something ..

I can fear to get a ticket for travelling to fast..

It doesn't have to be fear of a cosmic punishment..

- Art

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Chris, I think that compartmentalization is another way of saying that scientists and those that follow rationality accept inconsistancies in religion. How else could one accept the miracles of the Bible and G-d's anthropomorphism ? On the other hand, doesn't it make sense to try to continually make both the scientific and religious perspectives consistent ? Wouldn't this result in de-compartmentalization ?

Yes, I agree. The real locus of cause-and-effect power is in the invisible inside of nature. In the past this invisible world was thought to be the realm of deities and departed spirits. One searched for ways to ritually placate these entities in order to effect a desirable outcome in the visible world. We have several thousand years of human ideas about the nature of the invisible realm which are, quite naturally, phrased in language which presents these ideas in anthropomorphic terms. By contrast we have only been considering these processes in scientific terms for a mere couple of centuries.

Religion is more than a repository for outdated superstition and ritual. One of the most consistent themes within the ideologies of the monotheistic religions is the pursuit of justice. Justice equally applied regardless of one's class or economic strata. This is what gives Islam, in particular, it's appeal today. That justice may take the form of an extreme frontier justice such as the Taliban metes out, but even that can be an improvement over the endemic corruption of the secular governments that the masses of poor people are forced to live out lives of misery under.

I believe the quote is: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." What we might consider is what, in esoteric context, the "beginning of wisdom" might refer to, and then construct a definition of the "fear of the Lord" which conforms to that.

Chris

 

[dailogue is the best]

I hope dailogue is the best evolves beyond the point of using Comic Sans as a font.

Sorry, citizenzen, but I am not an evolutionist...hhhhhhh

 

[dailogue is the best]

Dialgoue is the Best, it is interesting to me that several of the scriptural quotes that you present relate to idolatry.

Well, I see the opposite, Avi...I will show you how..

I personally believe that Avraham, who was, of course, the father of all three religions, Islam, Christianity and Judaism, taught some of the most important lessons. And the most powerful one for me was when he smashed the idols in his father's idol shop. In Judaism this story is called Midrash, and it is not part of the Bible (Torah), but is a famous story about Avraham.

The story exists in the Quran. I agree with you that what Abraham peace be upon him did with the idols is the most important lesson that God wants us to learn: doubt is the beggining of the way, the use of mind, the listening to the voice of innate nature, the rebellion against false social doctrines, and the victory to one's beliefs.

Abraham peace be upon him was a man of intellect. He refused to follow the tide, and worship the idols. He was wondering: who created him, and more than that he was strike about the amazing creation of heaven and earth. That's why, he was looking for a god that transcends earth and its limitation. He thus looked at the heaven.

[6:76] When the night fell, he saw a shining planet. "Maybe this is my Lord," he said. When it disappeared, he said, "I do not like (gods) that disappear."
[6:77] When he saw the moon rising, he said, "Maybe this is my Lord!" When it disappeared, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will be with the strayers." [6:78] When he saw the sun rising, he said, "This must be my Lord. This is the biggest." But when it set, he said, "O my people, I denounce your idolatry.
[6:79] "I have devoted myself absolutely to the One who initiated the heavens and the earth; I will never be an idol worshiper."

Through meditating on heaven, Abraham peace be upon him realized that God transcends both heaven and earth, that God is not a material being..

In my view creationism vs. evolution is a similar story and creationism is similar to belief in the ancient idols.

That's why, Avi, I find that evolution is what Abraham peace be upon him really smashed becasue it is a material concept, it takes the form of idols..

The debate about creationism vs. evolution is a highly technical one, and cannot be won by simply quoting scripture. It takes logic and willingness to take a serious look at the evidence.

Well, Avi, I wonder if you have never read "Atlas of creation". It is a book by Harun Yahya. Through this book, Hraun yahya showed the deception and the scienceless of evolution. Harun yahya supported his book with pictures of the fossils and their counterparts of nowaydays. Harun yahya showed that there was no evolution at all. The species are still the same as they were millions years before.

Here is the full book. You can download it for deep reading:
ATLAS OF CREATION - Harun Yahya

 

[dailogue is the best]

I haven't gotten into this fear issue as yet but my reaction is that "fear" is a very general term and we should consider it a moment..

The first time it's mentioned in the Bible it's the fear of man..not God.

See:

And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

Genesis 9:2

Meaning of the Hebrew word:

fear, reverence, terror
a) fear, terror
b) reverence
c) object of reverence
d) awe-inspiring spectacle or deed

There's an article that has ten different words of meanings for fear in the Qur'an.

See:

Usage of “Fear” in the Qur’an .:Tayyibaat:.

So I don't think it's so easy to discuss or come to any fast conclusions say about fear and monotheistic religions..


I can fear my neighbor's displeasure if I do something ..

I can fear to get a ticket for travelling to fast..

It doesn't have to be fear of a cosmic punishment..

- Art

Thank you for your contribution, Art. It is really shedding more light on the subject.

Atheists think that theists are poor neurotic people worship, do good, avoid the unpleasant things out of only fear of a power that exist only in their imagination...

God is love, only is love. A true believer doesnt fear God because God is revengul. No, God is above and higher than this. He can make us fully obedient if He wants in a glimpse of eye. Yet, He wants us to come to Him willingly, to serve Him willingly...


I believe that God educates us and that's for our benefit, not His. A man once came to a clothes store to buy a piece of cloth. The owner the store despised the man, and treated him badly, and called him names. The owner of the store said that he stayed three months after this no one came to buy his goods. This story is a real one, and it is sample of many taking places everyday.

I dont know why we should be afraid of God in this sense?! A true believer thanks God for that, becasue he knows that God educates him, and promotes by him to Him. The loss of products is nothing in comparison to the lesson this person has learnt.

For me, the most thing a believer should be afraid of is the loss of connection with God, the emptiness that invades heart once you mistreat His creation or you infringe His rules, the hell that fires in one's heart..The most fearful thing is to lose connection with God, to loss Hudur, presence of heart with Him..that period of education involves depression and sadness, which is nothing but the loss of presence of heart and its connection with God...

fear in disconnecting/losing the swetness of connection with the beloved..

 

[Dream]

Perhaps the nicest thing is that Abraham died old and full of years. The 'Full of years' part indicates satisfaction, like someone who goes to bed knowing they've had a productive day. That is really the only way to die right.

 

[citizenzen]

Atheists think that theists are poor neurotic people worship, do good, avoid the unpleasant things out of only fear of a power that exist only in their imagination...

You have fallen into common a debate fallacy where you've attempted to describe how others think, when we really should stick to talking about how we think and let others speak for themselves.

This atheist thinks that every aspect of human nature can be found in the any group, provided a generous enough population. Each religious group or non-religious group is filled with a rainbow of fruity flavors. None of them can be reduced to a simple stereotype.

 

[Avi]

The story exists in the Quran. I agree with you that what Abraham peace be upon him did with the idols is the most important lesson that God wants us to learn:

DIB, I am glad that we agree on the importance of Avraham's smashing of idols.

That's why, Avi, I find that evolution is what Abraham peace be upon him really smashed becasue it is a material concept, it takes the form of idols..

I do not follow your logic here Dialogue. I never said that Avraham advocated for evolution over creationism. I said that Avraham smashed idols. And I said that I believe that creationism is an idol.

How did you come to Avraham smashed evolution

Well, Avi, I wonder if you have never read "Atlas of creation". It is a book by Harun Yahya.

Dialogue, it seems to me that you are sincere in trying to understand this argument. The website that you linked to has some citations from legitimate sources and there is detailed description of the ideas presented, which support creationism, of course.

My initial impression of this website is that there is an agenda to prove creationism and all of their description is in support of this conclusion which has already been reached.

This is not the way that real learning is achieved. One must be very intellectually honest to learn.

Here are a few quotes from Wiki about Adnan Oktar (Harun Yahya) whose website you are quoting:

He is against Zionism and Freemasonry and sees them as very interrelated movements, though he denounces anti-Semitism[4] and terrorism[5], which he says is a product of Darwinism, not religious fanaticism.[6] Oktar had defended his views by litigation; he is responsible for the blocking of numerous, high-profile Web sites in Turkey.

When one studies a scientific subject, evolution, it must be done using a scientific approach. The person that you quote has a political agenda which underlies his perspective. I hope you will take a close look at his activities before you quote him as a reliable source for creationism.

Oktar runs two organizations, including the Milli Değerleri Koruma Vakfı (Foundation to Protect National Values) which focuses on "moral issues" and the Science Research Foundation (Bilim Araştırma Vakfı, or BAV), which is centered around promoting creationism.[7] Oktar founded the Science Research Foundation "to [establish]...peace, tranquility and love,"[8] though the BAV is described in the media as "a secretive Islamic sect"[9] or a "cult-like organization, that jealously guards the secrets of its considerable wealth."[10] In 2008, he was sentenced by a Turkish court to three years in prison for "creating an illegal organization for personal gain."[11]

By the way, I like your name, Dialogue is the Best, I agree this is better than throwing bombs !!

Ref: Adnan Oktar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Tao_Equus]

Yes, I agree. The real locus of cause-and-effect power is in the invisible inside of nature. In the past this invisible world was thought to be the realm of deities and departed spirits. One searched for ways to ritually placate these entities in order to effect a desirable outcome in the visible world. We have several thousand years of human ideas about the nature of the invisible realm which are, quite naturally, phrased in language which presents these ideas in anthropomorphic terms. By contrast we have only been considering these processes in scientific terms for a mere couple of centuries.

I think you hit on something important here. Something obvious to the atheist but wrapped in a superstitious confusion for those stuck fast in the mire of heady and deep seated religious paradigms. Yet under any legal system ignorance is no excuse under the law. And if you err in ignorance you can only expect to be held to account. Yet as we see here DIB is not only ignorant of even the basics but purposefully embraces that ignorance as though it were righteous to remain ignorant. She makes idols of snippets of poor science propagated by a few fringe loonies and ignores the findings of the 100s of 1000s of biologists and evolutionary scientists who can demonstrate with absolute clarity that evolution is real. She says her god wants her to know the truth but she has no intention of looking for it. Instead she hangs on every word of every crazy that panders to her desire to prove the infallibility of her indoctro/embraced beliefs. It becaomes a homage to her ego in the infallibility of her thinking, her thoughts themselves become the idol. Her ignorance feeds on itself in a self perpetuating loop. Atheism has only had a couple of centuries where its thinking did not invite ostacisation or execution. But understanding evolution and embracing atheism has a 'fitness' that cannot be denied. Truth and understanding of how things really work infers a power and creates a force that I hope is now unstoppable. As implied in Gould's punctuated equilibrium the cat is out of the bag, it cannot be put back. It will either be killed or rise swiftly to dominate.

Religion is more than a repository for outdated superstition and ritual. One of the most consistent themes within the ideologies of the monotheistic religions is the pursuit of justice. Justice equally applied regardless of one's class or economic strata. This is what gives Islam, in particular, it's appeal today. That justice may take the form of an extreme frontier justice such as the Taliban metes out, but even that can be an improvement over the endemic corruption of the secular governments that the masses of poor people are forced to live out lives of misery under.

Yeh, religions have always been ready to exploit the 'us and them' aspect of social divisions. Yet no matter how flawed and rotten western profit orientated systems may be I could never ever agree that they were improved upon by the masogynistic totalitairianism of the Taliban.