Fear in the God Fearing

[dailogue is the best]

I do not follow your logic here Dialogue. I never said that Avraham advocated for evolution over creationism. I said that Avraham smashed idols. And I said that I believe that creationism is an idol.

Well, Avi, I understood from your words that as Abraham peace be upon him smashed idols, we should also smashed creationism because it is an idol too, according to your view.

How did you come to Avraham smashed evolution

Well, Avi, I am gonna explain to you how I see the matter. Evolution is a materialistic theory which believed only on what is seen, and insists on explaining everything materialistically. In this, evolution is similar to idols. material/ material. Idol can be an idea according to the wikipedia:

Idolatry

is usually defined as worship of any cult image, idea, or object, as opposed to the worship of a monotheistic God.

Source: Idolatry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Evolution sees that there is no creator. Hence, evolutionists worship this idea. To worship, Avi, simply means to serve, or giving wowth to something as the wikipedia says:

Worship literally means "worth-ship". Giving worth to something.[1] In its older sense in English of worthiness or respect ..

.

source: Worship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thus, evolutionists worship an idol, an idea.

When I said that Abraham peace be upon him smashed evolution by smashing idols, I simply meant that he smashed that idol which took the form of an idea...he smashed that idol which stands as barrier of making creatures connect their creators, and achieve the true lasting happinness...he smahed that minds which try to minimize God's representive into a pure material being...he smashed that theory which closes the windows of spirit in man to free himself from the boundaries and the limitation of dust to the unlimitness of spirit and to the Divine presence of God...to the lasting uplifting light..

That's why evolution is an idol, Avi...

My initial impression of this website is that there is an agenda to prove creationism and all of their description is in support of this conclusion which has already been reached.

Do you want to say that Harun Yahya has other agenda than that of spreading the truth? What if has this agenda? Harun Yahya is a true believer, and he stands by his belief, and this is his right as it is the right of everyone in the world.

I think we havent the right to judge his belief, but to judge his findings. Are his scientific findings farbricated by him or true? Is there anything missing in his arguments? I think that what really matters. Harun Yahya has challenged all the evolutionists, and has lefted them nothing to say as his book is supported by pictures and detailed explanation. That what we should judge.

Atlas of creation has really put evolutionists in an embarrassing situation all over the world:
Comments on Atlas of Creation.com

This is not the way that real learning is achieved. One must be very intellectually honest to learn.

Well, Avi, have you seen anything in the book which contrast intellect?

No one is ever never baised. Everyone has beliefs of different knids: religious, political, social, economic,... You cant stand baised: either you are with the right or the wrong. There is no middle. Plus, the world of ideas doesnt stand void. It is for sure full of something, either without you paying attention to that. We are all experiencing many different ideas..travelling from this to this..testing this and this...doubting this and this till we reside in what our hearts and minds really relax to..

When Marx adopted evolutionism, he didnt adopted for its scientific proof. Not at all. He adopted because it was in the service of his ideas."

...Friedrich Engel wrote to his comrade Karl Marx in 1859: Incidentally Darwin, whom I am just reading, is absolutely splendid. One bastion of theology was still unbleached. Now it has fallen. Marx replied a month later: “ I have read Darwin’s book during the last four weeks. Although set out in the clumsy English style, this is the book that will provide the natural history basis for our work”.

Source: [Science & Religion in Islam]

By the way, I like your name, Dialogue is the Best, I agree this is better than throwing bombs !!

Thank you, Avi.

Dailogue is the best Vs throwing bombs: each one for the right situation

The first is for living: God says: [16:125] You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner.

The second one for those who try to break my life. God says:

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable. [60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

 

[nativeastral]

Thank you, Avi.

Dailogue is the best Vs throwing bombs: each one for the right situation

The first is for living: God says: [16:125] You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner.

The second one for those who try to break my life. God says:

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

maybe we should send this to obama before he heads off to egypt

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

religions have always been ready to exploit the 'us and them' aspect of social divisions. Yet no matter how flawed and rotten western profit orientated systems may be I could never ever agree that they were improved upon by the masogynistic totalitairianism of the Taliban.

I was thinking more of someplace like Somalia where law and order is utterly lacking. But if you look at the ME in general, organized religion is the only thing strong enough to stand up to the despotic regimes. Sure the mullahs and so forth have their own political agenda so it's a mixed bag, but perhaps you see my point.

Chris

 

[Avi]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best
Thank you, Avi.

Dailogue is the best Vs throwing bombs: each one for the right situation

The first is for living: God says: [16:125] You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner.

The second one for those who try to break my life. God says:

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

maybe we should send this to obama before he heads off to egypt

Right, along with - Have a nice day !

 

[shawn]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the bestQuote:
Idolatry
Quote:
is usually defined asworship of any cult image, idea, or object, as opposed to the worship of a monotheistic God.


Source: Idolatry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Evolution sees that there is no creator. Hence, evolutionists worship this idea. To worship, Avi, simply means to serve, or giving wowth to something as the wikipedia says: Quote:
Worship literally means "worth-ship". Giving worth to something.[1] In its older sense in English of worthiness or respect ..
.

I am not an atheist, but this bit caught my attention as the original meaning of the word worship is "to work for".

Another point is that those who worship a god, any G-d are in fact also committing idolatry according to your definition, as all we have is this idea that there is a G*d as we have no God in our midst, nor pillar of fire, nor avatar.
All we have are ancients texts which talk about such beings as God(s) and in fact the atheists could not exist if we had more than just an idea of God.
So all religions are idolatry.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Thus, evolutionists worship an idol, an idea.

You harp on about how clever some Muslim apologetic idiot is in writing his infallible critique on evolution but that idol of his hand that you worship with utter ignorance is one of your many false idols. You are simply in no position to say whether or not his work is of any value at all as you have demonstrated to everyone here already that you do not even have a child's understanding of what evolutionary theory consists of. You are like a woman blind since birth telling everybody how good a picture the Mona Lisa is. It is crass, absurd, meaningless and ultimately, pathetic. You have no interest in truth at all. The only thing you value is the egotistical supremacy of your own thinking to yourself. You have made an idol of your own thoughts.

Dailogue is the best Vs throwing bombs: each one for the right situation

I am an enemy of Islam. I despise it. Loathe it. I Wish it could be eradicated from human conciousness. But I wish no Muslim any harm because they are muslim. Yet by your statement, and that absurd verse you use to justify it, you believe me a mortal enemy. You think there can be justification for those like me who see Islam as the cancer it is to receive, when your verbal diarrhoea is exposed in all its frailties, bombs instead. I have long seen the double standard in you dialogue here. You exemplify it in this. With a big like it is a righteous. How weak you and your ego are that they have to fantasise about such things.

 

[Tao_Equus]

I was thinking more of someplace like Somalia where law and order is utterly lacking. But if you look at the ME in general, organized religion is the only thing strong enough to stand up to the despotic regimes. Sure the mullahs and so forth have their own political agenda so it's a mixed bag, but perhaps you see my point.

Chris

I do get the point you are trying to make but again in Somalia it is Islam that is largely responsible for the anarchy that persists there. In theory Islam may be strong enough to stand up against despotism, as we saw with the Islamic Revolution in Iran, but almost universally the actual fact is that the Imams and Mufti's are a part of the machinery of state. Propagandists that support and justify the feudal servitude that persists across the Muslim world.

 

[Avi]

Dialogue is the Best, I could refute your arguments point by point, but it would be of no use, because you have already reached your conclusion and therefore would disregard my comments.

So I will try to bring you to what I feel is the larger issue. Evolution and the development of humans is a highly complex issue. It must be studied within the domain of scientists and not politicians and religious leaders. This is not to say that everyone should not try to understand. What I am saying is that our sources must be accomplished scientists not amateurs.

The main source that you site is a religious leader and politician. So I would like to ask you to please provide another source which supports your belief about creationism. Please try to find a source with a strong scientific foundation. There are many excellent Muslim scientists and engineers in the world, so this should be easy, right ?

You seem like a very nice person to me. You have responded to my comments very civilly and politely. So I am glad to discuss this further with you. But will you admit that the study of the development of humans is a scientific endeavor and must therefore be supported by scientific evidence ?

 

[iBrian]

Evolution sees that there is no creator. Hence, evolutionists worship this idea.

This is quite incorrect and nothing of the sort occurs.

Evolution works as a method for explaining our observations of the world, and is neither worshipped nor exclusive of spiritual belief as any other such scientific theory.

No part of science invokes the need for a Creator, so if you dismiss evolution, you have to dismiss the whole sphere of sciences.

Are his scientific findings farbricated by him or true? Is there anything missing in his arguments? I think that what really matters.

The anti-evolutionary claims really do not stand up to scientific scrutiny. The only people who subscribe to such ideas have faith that evolution is wrong, but such objections are not at all supported by science.

 

[lunamoth]

But understanding evolution and embracing atheism has a 'fitness' that cannot be denied.

Hi Tao,

But a person can understand and accept evolution without embracing atheism, too.

luna

 

[dailogue is the best]

Another point is that those who worship a god, any G-d are in fact also committing idolatry according to your definition, as all we have is this idea that there is a G*d as we have no God in our midst, nor pillar of fire, nor avatar.

All we have are ancients texts which talk about such beings as God(s) and in fact the atheists could not exist if we had more than just an idea of God.
So all religions are idolatry.

Hello, Shawn..
I think you missed completing the definition of wikipedia to idolatry which says that idolatry is the worship of image, idea, object...as opposed to worshipping God. They cant be both idolatry...There is an origin, and there is an imposter. In religion, God is the origin, the creator. Those who tries to take His position are idols, be it image, idea, person, object....Look below to what Abraham peace be upon him knew that only God can provide, while no other direction can ever provide

In other words, shawn, idolatry simply means a false notion of God… Anything that tries to take the place of God is an idol. Even, shawn, when we submit to our lusts and desires blindly, we then make our lusts and desires idols…when we submit to others' opinions blindly, we make them idols…we worship them, while the only one that should be worshipped is God. It is the only one we should serve, and by serving Him alone, we become completely free…free from ego' derives, …free from satan's whispers…free from others' pressures and opinions…we submit to only one direction: God

Abraham peace be upon him was a man of deep thinking and meditation. His society was worshipping idols. Abraham peace be upon him became sick with the doubt arising within him as he saw these idols a pure motionless material. Abraham peace be upon him was looking around, and he saw that food were provided for human with differents kinds, he saw water giving life to all creatures, he saw people ragain health after being ill, he saw prayers answered which meant for him that there was a presence of a near, always present power. Abraham's doubt ended up by him to God, the hearer, the gifter, the healer, the bountiful, the forgiver:

[26:70] He said to his father and his people, "What is this you are worshipping?"
[26:71] They said, "We worship statues; we are totally devoted to them."

[26:72] He said, "Can they hear you when you implore?
[26:73] "Can they benefit you, or harm you?"
[26:74] They said, "No; but we found our parents doing this."
[26:75] He said, "Do you see these idols that you worship.
[26:76] "You and your ancestors.
[26:77] "I am against them, for I am devoted only to the Lord of the universe.
[26:78] "The One who created me, and guided me.
[26:79] "The One who feeds me and waters me.
[26:80] "And when I get sick, He heals me.
[26:81] "The One who puts me to death, then brings me back to life.

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[dailogue is the best]

maybe we should send this to obama before he heads off to egypt

It is a nice idea, nativeastral..not so that he wouldnt come to Egypt. He is very welcomed, but just to know that others also have the right to live with dignity...

But, alas, most of the Arabic regimes dont represent their masses...they dont care a lot about their nation's dignity. That's another sad topic, by the way..

Obama is welcomed, and all humans are welcomed to live happily and with dignity...They are God's creatures, and NO ONE has the right to destroy God's creation, be it human, animal, nature...

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Tao,

But a person can understand and accept evolution without embracing atheism, too.

luna

Absolutely. we often need a half-way house

 

[dailogue is the best]

You harp on about how clever some Muslim apologetic idiot is in writing his infallible critique on evolution but that idol of his hand that you worship with utter ignorance is one of your many false idols. You are simply in no position to say whether or not his work is of any value at all as you have demonstrated to everyone here already that you do not even have a child's understanding of what evolutionary theory consists of. You are like a woman blind since birth telling everybody how good a picture the Mona Lisa is. It is crass, absurd, meaningless and ultimately, pathetic. You have no interest in truth at all. The only thing you value is the egotistical supremacy of your own thinking to yourself. You have made an idol of your own thoughts.

Well, Tao, thank you for all. May be I am not as good as you in science. But, I am really interested, and if I had found evolution says something deeply profound and accurated, I would have stopped discussing you.

What Harun Yhaya comes to cant be denied, Tao. Harun provided his book with fossils and their nowadays counterparts, which simply means that those creatures are the same since the creation. Those creatuters, Tao, had been created, and not evolved. And here is the meuseum for those fossils: ::: FOSSIL-MUSEUM.com :::

But, if you want to turn them blind eyes, then you are free, Tao.

I saw that thread of yours wherein you said that beavers are back to Sctoland after 3oo years of extinction: http://www.interfaith.org/forum/io-exclusive-11537.html....

I wondered you didnt wonder: how come this beaver is back? who can make this beaver back to life? wasnt that beaver "dead", and now it is back? couldnt that power who make that beaver back, make us also back after death?

I really wonder how some people are attracted to the gift, and they forget the gifter, attracted to the bounty, and they forget the bountiful, attrated to the creatures, and they forget the creator?

I am an enemy of Islam. I despise it. Loathe it. I Wish it could be eradicated from human conciousness. But I wish no Muslim any harm because they are muslim. Yet by your statement, and that absurd verse you use to justify it, you believe me a mortal enemy. You think there can be justification for those like me who see Islam as the cancer it is to receive, when your verbal diarrhoea is exposed in all its frailties, bombs instead. I have long seen the double standard in you dialogue here. You exemplify it in this. With a big like it is a righteous. How weak you and your ego are that they have to fantasise about such things.

No problem, Tao. I attribute your dislike and hatred of Islam to ignorance. The prophet Muhemmed peace be upon him tasted different and very hard pains and hardships from his tribe as he was preaching Islam. Even though, he prayed for them:" oh, God, forgive my tribe because they dont know".

I believe in my religion, Tao. It is a religion of peace, love and justice. It could bring you peace that you have never experienced, Tao. Who knows? What I know is that many factors work together to spread a false picture about my religion, and make others hold that bad image about my religion...

Concerning "throwing bombs", my religion isnt escapist, Tao. My religion asserts on the right of everyone to live with dignity.If someone wants to hurts me, I have the right to defend myself. God Himself honoured humans with differents bounties, then how can anyone dare to steal their dignity. God says: "[17:70] We have honored the children of Adam, and provided them with rides on land and in the sea. We provided for them good provisions, and we gave them greater advantages than many of our creatures."

Human is God's building, and cursed are those who destroy His building...

The matter of throwing bombs, by which I simply means self defense, is everyone's right.

By the way, Tao, you misread the scriptures which said that it is the dislike of Islam that it is the reason of self defense, but rather it when others want to expel you out from your home, and take your lands, properties and dignity.

Islam comes to teach justice, no matter what your religion, sex, colour, language, status is. I have the right to live with dignity as anyone in the world has. That's why, I would stand with an oppressed even if he is not of my religion, and I would stand against an oppressor even if he is of my religion. Once a Muslim becomes an oppressor, he is no longer practising the teaching of Islam. The prophet Muhammed peace be upon him said: "The Muslim is one from whose tongue and hand other people are safe."

 

[citizenzen]

But, if you want to turn them blind eyes, then you are free, Tao.

Can we please stop calling each other "blind" merely because we see things differently?

 

[nativeastral]

It is a nice idea, nativeastral..not so that he wouldnt come to Egypt. He is very welcomed, but just to know that others also have the right to live with dignity...

But, alas, most of the Arabic regimes dont represent their masses...they dont care a lot about their nation's dignity. That's another sad topic, by the way..

Obama is welcomed, and all humans are welcomed to live happily and with dignity...They are God's creatures, and NO ONE has the right to destroy God's creation, be it human, animal, nature...

hey l know we all knock the guys in power, but if islam is ummah is both politics/religion/society why are the regimes so hard on their peoples if justice and peace is paramount?

l thought obama is going to egypt in june sometime; will it all be rhetoric or do you think some headway will emerge peaceably? btw as it is all about economics l am disillusioned about 'proper' outcomes anyways

 

[citizenzen]

hey l know we all knock the guys in power, but if islam is ummah is both politics/religion/society why are the regimes so hard on their peoples if justice and peace is paramount?

I might say something like that myself... except I live in the good old U.S.A. where we have the highest documented incarceration rate, and total documented prison population in the world... so I'd hesitate to say anything about how other nations treat their citizens.

Also, as a resident of California, a state buried up to it's eyeballs in debt, it's dismaying to see that children, the poor and those suffering from health problems will bear the brunt of massive government cuts intended to reduce the states debt... so again... nothing to brag about here, at least.

 

[lunamoth]

Absolutely. we often need a half-way house

luna

 

[Tao_Equus]

Well, Tao, thank you for all. May be I am not as good as you in science. But, I am really interested, and if I had found evolution says something deeply profound and accurated, I would have stopped discussing you.

I am no scientist but I have worked with and have thus a deep working knowledge of evolution. There is nothing alive that cannot be demonstrated to have evolved to be the way it is. And there are many things that are not alive that can also be seen to evolve in a predictable way given the right conditions. Evolution is fact. Not theory. The theory describes the meat and bones of Darwins ideas, the parts. The whole, the statement that "evolution is fact", is just that, rock solid fact.
Now if you were really interested in the truth you would not only read the idiots like Harun or the crackpots of the fossil museum but solid peer reviewed science too. But you do not. Indeed as I have already stated, and state again in the dim hope you might actually hear it, you have demonstrated very clearly that you do not even have a basic understanding of what evolution theory states. Until such times that you do, if ever, your thinking will remain naive and full of basic errors that are visible to all.
I have a double advantage over you here. I know what you believe as well, I would argue even better, than you yourself do. I have looked at the creationist arguments in detail, understood the premises and conclusions and rejected them as nonsense. I have looked at both sides not as someone trying to prove or disprove the existence of a creator but as someone examining the observational data. Creationists have one agenda and one agenda alone, to fit the data to their religious views. An evolutionary scientists makes an observation and tries to explain it using empirical observational testing. He/she may try out 100s of theories before finding one that explains all the observations and is content to be wrong many times for the ultimate aim of demonstrating a single fact. There are now so many of these single facts in the field of evolutionary science that to deny them, and the holistic merit of the theory itself, is akin to denying the existence of water molecules and oceans. But if you continue to make idols of idiots you will never know that. Sadly, it is your loss, not mine. Evolution theory is very beautiful and, as Luna stated, there are very many believers that see evolution as fact and their holy books as non-literal when it comes to explaining the natural world. It is your bad luck to have been born in a geographical region where feudal lords still demand literalism from cradle to grave. Stockholm syndrome does not just affect high profile hostages it effects whole populations held tied fast to politico-religious paradigms.
Evolution as theory and fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Love and Stockholm Syndrome: The Mystery of Loving an Abuser

I wondered you didn't wonder: how come this beaver is back? who can make this beaver back to life? wasn't that beaver "dead", and now it is back? couldn't that power who make that beaver back, make us also back after death?

Living human beings trapped them in Norway, brought them to Scotland and released them. I guarantee the was no divine intercession.

No problem, Tao. I attribute your dislike and hatred of Islam to ignorance.

It is not ignorance, it is the opposite, it is because I am educated in the facts surrounding the birth, evolution and contemporary state of Islam. I use such strong words against Islam because I despise how it poisons the human intellect and the reasons it seeks to do so. I see Islam as a disease and it pains me to see so many people suffering. It is my compassion and love of all people that drives my antipathy.

 

[dailogue is the best]

I am no scientist but I have worked with and have thus a deep working knowledge of evolution. There is nothing alive that cannot be demonstrated to have evolved to be the way it is. And there are many things that are not alive that can also be seen to evolve in a predictable way given the right conditions. Evolution is fact. Not theory. The theory describes the meat and bones of Darwins ideas, the parts. The whole, the statement that "evolution is fact", is just that, rock solid fact.
Now if you were really interested in the truth you would not only read the idiots like Harun or the crackpots of the fossil museum but solid peer reviewed science too. But you do not. Indeed as I have already stated, and state again in the dim hope you might actually hear it, you have demonstrated very clearly that you do not even have a basic understanding of what evolution theory states. Until such times that you do, if ever, your thinking will remain naive and full of basic errors that are visible to all.
I have a double advantage over you here. I know what you believe as well, I would argue even better, than you yourself do. I have looked at the creationist arguments in detail, understood the premises and conclusions and rejected them as nonsense. I have looked at both sides not as someone trying to prove or disprove the existence of a creator but as someone examining the observational data. Creationists have one agenda and one agenda alone, to fit the data to their religious views. An evolutionary scientists makes an observation and tries to explain it using empirical observational testing. He/she may try out 100s of theories before finding one that explains all the observations and is content to be wrong many times for the ultimate aim of demonstrating a single fact. There are now so many of these single facts in the field of evolutionary science that to deny them, and the holistic merit of the theory itself, is akin to denying the existence of water molecules and oceans. But if you continue to make idols of idiots you will never know that. Sadly, it is your loss, not mine. Evolution theory is very beautiful and, as Luna stated, there are very many believers that see evolution as fact and their holy books as non-literal when it comes to explaining the natural world. It is your bad luck to have been born in a geographical region where feudal lords still demand literalism from cradle to grave. Stockholm syndrome does not just affect high profile hostages it effects whole populations held tied fast to politico-religious paradigms.
Evolution as theory and fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Love and Stockholm Syndrome: The Mystery of Loving an Abuser

Well, the debate between creationists and evolutionists will last forever as both parts have their own beliefs. Evolution has nothing to say about the first creation. Hence, to say that the world is made and not created is a non-scientific proved argument. Creationism, on the other hand, which claims the intervention of a supernatural power, couldnt present a scientific proof of this...

That's why, the debate between the two will be lasting. One is purley materialsitc, and the other involves spirituality...And everyone inclines to the most part he/she believes in: material or spirit...

Living human beings trapped them in Norway, brought them to Scotland and released them. I guarantee the was no divine intercession.

I embody the other part: I guarantee the presence of a divine power..

It is not ignorance, it is the opposite, it is because I am educated in the facts surrounding the birth, evolution and contemporary state of Islam. I use such strong words against Islam because I despise how it poisons the human intellect and the reasons it seeks to do so. I see Islam as a disease and it pains me to see so many people suffering. It is my compassion and love of all people that drives my antipathy.

Then, Tao, your ignorance is a complex one because you are ignorant, and you dont know that you are ignorant. And the best way for others to deal with such ignorance is to ignore it.