Ask the People of the Book?

but you haven't done this research at all. you've just reiterated what you said at the beginning of this post. i've already rebutted it in my two previous responses. there is no new information here, so you are still speaking from ignorance and, it would appear, prejudice.

once again, go away and learn something about judaism before spouting further stupid, ill-informed nonsense.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
bananabrian,

in my opinion, the Quran confirms the Talmud....this is based on this verse:

5:32 Because of this did We ordain unto the children of Israel that if anyone slays a human being-unless it be [in punishment] for murder or for spreading corruption on earth-it shall be as though he had slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind

the key word here is "ordain" ..
 
(Sura 10:94) (Y. Ali) If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

(Sura 10:94) (Asad) AND SO, [O man,] if thou art in doubt about [the truth of] what We have [now] bestowed upon thee from on high, [115] ask those who read the divine writ [revealed] before thy time: [116] [and thou wilt find that,] surely, the truth has now come unto thee from thy Sustainer. Be not, then, among the doubters -

(Sura 10:94) (Picktall) And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers

This verse seems to be saying that if one is in doubt about the Quran, then one should ask the People of the Book, i.e. Bible. Well if the Bible contains the truth, why are Muslims so quick to shy away from it?

Hi to all

It is one of the Principles in islam to believe in prophets and heavenly books ,, like bible, but unfortunately, these books have been distorted by those who came after hundreds of years of the prophets time.

Do you hear aboutthe Qumran collection of the Dead Sea Scrolls??


tDSSStudyEdition.jpg

REVELATION: The Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition


see this link about the same Subject

The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the Qur'an:http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=14190



best wishes
 
but unfortunately, these books have been distorted by those who came after hundreds of years of the prophets time.


Okay... statements like these are clearly inflammatory and provocative.

I mean, you don't see Christians here going around yelling "Damn you Jews, you killed Christ!!!"

You guys should realize that statements like this one above, are actually even more offensive.
 
bananabrian,

in my opinion, the Quran confirms the Talmud....this is based on this verse:

Also, the legends and sayings that are shared between the Quran and Mishnah. Queen of Sheba and the glass floor, Honi sleeping for a number of years, etc.

The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the Qur'an:

The 'Muhammed is the true Messiah' argument has never set right with me. Maybe I'm just phobic of Ahmadiyyas.
 
people have been aware of the dead sea scrolls for quite some time and there is no cause for triumphalism to be found there. the qumran sect had some very odd beliefs and did not end up as part of normative judaism, they were known to be in possession of non-canonical books and there is absolutely no reason they themselves couldn't have changed texts if you believe any group (including jews) are likely to have done so. perhaps it is texts like these that are referred to as the ones from the "lying pen of the scribes" in jeremiah 8, that were expunged from the main canon but survived on in heretical sects. either way, there is no case whatsoever for saying "oh, these are the true texts, which (rather conveniently) suit my supercessionist beliefs".

tchah!

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
i hope you will understand that this slander, convenient and pat as many muslims seem to believe it to be, is in fact the precise opposite; a sword that you are picking up by the blade that will hurt you as well, you need to understand why that is. it makes me sad when muslims smugly drop this into conversation without understanding the implications for their own beliefs.

Blame the Internet. What is worse than the horror of knowing what people are thinking on the other side of the world, however erroneous? It is like being stabbed in the heart a hundred times even though you're a hundred thousand kilometres away!

bananabrain, see this? I'm pointing a gun at the phone! Bang! Sorry mate, you're dead.

Many biblical scholars admit that Bible has undergone a lot of 'transformations.' Without me typing up a book here, you can research it yourself.

Well, at least they are honest. It is, however, argued that the differences in manuscripts are not significant enough to imply changes in meaning.

New Testament, even without the Holy Qur'an stating that the Bible (meaning OT and NT together) is corrupted to some degree, is a contradiction in itself as compared to the Old Testament the way it is (the biggest contraversy being the concept of trinity).

The Trinity is not even mentioned in the New Testament. Many Christian churches simply accept the idea of the Trinity. They didn't change the texts to prove that there was a Trinity. Instead, they found verses to argue that there was one and this happened a very long time ago in the third and fourth centuries. The decision to make the doctrine of the Trinity official didn't arise out of alterations to the sacred Christian texts. No, it happened without them.

It is very important if you want an accurate understanding of Christianity and if you are a Muslim thinking that the Christian texts were altered to support the doctrine of the Trinity, to understand that this never happened. If it did, why are there so many divisions in Christian communities around the world over the correctness of the concept of the Trinity? All of these communities use the same text. You would think that if they altered the text that everyone would agree.

But they don't, with the reason being that most Christian communities around the world use a text that doesn't even mention the Trinity. We simply have some of them accepting it as official doctrine.

If the concept of the Trinity is wrong, the least you could say is that the official doctrine is wrong. Official doctrine comes from an interpretation that has become collectively established in a particular community. The least you could say then is that Christian teachings have become corrupted. But considering that the texts weren't even altered to support it, it would be a gross misunderstanding to assert that the texts were corrupted just because a large number of Christians believe in the Trinity.

But whether it's the accusations of corrupted texts or Jews rejecting a true Messiah, there is something about all these "fault-finding incidents" that really makes me uncomfortable about those making them. Several years back I would have agreed with people who asserted that Jews rejected a true messiah, but back then I believe I was ignorant.

It is not that I don't consider Jesus a messiah-figure. The problem is not in the statement of Jesus being a messiah, but rather in it not being socially constructively on a large scale. The problem with asserting that people have corrupted texts or rejected a messiah is that these assertions often come from people who aren't interested in a socially constructive agenda with the religious communities of the people they target.

You can assert that a person has mistaken beliefs, but if you're not prepared to fix the problems in that religious community or get involved, you're not doing much good. Instead, you're doing something to destroy and disrupt that community and I think that is disrespectful.

I think what Jews, Christians and Muslims (less often true of Jews) all need to understand is that you may think that you are doing God a favour by correcting people's beliefs, but it could be that God was involved in making that community grow. You would then be disrupting something God helped create.

Christians and Muslims can have an outrageous arrogance and overblown confidence in the correctness of their beliefs, especially in comparison to adherents of other faiths. Personally, however, I am finding that it is more likely that people can find justification for their own beliefs than for there to be any such thing as a "uniquely correct belief." I find that what a lot of people think is a "uniquely correct belief" is a belief born out of ignorance of another religious community. Ultimately it means that it is less likely for the other community to be wrong in their beliefs because what one considered to be "uniquely correct" and superior to the other's beliefs came from ignorance rather than correct knowledge and understanding.

For this reason, I no longer consider it constructive to tell another religious group their beliefs are wrong because if I am not prepared to get involved in their community or to try to understand their beliefs, I obviously have no idea how I could solve the problems in that community. Even worse, I would probably have more interest in destroying the integrity of that community.

The Holy Qur'an does not state that all of the Bible is corrupt, but Muslims are warned to approach it with a caution.

Considering what I have just said, if you have no interest in participating in a Christian community (this could be any Christian community you might find out of all those in the world, many of which are vastly different) and solving the problems in that community, anything you say about a corrupted text isn't very meaningful. A religion isn't just a set of beliefs. It is a life. It's an experience. It's a relationship with God. But if a religion has a life, then it must also have a soul. That soul manifests itself in community and if you are not interested in living in that community, what benefit is there in telling those people that what they believe is wrong? Have you demonstrated that you know and understand those people?
 
Oh goody, one of those "let's all tell each other what their religion says" threads .... can I join in LOL

Salam BB .. think you will find this interesting (refers to the Quranic verse mentioned earlier), it was published in the Gulf News 2 days ago. An extract:

"Almighty Allah condemns all acts of violence in the scriptures. The true religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam forbid the killing of innocent people, irrespective of the cause - religious, political or social beliefs," said Dr Mustafa Bu Hendi, professor of comparative religion and interpretation at the Islamic Studies Department of the Faculty of Arts and Humanities, Hassan II University, Casablanca, Morocco.

He was delivering the fifth of a series of Ramadan lectures entitled "Violence and Religions" at the majlis of Shaikh Mohammad Bin Zayed Al Nahyan, Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi and Deputy Supreme Commander of the UAE Armed Forces.
He said the laws of the scriptures that apply to the Christians and Jews are emphasised for the Muslims too.

http://www.gulfnews.com/Nation/Society/10347422.html

He is not an historical scholar but I would accept his opinion over mine any day ;)

Please note the words "true religions" .. of course that has connotations for what the "true" religions are but we know the ten commandents exist in all three faiths.

and here is the Arabic, transliteration and English meaning of the verse .. just put 5:32 into the verse search box on the right:

Quran Search

Also if you read the verses above and below you will see this is confirming the Jewish scripture and is not meant as "news" or "for Muslims". It is from the story of Cane and Abel. You might seeing as copying .. I see it as confirmation.

I think something interesting to think about is what does corruption of a faith mean?

Obviously for Muslims the Trinity (perhaps misunderstood? I certainly know I don't understand it) is blasphemy but does that corrupt the Bible or the followers and teachers of the Bible?

The Bible says repeatedly that there is only ONE G-d:

“‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’ ‘The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’” (Mark 12:28-30).

“Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus replied: “Why do you call me good? No one is good — except God alone.” (Mark 10:17-18)

Exodus 20:2–7
2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

3 Do not have any other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

If you want to enter life, obey the commandments. Matthew 19:17 - as above.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Of course that will now start a row with Christians as to what those verses mean ... isn't this where corruption or belief of corruption of all faiths come from?

From the Quran:

Say: “O people of the Book (Christians and Jews)! Come to a word that is just between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords beside God.” (Quran, 3:64)

I won't give an example for Judaism because I know so little of their scriptures but just to be silly let's say Jews have taken to wearing pink tutu's on Wednesdays ... does that make Judaism corrupt or Jews corrupt (from their faith).

In Afghanistan recently a law was passed that appears to allow a man to starve his wife to death if she refuses his advances for 5 days ... these people claim to be good strict Muslims so does that make the Quran corrupt or the loonies that made and support the law corrupt?


To me Koranist has already given us the answer from the Quran:

But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)

We know that Jews in Medina used to come to the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) for "legal" decisions and he used to refer to the Jewish law to decide on punishment ... doesn't that suggest something to everyone?

Surely if Judaism and Christianity were by then null and void he would refer to the Quran, not the Jewish laws?

As for Jews not being people of faith (from the above verse) ... hands up who is truly a person of faith ... which one of us NEVER sins and follows every single instruction in our faith? Does Allah mean that Jews have drifted from their faith or follow practices not in their laws? Possibly or he might mean they have totally re-written their books but surely it is for Him to decide and judge, not us.

Allah tells us that on the Day of Judgement HE will tell us the difference between us ... think I'll wait for the definitative answer ;)
 
Sorry Dondi forgot to answer the original post.

As I say above the Bible is full of "there is only One G-d" verses so I have no problem asking the people of the book about the Oneness of Allah, the Prophets (pbuh) or the Commandments .. they exist in all the scriptures and I take great comfort in the teachings of Jesus (pbuh).

My move from Christianity was based purely on the introduction as Jesus (pbuh) as the son of G-d, which I believe was added a long time after he left this earth.
 
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