seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
I agree, forgiveness is not the same as absolution.
That's like saying that humans cannot practice mercy. (You run into that free-will thing, again.)
Netti-Netti
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seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Absolution is a legalistic term involving judgment under Law. Forgiveness comes from the heart.
James 2
Marsh
Disagreeable By Nature
What is Christ? As if Jesus is a thing to be analyzed? And as if the created are in a position to analyze the one who was with God in the beginning?
This is not as complicated as some would like to believe, and the only reason why people have been debating this issue for centuries is out of pure selfishness (i.e. everyone wants to be the one who uncovered the truth about Jesus, so that they can found a church or a movement or a cult or whatever, and be remembered for how smart they were).
Y'all remember the scene in Genesis where Jacob was wrestling with a man, and wouldn't let go because the man wouldn't tell Jacob his name? The man didn't tell Jacob, because he said Jacob could see for himself that it was beautiful. Ever wonder why that completely random bit was included in the very first book of the Bible?
Who was Jesus? Or rather, who is Jesus? Jesus is Jesus! What more do you want to know about him, or need to know about him? Jesus said that he and the Father are one; is it really that important to figure out how that is possible? To figure out the nuts and bolts of oneness with God? Like, did Jesus mean that he and the Father are the exact same? Or did he mean they share the same spirit? Or did he mean-- and onward, infinitely, until there are so many divisions among Christians that we all lose sight of what's really important?
Jesus is Jesus. If you believe the things that Jesus said about himself, then you believe that he is your saviour, and that he is the appointed judge for the big trial at the end of the age which is when he will save you, and that he will not leave you as an orphan, and that he will make his abode in your heart, and so on. Analysis is pointless, because it leads nowhere, except around in circles. And do you know why analysis leads a person around in circles? Because God gets a kick out of people trying to analyze him, rather than to simply believe in the simple truths that he sent Jesus to teach.
But by all means, analyze away if it makes you feel better. But I'll hazard that there isn't a single Christian on this forum who can honestly say that they were saved by theology.
Dream
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I think the reason people have debated this for centuries may seem self serving to you, but that is just how it appears to you. If everything is ok for you, than that's great.
Netti-Netti
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I've gotten very impatient with linguistics myself, but I still see some value to it. No one is saved by theology, but theology is one way to give direction and momentum to the efforts I make to refine my faith-seeking understanding and to stay alert to guidance.
It's natural to want to know. Religion needs to be both emotionally and intellectually satisfying.
As I see it, Jesus was an expression of Cosmic Christ. He was a personification of Sonship. Sorry for the cut and paste, but this covers it:
....The Eternal Son is the spiritual personalization of the Paradise Father's universal and infinite concept of divine reality, unqualified spirit, and absolute personality. And thereby does the Son constitute the divine revelation of the creator identity of the Universal Father. The perfect personality of the Son discloses that the Father is actually the eternal and universal source of all the meanings and values of the spiritual, the volitional, the purposeful, and the personal.
...The Eternal Son is the spiritual center and the divine administrator of the spiritual government of the universe of universes. The Universal Father is first a creator and then a controller; the Eternal Son is first a cocreator and then a spiritual administrator. "God is spirit," and the Son is a personal revelation of that spirit. The First Source and Center is the Volitional Absolute; the Second Source and Center is the Personality Absolute.
...When a Son of the Eternal Son appeared on Urantia, those who fraternized with this divine being in human form alluded to him as "He who was from the beginning, whom we have heard, whom we have seen with our eyes, whom we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, even the Word of life." And this bestowal Son came forth from the Father just as truly as did the Original Son, as is suggested in one of his earthly prayers: "And now, O my Father, glorify me with your own self, with the glory which I had with you before this world was."
...The Eternal Son is the spiritual center and the divine administrator of the spiritual government of the universe of universes. The Universal Father is first a creator and then a controller; the Eternal Son is first a cocreator and then a spiritual administrator. "God is spirit," and the Son is a personal revelation of that spirit. The First Source and Center is the Volitional Absolute; the Second Source and Center is the Personality Absolute.
...When a Son of the Eternal Son appeared on Urantia, those who fraternized with this divine being in human form alluded to him as "He who was from the beginning, whom we have heard, whom we have seen with our eyes, whom we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, even the Word of life." And this bestowal Son came forth from the Father just as truly as did the Original Son, as is suggested in one of his earthly prayers: "And now, O my Father, glorify me with your own self, with the glory which I had with you before this world was."
citizenzen
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This is, of course, a matter of perspective and an individual desire to accept what has been told to them.
I've nearly finished reading Jesus, Interrupted by Bart Ehrman, and what that he puts forth and what this thread alludes to is that it isn't so obvious and clear cut as you wish to make it out.
Was Jesus God? It depends on which book you want to use to confirm or deny it. The process of determining which views became the canon was rife with politics and power struggles. There were a number of divergent opinions as to who and what Jesus was... many which never made it into the Bible. Why shouldn't we open this process and the results of this very human process to debate?
The earliest books were written decades after Jesus died and were based upon an oral transmission, passed on by true believers who had every reason to turn a man into a myth and to see that their version of the story prevailed. There are so many reasons to question what we've been told about Jesus and the Bible that it boggles my mind that people don't invest more time looking into this.
As long as I can remember I've known instinctively that story of Jesus and the Bible should not be taken on face value. Ehrman's book brings into focus the very reasons why investigation and analysis are necessary when it comes to this subject.
Faithfulservant
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The bible is clear on who Jesus is if you dont pick and choose which authors of the books to believe. I would never read a source outside of the bible for clarification on who Jesus was especially if it contradicts what the word is saying. We call that false teaching or apostate teaching and we are taught to beware of them.
Dream
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Totally understand that, and I think the Urantia book is awfully long. I've seen a copy once (or was it two phone books duck-taped together?) The idea of the eternal son is directly Biblical, however. It's not really 'From' the Urantia book. The son is represented in Joseph's dream, where he and his brothers are all stars. They are sons of God in the dream. 'The Son' is different but same, and that is what is being discussed. The identity of Jesus is involved. If you are reading Psalms, I think Israel appears to be the moon. Regardless of the Urantia book 'The Son' cannot be just a man. It is just hard to find words, but going by John I'd say 'The Son' is the 'Word' that is tabernacled 'Among us'.
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
citizenzen
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from wikipedia...
Bart D. Ehrman is an American New Testament scholar and textual critic of early Christianity. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor and Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He has written about how the original New Testament texts were frequently altered by scribes for a variety of reasons, and argues that these alterations affect the interpretation of the texts.
Ignore him all you like FS, but his credentials are hard to dismiss so blithely.
Namaste Marsh,
What are the Gospels or the entire New Testament but analysis by the created of Jesus?
Completely random bit? Jacob wrestling with himself, his higher self, G!d a random bit? Why was he asking his name, for the same reason Moses asked what do I call you. At the time names meant everything, it defined your traits, your lineage, your line of work, where you came from. Now the hip, another not quite so random thing...nor sending all he owned, all his wives and children, all his preconcieved notions on ahead of them, and staying on the other side of the water...another not so random bit.
You mean if you believe what the created said and wrote about him.
G!d gets a kick out of this, did he tell you this over lunch?
Seriously, I enjoy every jot and tittle in the book and contemplating why folks decided to add to it, modify it, and distort it. The book we read is not the book that was written. Some of our favorite scenes were added, not contained in the original. I must admit I liked the story of ...without sin, cast the first stone...unfortunately it is fraudulent... And in the beginning was the word,,,to bad that is an addition too.
That is always the indication to me that I need to stay away from a group....when I'm told not to read anything else.
Sitting and talking with Bart I am sorry that his studies took him away from Christianity. This is the problem as I see it. We as a group are screaming the bible is the word when we know it isn't. We know it has been distorted and we've been hoodwinked. But there is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater, it is time for a critical revamping of the bible, soup to nuts throw out the stuff that wasn't origional or change to color add a footnote make it clear. And then in 20 years do it again...and again...as our level of knowledge increases.
Every other textbook changes with new information. The bible sure we have slightly different interpretations, but we still carry the old KJV as if it were gospel....well it ain't it is just King James VERSION of the bible.
Faithfulservant
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Faithfulservant
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And thats why we are so different in our beliefs. To me the bible is THE resource for knowledge of God to you its just A resource. and look at how different our beliefs are.
China Cat Sunflower
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Tell me exactly what Jesus is. Tell me exactly what God is. Then I'll compare thing one and thing two and tell you if it's the same thing.
It seems to me that Jesus is the practical application of what God is. I'm saying, just to be clear, that that's what my reading of the Bible says to me. I'm saying that that's the import of the NT story, on its face, in the simplest sense. Now, if we want to sanitize and syncretize the NT story to bring it up to date, for whatever political reasons, we might need to de-deify Jesus. But if we're asking what the intent of the authors of the NT was (canonical version), we have to say that they intended to portray him as at least half deity. And half deity is like half pregnant. That doesn't translate into a proof of the trinity doctrine, but it also doesn't support the idea of Jesus as merely a very good man.
A better question is: why do we want Jesus not to be God?
Chris
It seems to me that Jesus is the practical application of what God is. I'm saying, just to be clear, that that's what my reading of the Bible says to me. I'm saying that that's the import of the NT story, on its face, in the simplest sense. Now, if we want to sanitize and syncretize the NT story to bring it up to date, for whatever political reasons, we might need to de-deify Jesus. But if we're asking what the intent of the authors of the NT was (canonical version), we have to say that they intended to portray him as at least half deity. And half deity is like half pregnant. That doesn't translate into a proof of the trinity doctrine, but it also doesn't support the idea of Jesus as merely a very good man.
A better question is: why do we want Jesus not to be God?
Chris
Faithfulservant
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Good question and I would like people to answer this one..
I personally think its because if they were forced to admit that He is God then they would have to admit that everything else is true and what that implies.
China Cat Sunflower
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Yeah. And what does that imply? I think that it implies that 1) sin is actually sin, and 2) there's only one way to salvation. This is what the Bible says, isn't it? But it's so un PC. It's so not get alongy. It's so unworldly. It's so, so...uh, impractical from the standpoint of everything that makes the world go around.
Chris
Faithfulservant
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exactly /sigh
citizenzen
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How you want to revamp is up to you. But it is intellectually dishonest to cling to the notion that the Bible is the word of God when it is obviously the work of men.
Now for the good news... humans are entirely capable of connecting with God. (whatever version you want to believe in) So it's not as if the Bible has no worth. It just doesn't serve anybody to make it into something that it's not.
My advice: try to connect with the core of what Jesus, the Buddha, Allah and other great sages were talking about. Forget the books. We know what we should be doing to become one with God.
Compassion, selflessness, wisdom and tireless inquiry are road to oneness. No scripture necessary.
Faithfulservant
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I know what I say is cuckoo to you CZ but to turn it around yours is equally cuckoo to me hehe
wooo wooo looney tunes brother
wooo wooo looney tunes brother
I have no need to de-deify Jesus, I see him as G!ds son, a child of G!d, born a man, and during his life developing a deep understanding of oneness with G!d. To me that is our salvation, that is the four minute mile...nobody could break it till he showed us the way, prior to he it was impossible. Now we as the continually begotten of the only begotten, we has sons and daughters of G!d can also realize our oneness with the creator, both creator and created. Forget the trinity we've got a multinity going.
There does exist a problem with what you take out. Are we saying G!d had a hand in the scribes, in the interpretters, I think it possible. What you meant for your agenda G!d meant it for good.
By the way I have no issues anyone thinking that the only way to salvation is through Jesus for them. But that is your interpretation for you. Sort of like what Faithful said, accept I don't see what you believe as cuckoo, I see that what you believe is truth for you, "but to turn it around" can you allow my view to be truth for me?
Now as for sin...and hell...and damnation...I still can't figure out how Christians took the Jewish writings and then believed something the Jews don't.
There does exist a problem with what you take out. Are we saying G!d had a hand in the scribes, in the interpretters, I think it possible. What you meant for your agenda G!d meant it for good.
By the way I have no issues anyone thinking that the only way to salvation is through Jesus for them. But that is your interpretation for you. Sort of like what Faithful said, accept I don't see what you believe as cuckoo, I see that what you believe is truth for you, "but to turn it around" can you allow my view to be truth for me?
Now as for sin...and hell...and damnation...I still can't figure out how Christians took the Jewish writings and then believed something the Jews don't.