Hell is the Grave

[ARMyers]

Perhaps the greatest indictment against the theory of an immortal soul living on after the death of the body, is the related doctrine of hell. If the soul is immortal, a place must be found for the souls of the disobedient as well as for those of the worthy; and as the Bible reveals that most men are in the former category, and "have no hope" (Eph 2:12), so hell must be the destiny of the majority.

This is true, but now we must establish what hell signifies.

Many churches interpret the term as describing a place of sulphuric flame and everlasting torture (largely taking from Milton, Dante, and pagan writings and beliefs). Certain symbolic passages of the Bible are taken out of their context and given a meaning never intended, and upon this distorted foundation of scripture, there has been built up the terrible doctrine that God consigns to everlasting misery, the souls of bothe the wicked and the ignorant.

Such a "hell" is a figment of the imagination, and an insult to the God of love revealed in the Bible, the Christian world condemns a Hitler for the agony and torture that he instituted in the concentration camps of Germany, and yet teaches that God permits something even much worse and permanent in hell.

A consideration of the evidence, however, will show that the doctrine is false. False it must be, of course, if the soul of a man is mortal as I will later post; for the two doctrines stand or fall together.

The word "hell" comes from an Anglo-Saxon root signifying "to cover." It finds its place in such words as "helmet" which signifies a covering for the head. The "place of covering" referred to as "hell" in most places where it is used in the Bible, is the grave.

The word "hell" has been used as a translation for the Hebrew word, Sheol in the Old Testament, and the Greek word, Hades in the New Testament. But these words have also been rendered "grave" as in Genesis 42:38, Psalms 30:3, and the following places:

"O grave (sheol) I will be thy destruction" (Hosea 13:14)
"O death, where is thy sting? O grave (hades) where is thy victory?" (1 Corinthians 15:55)

To be consistent, Sheol and Hades should have been uniformly translated "grave" throughout the Bible.

The hell of the Bible, therefore, is the grave. The Psalmist declared:

"Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol)" (Psalm 16:10)
"God shall redeem my soul from the power of the grave (sheol)" (Psalm 49:14-15)

Of Jonah it is recorded that he cried "out of the belly of hell (sheol)." The "hell" was the belly of the fish (Jonah 2:1-2), a place of covering which was to him a grave, but certainly not the "hell" of popular theology.

Peter used the term to teach the doctrine of the resurrection declaring concerning Christ: "His soul was not left in hell (hades)" (Acts 2:31). It is obvious that Jesus never went to the place of torture, to which many churches refer to "hell," but that he did go to a place of covering, into the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea. This was "hell" of Peter's discourse, from whence Christ rose after three days' burial.

Another word rendered "hell" in the New Testament is Gehenna. Gehenna was a valley ouside the walls of Jerusalem (still called by this name) in which burned a fire that was fed by the refuse of the city. Anything worthless, and to be completely destroyed was consigned into Gehenna. The term thus became synonymous with the ideas of rejection, dishonor, judgment, and utter destruction.

The Lord used the term in that way to describe the fate of the wicked.

Annihilation is a far more merciful end than the terrible fate of suffering eternal torment in a hell of sulphuric flame, presided over by a diabolic genius of torture, such as some have conjured up! The idea is completely foreign to the teaching of the Bible, and to the character of the God of love and mercy revealed therein.

The Bible sets forth death as the punishment for sin (Romans 5:12), and such passages as Mark 9:43 (where the word Gehenna appears) are properly interpreted as highly descriptive and figurative expressions representing the disgrace and total extinction that awaits the sinner at Christ's return (Psalm 37:10, 20, 36; 2 Thess 1:9-10, Prov 24:20, Job 21:30).

Perhaps this is best illustrated by considering one use of this word, Gehenna.

It occurs, as we have stated, in Mark 9:43, and is there rendered "into hell (Gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched."

This continuously burning fire in Gehenna was the Jerusalem rubbish destructor that was always kept burning to consume the rubbish of the city, including the bodies of criminals.

That was clearly obvious to the people of Christ's day, though it may not be so to us today. However, a litte research into scripture will prove our point.

The Lord continued on from his reference to Gehenna, or hell, by stating:

"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is no quenched." (v. 46)

In doing so, he was quoting from Isaiah 66:24, which speaks of a form of instruction that will be set up in the Promised Land, in the future age, when Christ will reign on earth. The prophet declares:

"They (worshippers) shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh."

If these worshippers are able to go forth and view the results of judgment and punishment, the place where the "worm shall not die," is certainly not the "hell" of current theology, but merely the grave or sepulchre of wicked men. Ezekiel 39:11, 15, 16 speaks of a great mauseleum being set up in the Holy Land, to commemorate the overthrow of those who will come up against Jerusalem to battle at the end of time. This could well be the place referred to literally in Isaiah 66:46 and figuratively in Mark 9:43.

One fact emerges, that the "hell" of the Bible is the grave.

Thank you.

 

[wil]

Namaste ARMeyers,

Welcome to IO. Quite the first post.

 

[iBrian]

Welcome to the forums - you may find this article on the main site of interest:
jesus and hell: a provocative re-interpretation - interfaith.org

 

[Marsh]

Many churches interpret the term as describing a place of sulphuric flame and everlasting torture (largely taking from Milton, Dante, and pagan writings and beliefs). Certain symbolic passages of the Bible are taken out of their context and given a meaning never intended, and upon this distorted foundation of scripture, there has been built up the terrible doctrine that God consigns to everlasting misery, the souls of bothe the wicked and the ignorant.

Very cool. What part do you think the Lake of Fire plays in this, as depicted in the Revelation? I assume that this is the basis of The Inferno and other hell-related fiction. Do you see the Lake of Fire as something figurative, or is it real but not related to the doctrine of Hell, or something else entirely?

 

[ARMyers]

Revelations symbolically speaks about future events at the standpoint of John that begins shortly after John and ends after the foundation of the Kingdom on Earth and even more after the millenial reign of Christ. The "Lake of Fire," like Gehenna, as mentioned at the end of Revelations is a symbolic place of destruction.

 

[Marsh]

Revelations symbolically speaks about future events at the standpoint of John that begins shortly after John and ends after the foundation of the Kingdom on Earth and even more after the millenial reign of Christ. The "Lake of Fire," like Gehenna, as mentioned at the end of Revelations is a symbolic place of destruction.

Is it the same as the grave?

 

[juantoo3]

Perhaps the greatest indictment against the theory of an immortal soul living on after the death of the body, is the related doctrine of hell. If the soul is immortal, a place must be found for the souls of the disobedient as well as for those of the worthy; and as the Bible reveals that most men are in the former category, and "have no hope" (Eph 2:12), so hell must be the destiny of the majority.

This is true, but now we must establish what hell signifies.

<Moderator hat on>

Greetings Mr. Myers. I am left to wonder if this is your writing, or another's? It is remarkably similar to what I found here:

(5) The Need of Redemption from Death

written there by H. P. Mansfield.



If it is not written by you, would you please extend the courtesy of crediting the author? This is not only right and fair, it is also international copyright law. Thank you.

<Moderator hat off>

 

[Dream]

Hi ARMyers!

You are needed you know, out here in the real world instead of couped up with those others. Terrific site you posted from. Iron can sharpen iron, and this is a think tank for you, where you can fully 'Test the spirits': your spirits. I am talking about those spirits that are trying to confine the spirit of Christ to Sundays & Wednesdays and tell you whom you may marry. They are afraid that if you leave the fold you will dilute the pure gospel which you have been so fortunate to receive in unequalled purity. By the way, isn't amazing that you were chosen. I mean, don't you ever wonder if you might just be talking out of a cave? They withold the deep truths of the gospels to make you an errand boy. You have obeyed the command to be baptized, but have you really tested the spirits? What if the antipas site were holding something back?

And sorry if everybody seems unwelcoming. It really is an awesome post, but of course its not yours.

 

[ARMyers]

<Moderator hat on>

Greetings Mr. Myers. I am left to wonder if this is your writing, or another's? It is remarkably similar to what I found here:

If it is not written by you, would you please extend the courtesy of crediting the author? This is not only right and fair, it is also international copyright law. Thank you.

<Moderator hat off>

That it is. Only presenting it to the forums. I apologize I did not quote him. I do not see an edit button so that I might give his words credit. I am sure that he would not much mind whether he had credit or not as long as the point is getting across. Members of the truth are not concerned with receiving credit from the world, especially in their remarks on truth in the Bible, as those are God's words. If you wish to read more, read "Keys to Understanding Scripture" by Mansfield. I would also suggest reading the works of Robert Roberts and Dr. John Thomas. In the same manner, I offer a blanket statement to all that if you wish to use any words I say here or elsewhere as your own, go ahead.

 

[ARMyers]

Is it the same as the grave?

No. The Lake of Fire is complete destruction. Death is like falling into a deep sleep and the grave is a resting place. The greatest evidence for this way of thinking is Job 3, Matthew 9:24 and John 11:11. If you are responsible for the Truth, you will "rest" or die until you are "awakened" or resurrected. If you are found worthy, you will be made immortal to reign with Christ. If you are found unworthy, you will be cast out to die and stay dead forever. If you are not responsible, you will die as the beasts in the field (Psalm 49) and be in the grave forever.

In the end, we all die...

"For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity." (Eccl. 3:19)

 

[ARMyers]

Hi ARMyers!

You are needed you know, out here in the real world instead of couped up with those others. Terrific site you posted from. Iron can sharpen iron, and this is a think tank for you, where you can fully 'Test the spirits': your spirits. I am talking about those spirits that are trying to confine the spirit of Christ to Sundays & Wednesdays and tell you whom you may marry. They are afraid that if you leave the fold you will dilute the pure gospel which you have been so fortunate to receive in unequalled purity. By the way, isn't amazing that you were chosen. I mean, don't you ever wonder if you might just be talking out of a cave? They withold the deep truths of the gospels to make you an errand boy. You have obeyed the command to be baptized, but have you really tested the spirits? What if the antipas site were holding something back?

I am not of the Antipas. I am of the Bereans. I wrote from the book and not the Antipas site. Though we use the same study materials, we disagree on some first principal issues. Doctrinal purity is absolutely imperative, this is represented by the virgin in Scripture. Those that corrupt and "paganize" the Truth are represented by the prostitute (or whore, as it is so called; the "Whore of Babylon").

I would argue that those that "confine" the Spirit of Christ do not fully "possess" the Spirit of Christ. While some have the Truth, those that do not do the work of the Spirit of Christ are as the five foolish virgins who did not fill their lamps with oil. They will be cast out.

It is amazing that I was chosen by the Lord to do the Lord's work. But I sometimes wonder if I am destined for eternal salvation or eternal damnation. I wonder if I am the good soil sprouting up good fruit or if I am the bad soil that produces vegetation that is choked by weeds. I do not dwell on these things however, I must ever strive forward to correct my actions, spread the Truth, and do good with Love and Faith in my heart. If I can reach just one person (let alone all), I would be content, for the Truth of things is harsh and people much want to believe the lies and stay in their "caves."

You must understand the Truth and believe in the True Father and the True Son in order to be baptized. Otherwise, your baptism is invalid and profits you nothing. It is also a statement to continuously act as a child of the Lord, a son of the Father and a brother of Christ, and a turn away from sins and the affairs of this world.

And sorry if everybody seems unwelcoming. It really is an awesome post, but of course its not yours.

I did not feel that people were unwelcoming, but thank you. There are many interesting people on this site with interesting ideas.

I again apologize for not giving reference to Mansfield. I intended only to present the information, and his words are truthful and concise. I care not if people take my words and use them for whatever end, and so I assume my brothers are the same as long as the point is coming across and people learn the truth of things. In retrospect, it would have been better to give such information so that people can read into it more, but unfortunately, I did not think about it at the time. If I use more exerpts, I will be sure to quote them.

I repeat my previous statement: anyone may use my statements as their own. I care not for copyrights and I will never sue. I only care that the Truth is spread and people come to the one True Father.

 

[Dream]

I am not of the Antipas. I am of the Bereans. I wrote from the book and not the Antipas site. Though we use the same study materials, we disagree on some first principal issues. Doctrinal purity is absolutely imperative, this is represented by the virgin in Scripture. Those that corrupt and "paganize" the Truth are represented by the prostitute (or whore, as it is so called; the "Whore of Babylon").

I would argue that those that "confine" the Spirit of Christ do not fully "possess" the Spirit of Christ. While some have the Truth, those that do not do the work of the Spirit of Christ are as the five foolish virgins who did not fill their lamps with oil. They will be cast out.

It is amazing that I was chosen by the Lord to do the Lord's work. But I sometimes wonder if I am destined for eternal salvation or eternal damnation. I wonder if I am the good soil sprouting up good fruit or if I am the bad soil that produces vegetation that is choked by weeds. I do not dwell on these things however, I must ever strive forward to correct my actions, spread the Truth, and do good with Love and Faith in my heart. If I can reach just one person (let alone all), I would be content, for the Truth of things is harsh and people much want to believe the lies and stay in their "caves."

You must understand the Truth and believe in the True Father and the True Son in order to be baptized. Otherwise, your baptism is invalid and profits you nothing. It is also a statement to continuously act as a child of the Lord, a son of the Father and a brother of Christ, and a turn away from sins and the affairs of this world.



I did not feel that people were unwelcoming, but thank you. There are many interesting people on this site with interesting ideas.

I again apologize for not giving reference to Mansfield. I intended only to present the information, and his words are truthful and concise. I care not if people take my words and use them for whatever end, and so I assume my brothers are the same as long as the point is coming across and people learn the truth of things. In retrospect, it would have been better to give such information so that people can read into it more, but unfortunately, I did not think about it at the time. If I use more exerpts, I will be sure to quote them.

I repeat my previous statement: anyone may use my statements as their own. I care not for copyrights and I will never sue. I only care that the Truth is spread and people come to the one True Father.

It is ok with me whatever you quote. The Bereans have a wonderful reputation as Bible students and as people. There are many nice things that could be said about you, that you love your children and teach truths from the Bible; but the same could also be said for Catholic families. Your group is over 100 years old now, but your knowledge has gone to your heads to the degree that you actually don't understand the gospel. You do not understand Revelation but use complicated historical explanations to convince yourselves that you do: thus guaranteeing you may never. You do not correctly identify the body of Christ, but cut off anything that seems slightly ill. You horde your talents, refusing to submit to your fellow Christians. Because of this you experience painful divisions, and you are almost all cousins. You are missionaries who peddle anti-christ. You are naked and blind. When someone hears the call to 'Come out of her my people' you try to stop them on the way. You are the new Pharisees, and like the old Pharisees you say to yourselves "If I can reach just one person (let alone all), I would be content, for the Truth of things is harsh and people much want to believe the lies and stay in their 'caves.'"

I think you prefer to hear it like it is, or I wouldn't be talking like this. I mean no disrespect to a faithful Christian like you. If you weren't representing the Christadelphians or Bereans I could beat around the bush more. The thing is, nobody has better reference materials than Bereans. Nobody debates better than you, but all of your materials are tainted with anti-brotherhood sentiment. It is your amazing depth combined with the anti-christian approach that makes them extra toxic. It stems from your being right so often that suddenly you no longer can say "if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know." It is your fault that the Southern Baptists are becoming charismatics, for instance. You may throw some leaflets at them, but you refuse to see Christ in them. You horde instead of investing yourselves. For that reason, you have completely failed to understand the book of Revelation which you think is a fortune telling book. When it said "Behold I am coming quickly" you thought it said "Prickly."

The remedy is for you all to disperse and join those 'unfortunate' and 'lesser' people that 'only think they are Christian'.

 

[ARMyers]

I am sorry you feel that way. I do not know if you have met with any of the Bereans, or if they have treated you harshly, not listening to your thoughts. We are all humans after all and subject of our flesh. Every single one of us is a hypocrite at some point in time. While we say how to walk in the spirit, we do things that go against it.

I am not related by blood to my brothers and sisters in the Truth. I have known the Bereans to be very loving, very respectful and open to other points of view. I have debated them on many issues concerning many things including Revelations. We are united in bonds of fellowship with one another through common belief in doctrine called the First Principals which are basic beliefs that are different than mainstream beliefs of other churches such as the Trinity and the immortal soul. Many of us do go out to other faiths to try to teach the Truth but are often thrown out by the pasture. I figured it was possible to give some points that would help and lead others to the Father on this site.

We call ourselves Bereans because we search out the scripture daily to find Truth. We will change if the Truth is something other than what we believe. Most of us are very open and will debate. Some of us will even debate the opposite side just to play "Devil's Advocate." The Pharisees believed they understood all scripture and were righteous. Bereans think no such thing. As a group, we believe we are closer than others, but we vary in knowledge as individuals. None of us would declare himself righteous.

As for joining other "Christians," that is an impossibility. Fellowship is an important issue (one shared by the Catholics) and cannot be bent. The specific issue with other faiths is that they do not believe in the same Father as we do. They believe that Christ is God, and therefore do not worship the same diety. They worship idols in the form of crosses and saints and believe different things than we do. We cannot corrupt ourselves with incorrect doctrines or practices. This is an issue discussed by Christ and all his apostles, especially Paul. It is the same reason why Israelites were not supposed to marry outside of Israel. They needed to keep themselves racially pure as we need to keep ourselves spiritually pure. It is also symbolized in the hygine laws of the Law of Moses and it is the essense of baptism (cleansing yourselves from sin/corruption and afixing yourselves to the Lord). We are commanded to keep ourselves separate. (2 Cor 6:14-18)

Again, I apologize if any Berean has treated you harshly and not given you a listening ear. I would hope that he has learned the error of his ways and acted in a more loving manner. There are many things amongst the other religions that are admirable such as their faith and their loving attitudes. Jehova's Witnesses are not far from the truth and neither are the Baptists (according to the doctrines; not in practice), but it is neccessary for Truth to be upheld and so we cannot fellowship with them.

I offer myself on behalf of the Bereans and of Christ. I will speak about any issue or concern and will debate issues with you or anyone else. All I ask is for an open mind.

 

[wil]

As for joining other "Christians," that is an impossibility..... The specific issue with other faiths is that they do not believe in the same Father as we do. .... They needed to keep themselves racially pure as we need to keep ourselves spiritually pure. It is also symbolized in the hygine laws of the Law of Moses and it is the essense of baptism (cleansing yourselves from sin/corruption and afixing yourselves to the Lord). We are commanded to keep ourselves separate.

Namaste ARMeyers,

Ok, call me confused, time for some education is in order. I thought you were a follower of Rev. Moon? What is a Berean?

I'm confused because some of the most beautiful Interfaith services and gatherings I've been to were hosted by Moon in the DC area. Large gatherings, where Sunni and Shia sat at the same table. Native Americans, Wiccan and Christian at the same table. Largely the folks were from his group, largely Asian. But they still only made up 40% of the audience. Hundreds in attendance, great discussion, panels, talk by all. No one getting up my way is the only right way...

By the way you write this must have been some kinda outreach to sucker folks into thinking you were different, until we drank the sacremental wine??

 

[ARMyers]

Namaste ARMeyers,

Ok, call me confused, time for some education is in order. I thought you were a follower of Rev. Moon? What is a Berean?

I'm confused because some of the most beautiful Interfaith services and gatherings I've been to were hosted by Moon in the DC area. Large gatherings, where Sunni and Shia sat at the same table. Native Americans, Wiccan and Christian at the same table. Largely the folks were from his group, largely Asian. But they still only made up 40% of the audience. Hundreds in attendance, great discussion, panels, talk by all. No one getting up my way is the only right way...

By the way you write this must have been some kinda outreach to sucker folks into thinking you were different, until we drank the sacremental wine??

No idea who Reverend Moon is. You may have me confused with another person. My name is spelled Myers. I am not trying to "sucker" anyone into anything. There is no deception here. I am just offering a specific paradigm. All people believe their way is the "right way," as I am sure you do. I can only hope that people will read and be open for debate. So far only one person has asked questions. No one has debated me on any issue. As Dream has said "Iron sharpeneth Iron." Through debate we can see what the Truth of things are. I will change if I believe it is truthful, just as I hope you would change if something was proven truthful. I ask that people take my comments openly and seriously instead of write me off as one of those "Bible Nuts."

 

[wil]

I told you I was confused, I was confusing you with another new poster, my apologies.

All people believe their way is the "right way," as I am sure you do.

No, not all. I don't believe my way is the right way for anyone but me, in this moment and folks that also agree in this moment. I believe your way is the right way for you, in this moment.

So you think there are "Bible Nuts"? Can you define this for us? I may be one.

 

[citizenzen]

All people believe their way is the "right way," as I am sure you do.

I going to second wil here.

My way, is just one way. People all around the world are able to connect with God through a myriad different practices and beliefs. I would say that the common denominators of these paths are compassion and wisdom, but the exact methods vary from religion to religion, person to person.

 

[Dream]

We are all humans after all and subject of our flesh. Every single one of us is a hypocrite at some point in time. While we say how to walk in the spirit, we do things that go against it.

I think this is not so much hypocrasy as error or disobediance. Hypocrasy is striving for mere appearances. It can be for fooling others but more often for fooling ourselves. It is also called boasting of the flesh, and this is the problem I refer to. This boast is that you, a Christian, are able to 'keep' doctrines. If humans are able to keep them, then how is it that they can change?

We are united in bonds of fellowship with one another through common belief in doctrine called the First Principals which are basic beliefs that are different than mainstream beliefs of other churches such as the Trinity and the immortal soul.

These are not bonds of fellowship, but artificial divisions forcing you into an isolated little dot. These first principles, these basic beliefs, these are rules taught by men. Of course they have an appearance of righteousness, but they actually have no value as indicators of God's favor. Perhaps you call them teachings or doctrines. They are opinions, but they ought not to be a saw to sever Christ. So you think the Trinity is false and someone else doesn't. That is a gnat. It does not remove your responsibility towards them.

None of us would declare himself righteous.

Who would? That would be too obviously false. Even the pope doesn't say that. What you say instead is "We are united in bonds of fellowship with one another through common belief in doctrine." which is patently unscriptural. It is anti-christian. It really means you've dropped all responsibility for anyone you don't agree with. 1 John 1:5 tells us that God is light and then contrasts us against, saying we may walk in that light but "8 if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." John is making the point that doctrine (light) is not something you and I can 'Have' or be in this context. In other words, you cannot know, on the basis of doctrine, whether your brethren also walk in the light with you. God can shine through them but that's all. Division is human, artificial. Instead, says John brother of Jesus, 3:7 "7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous."
I John 1:9 He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still.

The main source for this 'No doctrine' concept, is John the Baptist. Matthew says he is the voice of Isaiah 40:3-5 which says:
3 "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain.
5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

As a Berean, you must know that this leveling must refer to the removal of human spiritual doctrinal authority, creeds etc. That is why John the Baptist was persecuted by authorities. He declared the end of their authority and ours.

Many of us do go out to other faiths to try to each the Truth but are often thrown out by the pasture.

The issue here is that they are also Christian. They are as Christian as you can ever be, doctrines or no doctrines. They say that they are Christian and that they want to be Christian. How is it that you can suggest their disagreement on a doctrine makes them unchristian? I see this 'going out' of yours as sort of like the friendly guesture of burying your master's gold so it doesn't get lost. Where is the increase? You are the Christian, so you are the investment. Just visiting is a fearful approach. You're saying you have a hard master who won't understand if you fellowship incorrectly and risk his investment.

 

[Dream]

Matthew 16:15-19
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

I will suggest to you that the foundation stone of the church is that God deals directly with man. This was the stone the builders rejected. They could not accept it, so they were crushed under it when it came. That's how the story goes. It is the same stone you reject when you stay seperate from fellow Christians over a doctrinal dispute.

 

[ARMyers]

I think this is not so much hypocrasy as error or disobediance. Hypocrasy is striving for mere appearances. It can be for fooling others but more often for fooling ourselves. It is also called boasting of the flesh, and this is the problem I refer to. This boast is that you, a Christian, are able to 'keep' doctrines. If humans are able to keep them, then how is it that they can change?
These are not bonds of fellowship, but artificial divisions forcing you into an isolated little dot. These first principles, these basic beliefs, these are rules taught by men. Of course they have an appearance of righteousness, but they actually have no value as indicators of God's favor. Perhaps you call them teachings or doctrines. They are opinions, but they ought not to be a saw to sever Christ. So you think the Trinity is false and someone else doesn't. That is a gnat. It does not remove your responsibility towards them.

Who would? That would be too obviously false. Even the pope doesn't say that. What you say instead is "We are united in bonds of fellowship with one another through common belief in doctrine." which is patently unscriptural. It is anti-christian. It really means you've dropped all responsibility for anyone you don't agree with. 1 John 1:5 tells us that God is light and then contrasts us against, saying we may walk in that light but "8 if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." John is making the point that doctrine (light) is not something you and I can 'Have' or be in this context. In other words, you cannot know, on the basis of doctrine, whether your brethren also walk in the light with you. God can shine through them but that's all. Division is human, artificial. Instead, says John brother of Jesus, 3:7 "7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous."
I John 1:9 He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still.

The main source for this 'No doctrine' concept, is John the Baptist. Matthew says he is the voice of Isaiah 40:3-5 which says:
3 "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain.
5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

As a Berean, you must know that this leveling must refer to the removal of human spiritual doctrinal authority, creeds etc. That is why John the Baptist was persecuted by authorities. He declared the end of their authority and ours.
The issue here is that they are also Christian. They are as Christian as you can ever be, doctrines or no doctrines. They say that they are Christian and that they want to be Christian. How is it that you can suggest their disagreement on a doctrine makes them unchristian? I see this 'going out' of yours as sort of like the friendly guesture of burying your master's gold so it doesn't get lost. Where is the increase? You are the Christian, so you are the investment. Just visiting is a fearful approach. You're saying you have a hard master who won't understand if you fellowship incorrectly and risk his investment.

I admire your intelligence. You seem to have wisdom. Perhaps you can answer these passages. I will quote some verses, but read the whole thing in context if you please.

1 Tim 6 "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."

1 Cor 5 "But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person" and "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened." This applies specifically to a sexually immoral man and generally to any that "be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." In this way he may realize the error of his ways and return to the faith.

1 Cor 10 "But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils."

2 Cor 6 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" and "And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" In case you do not know, Belial is of the tribe of Benjamin of Israel (part of the nation of God) that forsook the Lord and raped and killed a concubine which caused all of Israel to almost destroy all of the tribe of Benjamin. "Infidel" means unbeliever. "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."

Eph 5 "But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God" and "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them."

1 John 1 "If we say that we have fellowship with him [Yahweh], and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." In other words, the light is truth and we must walk in truth and fellowship all of the light and none in darkness. Our position is to try to bring those in darkness into the light of truth.

The Trinity theory is not a gnat by the way. It means that they, being of those that believe that Jesus is the Father, believe in another Diety and preach another gospel such as those argued against in Gal 1.

When we went out to other churches, we spoke with the preachers and ministers, many of whom agreed with us and knowingly rejected the truth because their ministry would leave.

The bonds of fellowship in which I speak is of the light spoken of in 1 John in which we are in fellowship with all those in the truth transcendent of space and time. We are not so brazen to think that only the Bereans know the truth. Just as Paul showed to Peter that he was of the truth, so we will accept those who are of the truth all throughout history to the beginning of time. We fellowship the Father and His son and do not allow ourselves to be corrupted by false teachings that are warned against:

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

Mat 24:11 "And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray."

Mat 24:24; Mark 13:22 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Gal 2:4 "But because of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage"

1 John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

2 Pet 2 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of" and "For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage."

If we fellowship err or those of the world, we are "unequally yoked." We are commanded to keep ourselves separate from the world. While we are to spread the truth, we cannot fellowship those not of the truth.