Is Repentance The Stimulus America Needs

A Letter To Camille Jordan

Thomas Paine 1797

(full text here)

Citizen Representative

As everything in your Report, relating to what you call worship, connects itself with the books called the Scriptures, I begin with a quotation therefrom. It may serve to give us some idea of the fanciful origin and fabrication of those books. 2 Chronicles xxxiv. 14, etc. "Hilkiah, the priest, found the book of the law of the Lord given by Moses. And Hilkiah, the priest, said to Shaphan, the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord, and Hilkiah delivered the book to Shaphan. And Shaphan, the scribe, told the king, (Josiah,) saying, Hilkiah, the priest, hath given me a book."

This pretended finding was about a thousand years after the time that Moses is said to have lived. Before this pretended finding, there was no such thing practised or known in the world as that which is called the law of Moses. This being the case, there is every apparent evidence that the books called the books of Moses (and which make the first part of what are called the Scriptures) are forgeries contrived between a priest and a limb of the law, Hilkiah, and Shaphan the scribc, a thousand years after Moses is said to have been dead.

Thus much for the first part of the Bible. Every other part is marked with circumstances equally as suspicious. We ought therefore to be reverentially careful how we ascribe books as his word, of which there is no evidence, and against which there is abundant evidence to the contrary, and every cause to suspect imposition.

In your report you speak continually of something by the name of worship, and you confine yourself to speak of one kind only, as if there were but one, and that one was unguestionably true.

The modes of worship are as various as the sects are numerous; and amidst all this variety and multiplicity there is but one article of belief in which every religion in the world agrees. That article has universal sanction. It is the belief of a God, or what the Greeks described by the word Theism, and the Latins by that of Deism. Upon this one article have been erected all the different superstructures of creeds and ceremonies continually warring with each other that now exist or ever existed.

The intellectual part of religion is a private affair between every man and his Maker, and in which no third party has any right to interfere. The practical part consists in our doing good to each other. But since religion has been made into a trade, the practical part has been made to consist of ceremonies performed by men called priests; and the people have been amused with ceremonial shows, processions, and bells. By devices of this kind true religion has been banished; and such means have been found out to extract money even from the pockets of the poor, instead of contributing to their relief.
 
In 1620 this nation wasn't conceived. No revolution. This was an English Compact, which contained your covenant.

These are not our forefathers you so carefully delineated.

Where is this covenant you spoke of during the creation of this country?

And how many masons?
 
John Adams to Benjamin Rush, June 12, 1812.

The National Fast, recommended by me turned me out of office. It was connected with the general assembly of the Presbyterian Church, which I had no concern in. That assembly has allarmed and alienated Quakers, Anabaptists, Mennonists, Moravians, Swedenborgians, Methodists, Catholicks, protestant Episcopalians, Arians, Socinians, Armenians, & & &, Atheists and Deists might be added. A general Suspicon prevailed that the Presbyterian Church was ambitious and aimed at an Establishment of a National Church. I was represented as a Presbyterian and at the head of this political and ecclesiastical Project. The secret whisper ran through them “Let us have Jefferson, Madison, Burr, any body, whether they be Philosophers, Deists, or even Atheists, rather than a Presbyterian President.” This principle is at the bottom of the unpopularity of national Fasts and Thanksgivings. Nothing is more dreaded than the National Government meddling with Religion.
 
Benjamin Franklin: in letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780

When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.



Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin, 1793

My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the Dissenting [Protestant] way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns of several points, as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist.
 
In 1620 this nation wasn't conceived. No revolution. This was an English Compact, which contained your covenant.These are not our forefathers you so carefully delineated.Where is this covenant you spoke of during the creation of this country?And how many masons?

Wil.
My list of founding fathers's denominations was a response to your deist comment.

In my original post I was refering to the spiritual roots of America that clearly go back to the Pilgrims vision for this land.

I believe America was blessed by God because of these roots. If you compare the origin and development of North and South America, it comes out loud and clear.

Wil,no turkey for you on Thanksgiving.
 
My list of founding fathers's [Mayflower passengers] denominations was a response to your deist comment.

I couldn't help notice that you ignored my voluminous refutation of state sponsored religion by a number of our most cherished Founding Fathers.

Do you think that may be why God hates us so much? :(
 
I couldn't help notice that you ignored my voluminous refutation of state sponsored religion by a number of our most cherished Founding Fathers.Do you think that may be why God hates us so much? :(

Citizen, my comment was addressed to Wil post, not yours.

Now, I do not know why you are posting all this "voluminous refutation of state sponsored religion." I must have triggered of hot button with you.

The discussion about church and state is an endless debate.

When you or I die, such discussion will be nonsensical and obsolete.

For me the relation of the religious and the secular is like the relation between our mind and body.

I do not believe our forefathers wanted to take religion out of politic. All they wanted to do is not have one denomination or religion be a monopoly. Atheism is also a religion but without God.

My original post just mentioned that we are chasing God out of this country. I did not specify a religion or a specific denomination.
 
Citizen, my comment was addressed to Wil post, not yours.

I don't know if you read the rules Soleil, but it's an open debate. Everybody gets to play.

Now, I do not know why you are posting all this "voluminous refutation of state sponsored religion."

If you can't remember your OP, let me refresh your memory...

This country has been prepared by God and blessed. Our founding fathers made a convenant with God but we have pushed God away of our institutions, our schools and our country in general

My voluminous refutations are just a reminder that while our Founding Fathers may have been religious, they clearly understood the danger of mixing religion and government.

You'd like our "institutions, our schools and our country" to make a covenant with God? Isn't that exactly what our Founding Fathers warned against?

Wouldn't that be like socialized religion?

Soleil, are you a socialist?
 
In my original post I was refering to the spiritual roots of America that clearly go back to the Pilgrims vision for this land.

I believe America was blessed by God because of these roots. If you compare the origin and development of North and South America, it comes out loud and clear.

Wil,no turkey for you on Thanksgiving.
So you aren't referring in your OP as America the country being blessed by our G!d with a covenant with our forefathers as stated but now with the English and the slaughtering of natives on these two continents... I gotcha.

Oh and just so ya know no reference to turkey on the Original thanksgiving, that is also revisionist history sort of like this discussion.
The discussion about church and state is an endless debate.

When you or I die, such discussion will be nonsensical and obsolete.

For me the relation of the religious and the secular is like the relation between our mind and body.
Now this debate has been going on for a couple hundred years...and somehow you think it will be over?? Sort of like those who think the second coming is at hand eh?

Now the last line I can agree with, but that again is a personal matter.
I do not believe our forefathers wanted to take religion out of politic. All they wanted to do is not have one denomination or religion be a monopoly. Atheism is also a religion but without God.

My original post just mentioned that we are chasing God out of this country. I did not specify a religion or a specific denomination.
So how has G!d been chased out? Surely not by eliminating voiced prayer as we all pray differently. Surely not by the 10 commandment debates as that is decidedly defining one religion over another..

Seems all actions have been to insure that one religion or denomination is not favored... I haven't seen any wholesale gov't sponsored church closings round here...
 
I don't know if you read the rules Soleil, but it's an open debate. Everybody gets to play.
Of course. I just wanted to let you know which post I was responding to so you to not misinterprete my comment.

If you can't remember your OP, let me refresh your memory...My voluminous refutations are just a reminder that while our Founding Fathers may have been religious, they clearly understood the danger of mixing religion and government.

They did not want a singular dominating religion. It does not mean that they wanted religion out of politic or education or business.

You would like our "institutions, our schools and our country" to make a covenant with God? Isn't that exactly what our Founding Fathers warned against?

What I would like is an openness to all. What we have now it the establishment of one monopoly religion: Humanism/secularism. Exactly what the founders wanted to avoid.

I do not mind to have it all present. All we need is the respect of others. God does not have to become a 4 letter word. It is totally stupid. The ACLU is promoting a belief system too with force and intimidation. It is totally anti American.
Someone can teach me why they do not believe in God. Someone can do the opposite.

that be like socialized religion? Soleil, are you a socialist?
I have no clue where you are going with this or what your point is
 
The ACLU is promoting a belief system too with force and intimidation. It is totally anti American.
They believe in the constitution and our personal rights and civil liberties and defend it (the constitution) and them (our civil liberties) at all costs.

Well not actually at all costs. How it works is I (john q public) have a complaint whereby I feel my constitional rights to freedom are being violated by my gov't. I then petition the ACLU to take my case. The ACLU reviews and finds a lawyer or law firm who has an interest in said case and they take the case pro bono. I personally fought the Department of Interior and the DC government utilizing their system on a first ammendment case.
 
They did not want a singular dominating religion. It does not mean that they wanted religion out of politic or education or business.

Actually they did actively call for religion to remain outside of government. I know that the texts I posted were a lot to wade through (as a skimmer, I can relate), but they thoroughly confirmed the desire to keep all religion outside of governance and I'll be happy to provide some highlights from them...

When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
• • •​
Nothing is more dreaded than the National Government meddling with Religion.
• • •​
The intellectual part of religion is a private affair between every man and his Maker, and in which no third party has any right to interfere.
• • •​
What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? ...in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people.
• • •​
We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance.
• • •​

All of these excerpts are posted in fuller context below and come from our most esteemed Founding Fathers: Thomas Jefferson, Bejamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, James Madison, and John Adams.

They certainly aren't advocating for the state to institute any religion, or all religions, they are arguing that it has no place in the governing of citizens. But on the other hand, they confirm that the people are free to practice whatever faith they choose. They are in complete agreement with our highest law, the Constitution:

Amendment I — Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

As for my asking you whether you're a socialist, most conservatives (and some liberals too) call for the government to have as limited powers possible and to let the free market decide its own course. When government owns or controls an industry we refer to that industry being "socialized", just as today many call the effort to provide healthcare for all citizens, "socialized medicine".

I think your proposing a version of "socialized religion": calling for government to become more involved in its application in our lives and laws, despite the fact that is directly counter to what our Founding Fathers advocated.

So I ask you, are you a socialist?

If you are, welcome to the club. I'm a socialist too. Although I'll continue to support socializing certain industries, I'm not on board with socializing faith. But keep trying to convince me, comrade, we all have our causes to advance.
 
I think you mean an ultra-right winger :confused:

I don't doubt that even ultra-right wingers can have socialistic tendencies.

But I really can't presume what Soleil's political leanings are.

I'm hoping he/she will tell me how they feel, at least in this [socialized religion] matter.
 
I love to be wrong on this one but I am convinced that the cause of this financial crisis and the decline of America are much deeper than most people believe.

This country has been prepared by God and blessed. Our founding fathers made a convenant with God but we have pushed God away of our institutions, our schools and our country in general

The earlier we stop being in denial, realize our mistakes and repent as a nation the faster the recovery will come.

It is beyond politicians programs, bankers' money and businesses

Does anyone feel the same way?

I would like to re-visit the OP and Soleil, I do not agree at all that repentance as a nation will help us with our financial recovery.

As I mentioned in another thread I think the economic crisis is mainly about the decline of our banking system, our real estate market and now our automotive sector as well.

There are bigger and more fundamental issues, but I do not believe they are religious. They are mainly ethical and moral in nature. These problems should be solved by putting visionary leaders in place and through education of the public about the causes of these problems.

In my view, our religious leaders should do what they can do well, help us to act compassionately toward each other, help one another and strive for peace.
 
A quick search of Recession + United States reveals the following...

Panic of 1797
1797–1800

Depression of 1807
1807–1814

Panic of 1819
1819–1824

Panic of 1837
1837–1843

Panic of 1857
1857–1860

Panic of 1873
1873–1879

Long Depression
1873–1896

Panic of 1893
1893–1896

Panic of 1907
1907–1908

Post-World War I recession
1918–1921

Great Depression
1929–1933

Recession of 1937
1937–1938

Recession of 1945
Feb-Oct 1945

Recession of 1948
Nov 1948–Oct 1949

Recession of 1953
July 1953–May 1954

Recession of 1958
Aug 1957–April 1958

Recession of 1960-1
April 1960–Feb 1961

Recession of 1969-70
Dec 1969–Nov 1970

1973 oil crisis
1973–1974 stock market crash
Nov. 1973– March 1975

1980 recession
Jan-July 1980

Early 1980s recession
July 1981–Nov 1982

Early 1990s recession
July 1990–March 1991

Early 2000s recession
Mar-Nov 2001

Late 2000s recession

Looks like we needed to start repenting immediately after this country was born.

Those damn Founding Fathers and their partying! Look what they've got us into!
 
I think your proposing a version of "socialized religion": calling for government to become more involved in its application in our lives and laws, despite the fact that is directly counter to what our Founding Fathers advocated.

So I ask you, are you a socialist?

If you are, welcome to the club. I'm a socialist too. Although I'll continue to support socializing certain industries, I'm not on board with socializing faith. But keep trying to convince me, comrade, we all have our causes to advance.

I think you mean an ultra-right winger :confused:
Avi, I refer you to the UK, where they have State religion, and religious schools and churches receive government funding. {I don't really agree with that practice.} Would you call the UK ultra-right wing, or would you call it more socialist?
 
Avi, I refer you to the UK, where they have State religion, and religious schools and churches receive government funding.

Actually, SG, I was referring to Soleil, who CZ was asking if he is a socialist. I was speculating that he is an ultra-right winger :eek:

Having read this thread and some of Soleils others, as well as considering his views on homosexuality, my guess would be he is politically an ultra-right winger.

However, after seeing CZs subsequent post I realize that he did not mean it politically, but CZ meant it religiously. My comment was more a guess at Soleil's position on the political spectrum (you know I sometimes like to relate religion and politics :)).
 
THE MAYFLOWER COMPACT

In 1620 the Pilgrims, persecuted for conscience's sake, "braved the tempests of the vast and furious ocean and the terrors lurking in the American wilderness" to plant their State of Freedom. Even before landing they set up their government by a written Compact; the first charter of a government of the people, by the people and for the people known to history. In the cabin of the Mayflower humanity recovered its rights.

THE COMPACT

Signed in the Cabin of the "Mayflower" Nov. 11th,

Old Style, Nov. 21st, New Style, 1620

"In the name of God, amen. We whose names are underwritten, the loyall subjects of our dread soveraigne Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britaine, Franc and Ireland king, defender of the faith haveing undertaken for the glorie of God, and advancemente of the Christian faith, and honour of our king and countrie, a voyage to plant the first colonie in the northerne parts of Virginia, doe by these presents solemnly and mutualy in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves togeather into a civill body politick, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by verture hereof to enacte, constitute and frame such just and equall lawes, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meete and convenient for the general good of the colonie, unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cap-Codd the 11 of November, in the year of the raigne of our soveraigne lord, King James of England, Franc and Ireland the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. ANo Dom 1620."

John Carver
Edward Tilly
Degory Priest
William Bradford
John Tilly
Thomas Williams
Edward Winslow
Francis Cooke
Gilbert Winslow
William Brewster
Thomas Rogers
Edmond Margeson
Isasc Allerton
Thomas Tinker
Peter Brown
Myles Standish
John Rigdale
Richard Britteridge
John Alden
Edward Fuller
George Soule
Samuel Fuller
John Turner
Richard Clarke
Christopher Martin
Francis Eaton
Richard Gardiner
William Mullins
James Chilton
John Allerton
William White
John Crackston
Thomas English
Richard Warren
John Billington
Edward Doty
John Howland
Moses Fletcher
Edward Leister
Stephen Hopkins
John Goodman


This venerable document, the first American State paper.

Thus these men became the First Americans. They believed that God created all men equal; therefore, without other precedent; they made all men equal before the Law. Here was the birth of popular constitutional liberty, foreshadowing our Declaration of Independence and our American Constitution, which guarantees Freedom to all of us today. Tremendous suffering was endured as they grappled with the great unknown. Half their number perished in the struggle of that first terrible Winter. Under cover of darkness, the fast dwindling Company laid their dead; levelling the earth above them lest the Indians should learn how many were the graves.

"History records no nobler venture for Faith and Freedom than that of this Pilgrim band. In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and cold, they laid the foundation of a State wherein every man, through countless ages, should have liberty to worship God in his own way, in perpetuation and spreading, throughout the World, the lofty ideals of our Republic."

The "Mayflower" started with ninety-eight passengers; one was born on the voyage, and four joined them from the ship. Forty-one men signed the "Compact." There were twelve other men, twenty-two women, twenty boys, and eight girls in the company. In December, six died; in January, eight; in February, seventeen; in March, thirteen; making forty-four. Forty-four are believed to have left descendants

You do realize that this was only one colony. I would say that the colony of Providence more closely resembles the American ideal, imo. Please note that Roger Williams, the founder of this colonly, was persecuted in Plymouth, so he moved.
 
I don't doubt that even ultra-right wingers can have socialistic tendencies.But I really can't presume what Soleil's political leanings are. I'm hoping he/she will tell me how they feel, at least in this [socialized religion] matter.

Neither left-wing ideology nor right-wing ideology will work.The left-wing cannot do it, nor can the right-wing.

Humanism based on materialism is not good enough. It would be if God can be above it." When looking back at history, a God-centered ideology in Europe centered on the Vatican failed, and so do human-centered democracy.

The same is true for communism centered on materialism. "We need a system that combines God-centered ideology, humanism, and materialism?"

We need something God-centered that goes beyond something human. Humans alone cannot resolve problems. Humans will only fight among themselves.

After the human fall, God claimed Abel and Satan claimed Cain. During Jesus's crucifixion God claimed the thief on the right and Satan claimed the thief on the left.
Humanity never had parents. Adam and Eve became our fallen parents and Jesus could not marry and start God's family on earth.

This is why the children (us) are fighting endlessly.
 
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