Are you a Christian?

[shawn]

Not really ... just working from what he says — everyone acts out of self-interest.

Thomas

That is a primary motivation and I have seen and read and experienced nothing to see that it is anything different.
Christians for example (and I was one for over a decade so I can say what I like about it), are primarily into the christian trip as they do not wish to roast in hell.
They seek the reward of heaven and immortality in the better place.
How is that not self-interest?
How many christians do you think are christians for any other reason?
Why do people breath or eat or comb their hair, or blow their nose?
Self-interest.
Do unto others as you would......have them do unto you.
And how can you love another until you know how to love yourself?

 

[citizenzen]

Er ... I think I'd ask Sr Mary Catherine to read post 53 and then explain to me how I'm wrong?

Sister Mary Catherine is very upset that you're now trying to pass the blame for your transgression onto Shawn.

She's now been joined by Sister Catherine Mary and Sister Maria Katrina,
and they're going to teach you a painful lesson in self-responsibility.

 

[shawn]

LOL
That is just too funny CZ.
The sister pic is very fitting.

 

[immortalitylost]

Lol. Just thought I'd pop in, and what am I greeted with? Scary triplet nuns... bad orangutan! Bad!

 

[Thomas]

hey, Shawn —

Do me a favour and explain to citizenzen, please?

Thomas

 

[immortalitylost]

Seriously the self interest thing is a problem with most religion. With Christianity it's hell people do good to avoid. With religions that believe in karma it's either do goods so you can be reincarnated into a better life, or do good works to recieve good works upon yourself in this life. It's all self interest. Not to say that some people in all religions don't do good simply for good's sake.

Good is good in either case, yet good out of self interest seems tainted somehow to me. Especially doing good out of fear. That's just scary.

Think about it, what seems better to you? Helping an old lady across the street because you're afraid that you'll go to hell if you don't or you believe that you'll somehow get some good back because of the fact that you helped an old lady cross the street...

Or just helping an old lady across the street because she looks like she needs help and you know you can help her?

I say the latter is a better choice, even though both reasons for the action produce the same consequence. The old lady won't know. But you'll know.

Just a thought.

 

[shawn]

hey, Shawn —

Do me a favour and explain to citizenzen, please?

Thomas

explain what m8?

 

[wil]

Seriously the self interest thing is a problem with most religion. With Christianity it's hell people do good to avoid. With religions that believe in karma it's either do goods so you can be reincarnated into a better life, or do good works to recieve good works upon yourself in this life. It's all self interest. Not to say that some people in all religions don't do good simply for good's sake.

Isn't self interest a problem for humans that religions exploit?

 

[shawn]

If we humanize the ideologies of religion they seem quite self-interested as well, seeking new converts, trying to have dominion over the other upstart ideologies, arrogantly proclaiming that they are the end all, be all of all ideologies (world champs and all that).

 

[Thomas]

explain what m8?

That in your opinion self interest is the only motive to do good. Or explain to me if I've read you wrong?

He seems to be under the impression that acting out of self-interest is an accusation I'm making against you.

Thomas

 

[immortalitylost]

Isn't self interest a problem for humans that religions exploit?

Quite true, exactly. That's what I meant to say. Thou art wise to discern it, my friend.

 

[Thomas]

Seriously the self interest thing is a problem with most religion. With Christianity it's hell people do good to avoid...

Of course kids in Catholic schools were terrorised by nuns with the idea of 'He can see you, you know!' and that doesn't help at all ... but I think to say that all Christians are motivated by the fear, not love, is over-stating the case. Hasn't stopped them leaving the Church, and to say the only ones left are the ones who fear hell is a bit of a stretch ...

It's all self interest. Not to say that some people in all religions don't do good simply for good's sake.

Then again, what's wrong with self-interest that does not interfere with the freedom of another. basic human instincts are self-interest ... the will to live, etc. It's the reduction of everything to utilitarianism and pragmatism that I believe is essentially dehumanising. I know that's the way secular culture wants us to see ourselves, but that's why my 'self interest' doesn't like what secularism offers me ... I think human nature does possess and inherent dignity of being. To be human is more than to be a spoon-fed addict.

Think about it, what seems better to you? Helping an old lady across the street because you're afraid that you'll go to hell if you don't or you believe that you'll somehow get some good back because of the fact that you helped an old lady cross the street...

Exactly. This is the point Aquinas made — to give alms to the poor so to be seen to be philanthropic is not philanthropy, it's vanity.

Or just helping an old lady across the street because she looks like she needs help and you know you can help her?
I say the latter is a better choice, even though both reasons for the action produce the same consequence. The old lady won't know. But you'll know.

And I agree.

Christ offers an even tougher example. Love your neighbour. The point he made was there's no virtue in loving the people we like ... it's loving the people who hate us that's the test ... so in this context he's saying loving someone out of self-interest doesn't cut it ... the real love is in loving someone who does not serve your self-interest at all, quite the reverse ...

... In fact, that's what the Sermon on the Mount is all about. (Matthew 5)

I would agree however, that the 'rationalising' of Christianity since the Enlightenment has resulted in a kind of humanism-with-Jesus-tagged-on ... that's not what Christianity is at all, and nor is the 'nationalising' of Christianity that manifests itself so vociferously in the politics of the US — so I can understand how non-Christians can assume Christianity to be self-serving and motivated by self-interest if all they see is the noisy media political type.

Of course, the real Christians in the US, as elsewhere, are quietly getting on with it, out of the media, out of the spotlight.

Thomas

 

[immortalitylost]

Oh, I by no means meant that all Christians do good only out of a fear of going to hell.

I was just saying, as you did, that doing good out of fear or for self serving reasons is not a good way to go. Christianity as a whole does great good in this world, and most of it out of a simple desire to do good. People that truly follow the message of Christ.

But the way some churches hang hell over people's heads, I most certainly don't agree with. That's terrible, and doesn't help anything. Good works done out of fear just aren't as good...

I wasn't trying to start an argument.

 

[citizenzen]

The following is an overly exhaustive rehashing of this thread in order to explain to Thomas why he needs to have his knuckles rapped by Sister Mary Catherine.

Let's start from the beginning. The posts have been excerpted to get to the heart of the matter. The full post can be found by clicking the linked name. Now for the testimony...

Shawn - I think that people can learn how to be good people from pretty much any religion, so I don't really knock them as that is a good thing, but people get all dogmatic about their beliefs and insist that they alone have the truth.

Thomas - That's not what I'm saying ... humans do good because they want to, they choose to ... but that is purely a humanist ethic. My point is that GK is saying that whatever good they do is meaningless in terms of God and salvation.

Shawn - Even christians do the good they do from the motives in their heart and the choices they make are their own, so they are humanists and in general good people, so good humanists.

Thomas - Indeed they are good humanists ... but then so is God ... the reason why they act as good humanists is that their works are not directed towards the glory of man, but the glory of God.

Shawn - This is semantical misdirection. People either act noble or they do not. "For the glory of God", has a very nice ring to it, but it means naught.

It all has to do with harmony. If you act appropriately in whatever circumstance it is like a musician playing the right note at the right time. It is in accord with the harmony of existence.

Thomas - Nonsense. It ["For the glory of God"] has a meaning if you believe in God, it doesn't if you don't.

Shawn - People act from self interest. Even if they lay their lives down for someone or something, it has its root in the ideology which they cherish.

Thomas - But this is besides the point. Because you are motivated only be self-interest, what right have you to assume everyone else does the same?​

It is in your last quote Thomas where your transgression lies. You make the leap from Shawn's assertion that people act from self interest to making the absolute assertion that Shawn is motivated "only" out of self interest.

I think it's safe to say that most normal people do act out of self interest. That is just human nature. But people are also capable of moments of selflessness. It is not uncommon for people to act with empathy or compassion and the cultivation of these behaviors or attitudes is one of the finest qualities humans possess.

For you to leap to claim that Shawn is motivated only by self interest denies this quality in him. Not knowing Shawn intimately, that is a leap you cannot rationally take. I think... I mean Sister Mary Catherine thinks that in the cold impersonal world of internet forums that it's important to remember that we don't really know the people we're communicating with and that we need to be careful when denying their humanity.

This is why you are being asked to roll up your sleeves and present your hand. You need to learn your lesson young man.

 

[shawn]

CZ:
I think it's safe to say that most normal people do act out of self interest. That is just human nature. But people are also capable of moments of selflessness. It is not uncommon for people to act with empathy or compassion and the cultivation of these behaviors or attitudes is one of the finest qualities humans possess.

I am in complete agreement with this statement.
But I would add that all people do almost everything they do, both good and bad, from self interest.
It is the prime motivator.
But there are rare moments of selflessness which I agree is some of humanities better moments.

I admit that my motives for being here are self-interest motivated as :
1-I like to talk about these kinds of things, but get little opportunity in my daily life to do so;
2-I have enjoyed meeting the people who populate these places, even the ones I don't see eye to eye on (well most of them), as they seem to have pretty sharp minds (for the most part) so I can sharpen my rhetoric up a bit (at the very least keep things from rusting up);
3-I have even learned a few things I wasn't aware of (which is pretty cool)

So my reasons are pretty selfish, but they are not bad reasons (at least to me they don't seem bad).

 

[immortalitylost]

I think Thomas was using the argument "Just because you think this way doesn't mean that everyone does," With the context being self-interest.

I don't agree with Thomas, as I cannot, not knowing you, but also cannot because few humans do all good works out of pure self interest all the time so I see Thomas saying that you do as purely the heated nature of the discussion showing through in his words. And turnin them inta fightin words. LOL.

And yes, I agree, report directly to Sister Mary Catherine, Thomas.

Sorry, every time I type your name I picture my kitty... You share monikers.

 

[Thomas]

It is in your last quote Thomas where your transgression lies.

I don't think so. As I see it, Shawn's affirmation is that people are only motivated by self interest:

But since you bring it up, Yes, I posit that, say, everyone who is here on this site is here for reasons of self interest.
Further, that all good that people have done, in fact, every act that humans have committed (other than accidents) have been done (at the root of the impulse of the action) from reasons of self-interest.

You make the leap from Shawn's assertion that people act from self interest to making the absolute assertion that Shawn is motivated "only" out of self interest.

No, I draw the logical conclusion that Shawn is here out of self-interest, because it's a self-declared statement in the above post.

I think it's safe to say that most normal people do act out of self interest. That is just human nature. But people are also capable of moments of selflessness. It is not uncommon for people to act with empathy or compassion and the cultivation of these behaviors or attitudes is one of the finest qualities humans possess.

And I quite agree ... but 'most normal people' is not all people, nor all of the time, therefore the absolute nature statement of Shawn's statement is false, and should be refuted.

For you to leap to claim that Shawn is motivated only by self interest denies this quality in him...

It's Shawn's self-declaration, not my claim. I'm just responding to it. In fact, my request to Shawn to explain his position to you assumes he is not motivated solely by self interest.

Thomas

 

[citizenzen]

I don't think so. As I see it, Shawn's affirmation is that people are only motivated by self interest:

At that point in the conversation his statement was not an absolute.

He could have well said...

"People are motivated by money."

"People are motivated by sex."

Both of these statement have some truth. Neither states that it is the only motivation, just that it is a motivation. You are adding the word "only" where it did not necessarily exist.

 

[shawn]

One may say that their reasons for being on a forum such as this (for example) are selfless, but this is not true.
Everyone is here for reasons of self interest.
That is the primary impulse.
That may not have been what I was getting at earlier on in this thread, but the wind kind of blew things in this direction.

Now that we are on this issue, even selfless acts are often motivated by self-interest, say one will lay their life down for a friend, or even more nobly for a stranger. Many will say this is the epitome of selflessness, but if one has accepted that love for others is their chief ideology then they will act on such notions.
So if one has such values and cherishes them then what looks selfless is really selfish as one's values have been redirected to a higher set of values which are important to that person (consciousness).
I see people as consciousness which possesses a body not as a body which possesses consciousness, which may help the critical reader see why I say the things I do.

 

[immortalitylost]

Well if they're doing it for those ideals then it is self interest, but not the selfish kind of self interest. Like do good so you will have good or won't go to hell.

Self interest isn't always bad. Selfishness is tho. Just part of the human condition, but not one of the best parts.