Are you a Christian?

What is unChristian about hope for all people?
My point was, and I am willing to see that I read you wrong, that your utterly negative view of human nature is without hope ... and Christ did not come here to inform us how utterly useless any endeavour on our part is.

Read Matthew 20 — The Parable of the Vineyard:
"And he said to them: Go you also into my vineyard, and I will give you what shall be just." Matthew 20:4
That's what a Christian is, a labourer in the vineyard. Now if you're telling me that my efforts in the vineyard are worth nothing, then that makes a mockery of Scripture, it seems to me.

Read Matthew 13 — The Parable of the Sower:
"And others (seeds) fell upon good ground: and they brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, and some thirtyfold." 13:8

"But he that received the seed upon good ground, is he that heareth the word, and understandeth, and beareth fruit, and yieldeth the one an hundredfold, and another sixty, and another thirty." 13:23

I would suggest that 'and beareth fruit' is good works — and it seems to me you're saying no man can do good works.

Me? I believe there are many a "good and faithful servant" out there doing God's work, and dare I say it, in whom He is well pleased ... and I'd go so far to say they pass through this life without a ripple, without notice ... how would you know? And if you don't know, what gives you the right to condemn every Christian in such an offhand manner.

Thomas
 
My point was, and I am willing to see that I read you wrong, that your utterly negative view of human nature is without hope ... and Christ did not come here to inform us how utterly useless any endeavour on our part is.

We have nothing but hope, Thomas. Our hope is in Christ. Yes, My view of humanity is that we are damaged goods - We are 'tainted', but that doesn't mean that we cannot change.

Read Matthew 20 — The Parable of the Vineyard:
"And he said to them: Go you also into my vineyard, and I will give you what shall be just." Matthew 20:4
That's what a Christian is, a labourer in the vineyard. Now if you're telling me that my efforts in the vineyard are worth nothing, then that makes a mockery of Scripture, it seems to me.
Your efforts just aren't worth anymore than anyone elses. What YOU do in the vinyard, Christ enables you to do, so we really shouldn't get caught up in our works, or we will end up boasting, and pride will take hold, which is never a good thing. [imo]

Read Matthew 13 — The Parable of the Sower:
"And others (seeds) fell upon good ground: and they brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, and some thirtyfold." 13:8

"But he that received the seed upon good ground, is he that heareth the word, and understandeth, and beareth fruit, and yieldeth the one an hundredfold, and another sixty, and another thirty." 13:23

I would suggest that 'and beareth fruit' is good works — and it seems to me you're saying no man can do good works.
I'm saying that we will bear fruit naturally once Christ makes his dwelling in us. It is not of our own doing but something that happens once Christ changes us from the inside out. I have a lot to say on this parable, but I won't go into it here. Maybe in another thread, eh?

Me? I believe there are many a "good and faithful servant" out there doing God's work, and dare I say it, in whom He is well pleased ... and I'd go so far to say they pass through this life without a ripple, without notice ... how would you know? And if you don't know, what gives you the right to condemn every Christian in such an offhand manner.

Thomas
I'm not condemning anyone, lol. My view is that all will be saved in the end. I'm merely suggesting that no one truly follows Christ, but that's ok because one day He will burn away the chaff from within us, and we WILL honor Him as we ought. *Every knee will bow*

GK
 
The way I see it, Jesus is not exactly a placebo. Why? Because the separation between the Divine and human beings is (of course!) in our minds. Where else would it be?

However, that does not make it any less real. Many mental illnesses are also in our minds, but we still need treatment.

Christ is the treatment for the condition humans face of feeling separateness from the Divine. In a way, it is a placebo because I also do not believe that it originates from a "real" condition created by God. That is, people are not really separated from God. But, because they think they are and experience this emotionally (and because this is related to various other human conditions), the experience of separateness and its anguish is still real.
 
Well we'll have to agree to disagree.

What you're effectively saying is no-one loves God. At all. Not in the slightest ... or if they do, it's hopeless anyway, because their love is not enough to inspire them to do good works for His sake.

And we're all saved anyway ... so why bother?

I mean, why don't we agree that God should stop bothering us, we'll stop bothering God...

In fact, why not just forget about God altogether, and have a good time, get the best out of this life we can, and screw anyone (in every sense) who crosses our path?

Thomas
 
that sounds nieztchien, 'G#d is dead'; and lets face it, in Europe at least, it's a popular belief now flamed by the likes of Dawkins and other anti theists and all the younger generations who believe in the 'power' of science to give us answers to all of lifes questions, since as far as these folk are concerned G#d is now an outmoded concept, an invisible non existent defunct entity taken over by scientism and the 'will to power' of individuals. You're wrong in thinking that folk will screw others though through lack of sanction or relationship with a [personal] diety, morals and ethical behaviour are ingrained into the structure of societies in this day and age and we are all mirrors to each other; those with a lack of conscience will screw anyway and always have done.
 
In reguards to Thomas's post... (too lazy to do the quote thingie)

Humanity would stop doing good without the impetus of hellfire to scare them into it?
That's a sad thought. You're really a glass half empty kinda person, eh? :p

I agree with nativeastral. People do bad no matter what. But they also do good. People that do not follow the Christian faith do good everyday just for good's sake.

God created us all. And made all of the differences in the world. All schools of thought. In my mind there is reason behind that. In my mind, we aren't just infants groping around in the dark with only one way to find salvation, or truth, or light.

God created everyone. Why would he just throw most of his creation away? What purpose would there be in that?

I understand your beliefs, and our difference in beliefs.

Just putting my beliefs out there. :)
 
disinterested observer: GK or PoO?

s.

Sorry all – reply to GK.

If man is as helpless and hopeless — in that there is no hope to be found in himself, but only in God to whom man's works count for nothing — the he is abandoned by Christ, until He dies, at which point he is scooped up, as it were, which I dispute.

Nor do I see any dimension of the Holy Spirit at work.

In the Christian Tradition, the Holy Spirit leads to the Son, and the Son to the Father ... however it seems to me in GK's view there is no dynamic engagement or interaction between creature and Creator. Might be reading it wrong, but I don't think so.

I'm certainly not a Pelagian preaching salvation by one's own effort, as I said, without Christ we can do nothing — but I do believe that with Christ we can do something. We might fail, and indeed no man is without sin, but to say that there is no degree between the most craven sinner and the most generous saint makes the entire Bible a meaningless document. If the human situation is so helpless, what's the point of even trying?

Thomas
 
In reguards to Thomas's post... (too lazy to do the quote thingie)

Humanity would stop doing good without the impetus of hellfire to scare them into it?
That's a sad thought. You're really a glass half empty kinda person, eh? :p
That's not what I'm saying ... humans do good because they want to, they choose to ... but that is purely a humanist ethic. My point is that GK is saying that whatever good they do is meaningless in terms of God and salvation.

It seems to me GK's message is: If a man wants to do good for good's sake ... fine; if he wants to do good for God's sake, he's kidding himself.

Actually I'm a glass brim full kind of person ... that's why I'm Catholic, it's the most optimistic religion out there, in my book.

I agree with nativeastral. People do bad no matter what. But they also do good. People that do not follow the Christian faith do good everyday just for good's sake.
I quite agree. But Christianity is not about doing good ... Christianity is about manifesting the Deity is visibly and tangibly present in the world for those who seek union in this life as well as the next. It's transformative of man, and the world. It's about expressing the will of the Creator that He chooses the most intimate association with His creature, an idea expressed in the terms of 'sonship' or filial adoption, or, as the ancients say, theosis — 'God became man that man might become God'

God took on a human nature and thus sacralises it. The Cross is the way of transcendence, the Resurrection signifies ... a metanature? ... this is the point I think most often overlooked.

People assume it by pantheism, or panentheism (which is not a viable proposition within the Christian paradigm) which presupposes human nature is divine ... the question then being, if the divine is inviolate, how does a divine nature not know itself?

God created us all. And made all of the differences in the world. All schools of thought.
Then man cannot think for himself? His idea of a rational nature is a mistaken one?

God created everyone. Why would he just throw most of his creation away? What purpose would there be in that?
Who said He threw His creation away? The Abrahamic paradigm is that man threw away the gift offered him.

As I said, salvation is open to all ... Christianity offers man the chance to co-operate (not as equal, but as worker) in that act.

Thomas
 
That's not what I'm saying ... humans do good because they want to, they choose to ... but that is purely a humanist ethic.
Even christians do the good they do from the motives in their heart and the choices they make are their own, so they are humanists and in general good people, so good humanists.
This line about how it is christ doing it for one is poppycock.
Every one makes their own way through life.
 
Even christians do the good they do from the motives in their heart and the choices they make are their own, so they are humanists and in general good people, so good humanists.
Indeed they are good humanists ... but then so is God ... the reason why they act as good humanists is that their works are not directed towards the glory of man, but the glory of God.

This line about how it is christ doing it for one is poppycock.
Every one makes their own way through life.
Yes they do ... but if that life is directed towards something other than the self, then the attainment of that ideal must lie in the nature of what is aspired to, otherwise the ideal is unattainable.

So the Christian ideal is unattainable to a human nature, even a perfect human nature, because what is offered is incorporation into the Divine Nature, something only attainable by invitation ... a perfect person is not God, nor is a perfect nature divine ... Only the Divine Itself is divine.

The humanist is motivated by the love of human nature.
The Christian is motivated by the love of Divine nature.
The Christian loves all nature, because all nature is the gift of the Divine.
"In him we live and move and have our being" (St Paul, quoting Epiphemides).
The humanist would deny that ... and in so doing, for all his good, denies God ... he denies what we believe, that despite all our faults, we are called to be temples of God.

Thomas
 
Sorry all – reply to GK.

If man is as helpless and hopeless — in that there is no hope to be found in himself, but only in God to whom man's works count for nothing — the he is abandoned by Christ, until He dies, at which point he is scooped up, as it were, which I dispute.

That's not what I said, nor what I believe Thomas. I said mankind are like "damaged goods", but Christ does not abandon any of us. He dwells within us all. It is Christ who moves us to be better peoples. It is not of our own doing, but it is rather Him/His Spirit that changes us from the inside out. The problem is that some have become calloused and seem to hate the light He shines on us. Many disregard His influence and suffer as a result of their negligence. We produce good works, or fruits naturally once we learn to recognize and embrace His influence on us.

Nor do I see any dimension of the Holy Spirit at work.
Then you are missing what I'm suggesting altogether - It's all Christ/All Spirit. Nothing we do worthy of Christ's name comes from us, but it rather comes from from Him/His Spirit. Our good works are a natural product of Christ living in us.

In the Christian Tradition, the Holy Spirit leads to the Son, and the Son to the Father ... however it seems to me in GK's view there is no dynamic engagement or interaction between creature and Creator. Might be reading it wrong, but I don't think so.
See above

I'm certainly not a Pelagian preaching salvation by one's own effort, as I said, without Christ we can do nothing — but I do believe that with Christ we can do something. We might fail, and indeed no man is without sin, but to say that there is no degree between the most craven sinner and the most generous saint makes the entire Bible a meaningless document. If the human situation is so helpless, what's the point of even trying?

Thomas
The only difference between the "most craven sinner and the most generous saint" is ones ability and willingness to recognize the light of Christ, and ones willingness to allow His Spirit to take over in their life. We are essentially the same - We are damaged goods, but Christ WILL make the change He desires in us all. Be it in the now, or the hereafter. *Every knee will bow*

Look at the parable of the sower: Some people have been fortunate enough that they have been developed into 'good ground' in this life, while others have not. The different types of ground represent different stages in our lives. It takes time and patience to develop in us a receiving heart. Even then, it's not what we have done, but rather what we have allowed Christ to do for us ...

GK
 
Indeed they are good humanists ... but then so is God ... the reason why they act as good humanists is that their works are not directed towards the glory of man, but the glory of God.
Thomas
This is semantical misdirection.
People either act noble
or they do not.
"For the glory of God", has a very nice ring to it, but it means naught.
It all has to do with harmony.
If you act appropriately in whatever circumstance it is like a musician playing the right note at the right time.
It is in accord with the harmony of existence.
Or people can act discordant.
All the rest of these notions people come up with is just over-dramatization of simple things.
It is the right thing to do to help another rather than to harm them.*
WHY?
It just is.
Why do such obvious things need all these useless explanations?
One must be mentally ill to need an explanation for the above.(*)
 
Even christians do the good they do from the motives in their heart and the choices they make are their own, so they are humanists and in general good people, so good humanists.
This line about how it is christ doing it for one is poppycock.
Every one makes their own way through life.

Christ is a literary construct that is meant as a tribute to what many consider to be a noble and honourable man. He is a legend. When people talk about "becoming Christ" or realising the "Christ in you," it is the recognition and understanding that what Christ achieved is within reach of every human being. All it requires is courage, resolve and mettle. It is actually not so hard to be or to be like Christ. We simply make excuses why we cannot be like him. This is why there is still so much poverty and injustice in the world. It's because we are too weak.

It's like what Yoda says to Luke Skywalker in Star Wars, "Don't try, just do."

This is semantical misdirection.
People either act noble or they do not.
"For the glory of God", has a very nice ring to it, but it means naught.
It all has to do with harmony.
.........
All the rest of these notions people come up with is just over-dramatization of simple things.

Heroics and adventurism is deeply entrenched in the story of Jesus Christ, the story of Christ, the story of Christianity. That's what you will find in the New Testament. That piece of literature is full of heroics and adventurism. Heroics and adventurism has always been a part of the mental framework of Christianity. A deeply nagging problem, however, is that many people overlook the existence of this mental and literary framework of heroics and adventurism and don't realise that not everybody cares about the heroics and adventure of Christianity. They want to know about the practical value of Christianity in the contemporary world. They don't want to hear stories about the heroes and legends of Christianity, of words and concepts that refer to an otherworldly reality.

When asked about Christianity, the response of many Christians is to define their devotion in terms of these heroics when it is of no interest to the person asking the question.

I believe that it is possible to express one's devotion to Christianity without reference to such heroics and adventurism. If these heroics and adventurisms are just a mental framework and literary construct, we must be able to express our devotion in completely different terms. We must be able to create new literary constructs to describe the same story. But if we can achieve that, we must also be able to discard the mental framework and literary constructs we have become so accustomed to in Christianity.

Why do such obvious things need all these useless explanations? One must be mentally ill to need an explanation for the above.(*)

Some people like heroics and adventure. It is what keeps us going each day, to think that we are heroes on a quest to prove or discover something noble in ourselves or engaging in some cosmic struggle.

The question of what constitutes a "mental illness" at this point in this discussion to me is a matter of opinion (unless you can meaningfully define what you mean by "mental illness"). If you want me to describe my experience of the term "mental illness," it is most often used to describe individuals whose behaviour, thinking or perception of "reality" differs significantly from the social norm, to an extent where they cannot function or communicate meaningfully or purposefully with the average individual in society. In these situations, "illness" in the term "mental illness" seems to have nothing to do with having a so-called "illness" but judging people on their ability to relate meaningfully among others in the same society or community.

When people become overly obsessed with heroics and adventurism, I don't consider that a "mental illness." It's more like a social disorder.

The term "mental illness" to me is much like a propaganda term used to achieve social hegemony. It's like a form of racism. "Mental illness" is used often by people who are trying to label someone as inferior, diseased or as functioning on a subhuman level. It's like you're saying to someone that they are not functioning at full capacity. They're malfunctioning. They're defective.

You're criticising people for being obsessed with heroics and adventurism. Heroes and legends are ideas, so this is an "ideological racism." It's a racism of ideas. You're devaluing someone's ideas, discrediting them, deeming those people less important in society and effectively creating "virtual social classes" in your mind.

I wonder who is the one suffering from a "mental illness" here.:eek::rolleyes:
 
You're criticising people for being obsessed with heroics and adventurism. Heroes and legends are ideas, so this is an "ideological racism." It's a racism of ideas. You're devaluing someone's ideas, discrediting them, deeming those people less important in society and effectively creating "virtual social classes" in your mind.

Actually, I don't think Shawn is criticizing people or devaluing ideas. He is merely pointing out that goodness, selflessness, empathy and compassion are natural human behaviors and do not require God or religion to be realized or exercised. That seems to be a point of contention with some Christians. He is attempting to broaden their outlook on the matter.

Sounds pretty sane to me.
 
Actually, I don't think Shawn is criticizing people or devaluing ideas. He is merely pointing out that goodness, selflessness, empathy and compassion are natural human behaviors and do not require God or religion to be realized or exercised. That seems to be a point of contention with some Christians. He is attempting to broaden their outlook on the matter.

Sounds pretty sane to me.
Paul refers to this as God having written the law on their hearts in Romans 2:15 and Hebrews 8
 
Paul refers to this as God having written the law on their hearts in Romans 2:15 and Hebrews 8

Oh. Well if Paul said it then it must be true.

I take it all back. Before Jesus there was never an ounce of goodness, selflessness, compassion or empathy in any human being who ever existed on Earth.

Not one ounce.

Really.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
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