Jesus is not God....part 2

pattimax said:
He's in there, it's right at the beginning.
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Then you should be able to find the word "Jesus" there, where is it? I have checked all the versions available in Bible Gateway and Crosswalk and am unable to find it. I have even checked my Jewish Publication Society translation, figuring that the original-language-people might have some insight or version that I lacked.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mens_sana
Hi, and thanks for the welcome.

Yes, some Christian scholars consider Ha-Adam to be a type of Messiah. However, the Jews do not — and they are the ones that wrote the book, all the way from Genesis to Chronicles (Hebrew Bible order)...


Quahom1 said:
Which can be shown to have been taken in great deal from the Zoarastrian writings of Persia...
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That looks like a red herring to me. Where are those citations you claimed that show both Jesus and the Word in Genesis?
 
mens_sana said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mens_sana
Hi, and thanks for the welcome.

Yes, some Christian scholars consider Ha-Adam to be a type of Messiah. However, the Jews do not — and they are the ones that wrote the book, all the way from Genesis to Chronicles (Hebrew Bible order)...




That looks like a red herring to me. Where are those citations you claimed that show both Jesus and the Word in Genesis?
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You got me mens. God "said"...as in "spoke" as in, expressed "word"...but that must be far too great a stretch.
 
mens_sana said:
Nope, ambiguous terminology won't hack it either. There is a difference between "Word" and "word." You claimed that both "Jesus" and later, the "Word" could be found in Genesis. Where are these "words"?
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Works just fine for me. To have "said" is to speak a word. With John clearing things up, makes all the more sense.

There was God, there was the Holy Spirit hovering over, then God "said" (spoke the word).
 
mens_sana said:
Then you should be able to find the word "Jesus" there, where is it? I have checked all the versions available in Bible Gateway and Crosswalk and am unable to find it. I have even checked my Jewish Publication Society translation, figuring that the original-language-people might have some insight or version that I lacked.
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In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:1
 
If Jesus were really God, he could make this pin bigger...
If Jesus is not God, then I have really wasted a lot of time! If I am to have hope, then I must believe the whole story, not just the parts of it that make sense to me. If I try to make God conform to my wisdom, then I am making God in my own image.

I believe that Jesus was 100% God, and 100% human, even though that makes no sense, because to believe otherwise means that salvation and eternal life makes no sense, and on this do I hang my hope.

If He were really God, He could have gotten Himself down off that cross...
Has anyone seen "The Last Temptation of Christ"? Probably deserves a new thread..........
 
Xavier Breath said:
If Jesus were really God, he could make this pin bigger...
If Jesus is not God, then I have really wasted a lot of time! If I am to have hope, then I must believe the whole story, not just the parts of it that make sense to me. If I try to make God conform to my wisdom, then I am making God in my own image.

I believe that Jesus was 100% God, and 100% human, even though that makes no sense, because to believe otherwise means that salvation and eternal life makes no sense, and on this do I hang my hope.

If He were really God, He could have gotten Himself down off that cross...
Has anyone seen "The Last Temptation of Christ"? Probably deserves a new thread..........
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Then the head of a pin is too big, and there is room in excess for all on the surface.
 
Ahanu said:
. . .since most scholars agree that Titus was not written by Paul, and that he never mentioned that Christ was God, I might end up changing opinion! Scriptures can be used to support both arguments :)eek:).
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Would it help to know that the Bible scriptures are not inerrant?
 
Would it help to know that the Bible scriptures are not inerrant?
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Yes. For example, Paul did not write Titus, and he does not say Jesus was God, so it is a big deal.

Matthew 23:8-10 seems to contradict Titus 2:13 and John 20:28. It also depends on who is writing.

Why do you ask? I assume you have something in mind. . .
 
Ahanu said:
Yes. For example, Paul did not write Titus, and he does not say Jesus was God, so it is a big deal.

Matthew 23:8-10 seems to contradict Titus 2:13 and John 20:28. It also depends on who is writing.

Why do you ask? I assume you have something in mind. . .
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Matthew is writing about Jesus' teaching to follow Him. (pre-resurrection)

The book of Titus deals with following Jesus.
(post-resurrection)

The part you point out in John deals with the resurrection. (during :p)
 
Sean H. said:
Care to give a quote??

I'm not sure that they do. In fact I've never heard of this before, care to give some quotes?

Dear Bruce, I've never heard of any religion (except Hinduism to a very limited degree) being associated with a Zodiac and definitely not Christianity. I'm not weighed down by dogma at all. (there is no dogma in my religion)
I think that Jesus is God made flesh too, just not literally, and indeed it was a changing point in time for humanity. :cool:
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Dear Sean,
I started a new thread for you :
http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/zarathustras-prophecy-8526.html


As to relating Christ to the Sun- I have read that some early Church Fathers did do this as a means of teaching. Just like they used the clover to teach the Trinity.

This would have been very effective for many peoples- like the Druids. And the followers of Mithras- whose birthday was December 25th.
Here are the similarities:
Similarities between Mithra and Christ

I found a book on the subject:
Amazon.com: Jesus Christ, Sun of God: Ancient Cosmology and Early Christian Symbolism: Books: David Fideler

As to the Zodiac- in one of Professor Francis Yates' books their are some photos of paintings with astrological themes that are in the Vatican apartments.

Here are some more pictures:
Dr. Turi.com

Astrology was popular in the early church- the Vatican has a large collection of books in its library.

God%20n%20Zodiac%202.jpg

The Twelve Disciples have also been given astrological designations- we can see their gestures in th Leonardo's Last Supper.

Also the Twelve Tribes of Israel and Twelve Knights of the Round Table (Zodiac).

God Bless,
Br.Bruce
 
Operacast said:
Now that really intrigues me. Could you please describe some of your study of the pre-Christian religions that facilitated these new perspectives?

Many thanks,

Operacast
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Greetings Operacast,

A lot of research in the past has come to the conclusion that Christianity is a Solar Myth. There was even a book in German that had Zodiac signs on sections of the Gospel of Mark showing how there are three revolutions in that account.

You can read more here:


Christianity as Mystical Fact by Rudolf Steiner

I have a book entitled "Pagan Christs" and when I put that term into Google it came up with over 5000 hits.

There are many correspondences given in Blavatsky's Isis Unveiled and Secret Doctrine.
Pagan Christs:
Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth

So you can come to one of two conclusions - that Christianity has just borrowed from past Solar Myths or that the Christ event was a fulfillment of past Mysteries played out on the stage of human history.

Mithras and Christ:
Similarities between Mithra and Christ

There are many past religious themes that deal with death and resurrection. There is one I remember where a human figure is taken to the water (sea or lake) and left in there for three days and then taken out. I think they put grass seeds in it which then spring into life.

Vishvakarma- the Divine Architect from the Rig Veda has a crown of thorns....

I really could go on and on here, for there are reams of information.

-Br.Bruce
 
Matthew is writing about Jesus' teaching to follow Him. (pre-resurrection)

The book of Titus deals with following Jesus.
(post-resurrection)

The part you point out in John deals with the resurrection. (during :p)
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Thanks. That verse along with some other versus from Matthew seem to support the view that Jesus is not God (Matthew 26: 39;24: 36;17: 5).
 
Kindest Regards, mens_sana!

mens_sana said:
Do you know the terms "exegesis" and "eisegesis"?
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No, it is not a term I am familiar with, therefore...

Eisegesis (from the Greek εἰσηγεῖσθαι; 'to lead in') is the process of interpretation of an existing text in such a way as to introduce one's own ideas. This is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis draws out the meaning from the text, eisegesis occurs when a reader reads his/her interpretation into the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective. An individual who practices eisegesis is known as an eisegete, as someone who practices exegesis is known as an exegete. The term eisegete is often used in a mildly derogatory fashion.
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Eisegesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

which continues:

While exegesis attempts to determine the historical context within which a particular verse exists - the so-called "Sitz im Leben" or life setting - eisegetes often neglect this aspect of biblical study.

Exactly what constitutes eisegesis remains a source of debate among theologians, but most scholars agree about the importance of determining the authorial intentions. Still, to determine the author's intent can often be difficult, especially for books which were written anonymously.
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If I may call attention to the point above, "exactly what constitutes eisegesis remains a source of debate among theologians." By these terms, one could potentially say the same of your own view, could they not? All interpretations, including those most noble efforts towards exegesis, are still tainted by the potential tint of the interpreter's viewpoint. And if that particular interpreter is a stooge beholding to one or other political power? Then even claims of exegesis will not make it so.

mens_sana said:
Yes, some Christian scholars consider Ha-Adam to be a type of Messiah. However, the Jews do not — and they are the ones that wrote the book, all the way from Genesis to Chronicles (Hebrew Bible order).
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I understand the Old Testament is a Jewish text, but are you rightly qualified to speak of Jewish points of view? Are you a practising Jew?

mens_sana said:
When the Christian scholars find the Ha-Adam type, they are using eisegesis. Which practice do you think comes closer to the intention of the author?
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Perhaps you are correct. Perhaps not. Such is the struggle with prophecy and fulfillment.
 
Ahanu said:
Thanks. That verse along with some other versus from Matthew seem to support the view that Jesus is not God (Matthew 26: 39;24: 36;17: 5).
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Greetings Ahanu,
Matthew 17:5 has been altered. I have posted some of the historical facts on that.

For an understanding of the Logos from the Hindu perspective I recommend:

Philosophy of the Bhagavad Gita by T. Subba Row

We will not truly understand the Christian Mystery in full until the end of the Earth ages. Obviously then, we need ongoing revelation (and we do!- Thank God!).

Christians now and in the past have used the prologue of St. John (up to "full of Grace and Truth") as a meditation, to arrive at great personal revelations. There is a living Spiritual Truth there.

Indeed, even Muslims, Buddhists and others will meet the Christ Being (some will not know Him by that name however).

geometer.jpg


Some beautiful poetry from T.L. Harris:-

Greater or lesser he appears by turns,
As men are great or small;
His Image in refulgent Helios burns,
And in the dewdrop’s ball;
The tide-waves of the constellations toss
About His great white Throne;
Yet as a Child He met the Planet’s loss,
And bore its griefs alone.

In Christ,
Br.Bruce
 
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