so whats Hell Like ?

[GlorytoGod]

In terms of Abrahamic faiths what is Hell like, and what is the scriptural basis for it ?

 

[wil]

In terms of Abrahamic faiths in my understanding the Jews do not believe in an afterlife that includes hell, and they wrote the book.

In my understanding, hell is a choice, many of us are living in it now, whilst others sitting next to them on the bus are in heaven...choice, perception, free will.

 

[lunamoth]

Hell is being apart from God.

 

[Tao_Equus]

I think Abraham only did the Smurf song. By the looks of this though, and if you get rock'nroll like this in hell, well then hell aint a bad place to be..
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[GlorytoGod]

In terms of Abrahamic faiths in my understanding the Jews do not believe in an afterlife that includes hell, and they wrote the book.

was Mohamed a Jew ?

 

[GlorytoGod]

Hell is being apart from God.

what is the scriptural basis for that statement ?

 

[GlorytoGod]

we can keep this thread on track please.

in other words no "new age", "unity" or "zen" proselytizing please, this is the Abrahamic section

 

[wil]

was Mohamed a Jew ?

No, but the New Testament and Koranic implications and understandings of Hell tend to refer back to or gather their impetus from Old Testament, ie Jewish text. Both the Koran and the Bible have as their foundation the Old testament.

we can keep this thread on track please.

in other words no "new age", "unity" or "zen" proselytizing please, this is the Abrahamic section

???

 

[path_of_one]

G2G- Zen and new age have nothing to do with hell, so I am not sure where that comes from. Unity is a part of some Christian churches.

As for hell, I agree with Lunamoth and, like Wil, I believe we choose whether we remain separate from God or embrace God.

The Jews do not believe in a hell that is like the modern Christian variant. This is useful:
Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife
My Jewish Learning: Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition

Gehenna, translated as "hell," in the New Testament, was actually a real place during Jesus' time and was used as a metaphorical reference to an afterlife of a person who had not followed after God.
Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hell got really interesting during the Middle Ages, when priests began frequently and elaborately embellishing on the concept. Part of the reason was that hair-raising sermons on hell were similar to our modern-day horror movies. It got butts in the pews and was entertaining. Read Dante's Inferno and you have a good idea of the creative and imaginative way people wrote about hell.

Most Christians now (at least in the States) have a perception of hell that is quite different from the one in the Bible.

If you get really, really curious, I found this on Amazon and it has great reviews:
Amazon.com: The Formation of Hell: Death and Retribution in the Ancient and Early Christian Worlds: Alan E. Bernstein: Books

Amazon.com: The History of Hell: Alice K. Turner, Donadio & Olson: Books

 

[citizenzen]

we can keep this thread on track please.

in other words no "new age", "unity" or "zen" proselytizing please, this is the Abrahamic section

pros·e·ly·tize
Pronunciation:
\ˈprä-s(ə-)lə-ˌtīz\
Function:
verb
Inflected Form(s):
pros·e·ly·tized; pros·e·ly·tiz·ing
Date:
1679
intransitive verb
1 : to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2 : to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause​

Can you provide the example of this? Or are you just warning people in case they got any wise ideas?

Do you think Tao was trying to convert you into an ACDC groupie?

 

[Faithfulservant]

In terms of Abrahamic faiths what is Hell like, and what is the scriptural basis for it ?

In the OT you see Sheol (hebrew) which is a place of the dead and its used for both the righteous and the wicked.

Psalm 16:9-11 says, "Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand." Daniel 12:2 speaks of the wicked: "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Hades (greek) is used in the New Testament and is like the OT word Sheol. Hades refers to the underworld - "the state between death and the resurrection."

Matthew 16:18 says, "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

Gehenna is a place where dead bodies were thrown into this valley and burned. The name of this valley became a term used for a place for lost souls. Gehenna is translated as hell.

descriptions to hell in the NT are like
unquenchable fire
black darkness
furnace of fire
fire and brimstone
the smoke of their torment
the lake of fire which burns with brimstone
where their worm does not die
the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

hell was created for satan and his minions.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS (Matthew 25:41)

2 Peter 2:3By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber. 4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly

now theres differing theories if hell is now or after judgemrnt.. regardless I wouldnt want to go there.

this site has a good explanation of why God would allow hell in the first place I could never explain it as well.. but I concur totally.

Ex-Atheist.com. Christian Apologetics, Logic and Debate!


edit: oops forgot to add that I am speaking as a bible believing Christian that believes the bible is the God-breathed inerrant Word of God. Not for anyone else

 

[citizenzen]

edit: oops forgot to add that I am speaking as a bible believing Christian that believes the bible is the God-breathed inerrant Word of God. Not for anyone else

It's okay FS. I think we understand where you're coming from.

Isn't this all we ever do: speak for ourselves? Is anybody here the official spokesperson for a religion, sect or social group? No? I didn't think so.

I think it's safe to say that any post is solely the opinion of the person posting and does not represent the views of anybody else. Although, we could include a slug of mouse type at the bottom of each post as a disclaimer... just to keep the lawyers from coming after us.



This post was solely the personal opinion of Citizenzen and is not intended to represent the views of any other being living, dead, or otherwise. Similarities to opinions held by any other person is purely coincidental and should not be construed as agreement or affiliation with Citizenzen or the religion that he practices.

 

[Faithfulservant]

It's okay FS. I think we understand where you're coming from.

Isn't this all we ever do: speak for ourselves? Is anybody here the official spokesperson for a religion, sect or social group? No? I didn't think so.

I think it's safe to say that any post is solely the opinion of the person posting and does not represent the views of anybody else. Although, we could include a slug of mouse type at the bottom of each post as a disclaimer... just to keep the lawyers from coming after us.



This post was solely the personal opinion of Citizenzen and is not intended to represent the views of any other being living, dead, or otherwise. Similarities to opinions held by any other person is purely coincidental and should not be construed as agreement or affiliation with Citizenzen or the religion that he practices.

oh no... seriously.. I used to post as just a "Christian" and I had every tom dick and harry and their Misses claiming that same title jump my s**t..like I was speaking for ALL that claim the name... so now I make sure everyone knows which flavor Im speaking from. I know its probably annoying but whats so incredibly satisfying is that its annoying at least one of the tom dicks and harry's misses. rofl

awesome post though... have to rep you

 

[GlorytoGod]

In the OT you see Sheol (hebrew) which is a place of the dead and its used for both the righteous and the wicked.

Psalm 16:9-11 says, "Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand." Daniel 12:2 speaks of the wicked: "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Hades (greek) is used in the New Testament and is like the OT word Sheol. Hades refers to the underworld - "the state between death and the resurrection."

Matthew 16:18 says, "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

Gehenna is a place where dead bodies were thrown into this valley and burned. The name of this valley became a term used for a place for lost souls. Gehenna is translated as hell.

descriptions to hell in the NT are like
unquenchable fire
black darkness
furnace of fire
fire and brimstone
the smoke of their torment
the lake of fire which burns with brimstone
where their worm does not die
the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

hell was created for satan and his minions.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS (Matthew 25:41)

2 Peter 2:3By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber. 4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly

now theres differing theories if hell is now or after judgemrnt.. regardless I wouldnt want to go there.

this site has a good explanation of why God would allow hell in the first place I could never explain it as well.. but I concur totally.

Ex-Atheist.com. Christian Apologetics, Logic and Debate!


edit: oops forgot to add that I am speaking as a bible believing Christian that believes the bible is the God-breathed inerrant Word of God. Not for anyone else

very informative Faithfulservant you deserve a Gold Star for that one

 

[Dondi]

this site has a good explanation of why God would allow hell in the first place I could never explain it as well.. but I concur totally.

Ex-Atheist.com. Christian Apologetics, Logic and Debate!

God does not create defective men with a sinful nature.
The presence of free will establishes a human nature that can alternate between choosing God’s will and rejecting God’s will. When a free will agent uses his free will to go against God's will, it is not evidence of an error on the part of God, but evidence that God has successfully created a free will agent.

So basically we can do away with the idea of original sin or sinful nature. Free will implies we have the ability to choose between right and wrong, according to how our conscience dictates. But what if our conscience is flawed in the first place (perhaps due to erroneous teachings or a bad childhood, etc)?

At times, free will agents are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. At times, free will agents become faced with moral dilemma's and the answer is not clear to them. Therefore probability, not God, dictates that few individuals will always choose God’s will, just as very few will never choose God’s will.

The lessor of two evils is still evil. I would think that would still be out of the will of God. And, incidently, Christians do not always choose God's will. We sin like everybody else.

God reveals Himself subjectively, rather than objectively. This way, each will believe what they will, instead of having to acknowledge an undeniable objective reality. If we knew with 100% certainty that the Biblical God existed, there is not one among us, including the already faithful, who would not act differently.

This makes no sense to me. Does God reveal Himself subjectively to everyone? Why is it bad to acknowledge God through objective reality, particularly when one's eternal fate is on the line?

I've spoken to several athiests who claim that they would be willing to believe in God is only they had definitive proof that He existed. Who wouldn't act differently if presented with such evidence? Then again, if we are to believe the OT accounts, the people of Israel were quick to turn to the golden calf after being delivered miraculously from Egypt. So go figure.

A parent would not think it right to destroy his child's work of art; there is no reason to believe that a god would think it right to destroy his creation's work of art.

This speaks of annhiliation, but isn't the alternative the same thing?

For this reason, God sent Adam out of the garden in order for Adam to learn the things of the spirit that could not be learned in paradise.

With no room for error?

Traits such as jealousy, conceit, self-righteousness, pessimism, and hatred, which are all bearable in a mortal existence, will result in all consuming bitterness and burning misery in an endless existence. There is no need for Hell to contain black hooded sadists. Our own minds will become effective instruments of torture.

This is more in line to what I believe Hell will be like...without Divine intervention. Except that I hope that such misery is remedial, with a chance of reprieve, instead destined to end up an eternal flame.

Our sin may cause others to sin and to become closed off to God for eternity. Our sin, therefore, contributes to the eternal misery of others; thus, our own eternal suffering is justified.

And this is where I have to disagree. We can't 'cause' people to sin. We can create situations whereby we can 'tempt' them. But are those who have never been able to find God accountable? The advantage the Israelites had is that they were given the Law. Someone born into a situation where they had little or no moral upbringing , or born in the 'wrong' religion for that matter, never had a chance to know the proper right from wrong, except perhaps through their distorted conscience. Are they only responsible for what they DO know?

Men are given the opportunity to overcome their sinful rebellion by living in a world of their own making, whereby they can see the daily consequences of their sin and hopefully realize the need for change.

A world of their own making? Or are they a product of their environment? People born late have a disadvantage, seeing that the world is becoming more and more corrupt. Were they responsible for how the world is coming in?

Not all men are given the same opportunity.

This isn't fair, but living in an environment that is not paradise cannot be fair. How then can judgment be fair? Those who have had the slightest opportunity to accept Christ will be compared to those who have had ample opportunity. If but one amongst those who has had the slightest opportunity finds his way through the narrow gate and acknowledges Christ as his Saviour, those who have had equal, or greater, opportunity will be without excuse, should they reject Christ. Thus, in a world where billions and billions of humans experience life and death, each will be compared with thousands of others who are in similar circumstances.
For example, a man who turns against God, because his son was killed, will be judged by the same standard as a man who retains his faith in God, even though his son and daughter were both killed.
The margin for error and excuse diminishes with every person who is born.

Or, "Those who have had no opportunity to accept Christ will be compared to those who have had ample opportunity."

This really doesn't make sense. Since when are we judged in comparison to others? Any why does the population of the world have any bearing to our individual judgement? And if man doesn't have the same opportunity, how can God judge fairly?

The only way that man can become totally holy would be to use his free will to sign away his free will agency over to God.

Christians pray that they will be more like Christ; they want to think and act as Jesus would. In heaven, their prayers are answered. They don't view the loss of their free will as a loss.

Even Christians aren't totally holy, so where does that leave us? If the purpose of free will is that we make the right choices, then what is the point of taking that free will away when we get to heaven? By this logic, we can be saved merely by asking God to take away our free will. But then how will that enable us to remain in the image of God? Isn't that what make us unique in all creation?

The Christian God does permit the existence of Hell, but there is nothing inherently unloving about Hell. Hell is a neutral separation. Consider the existence of hospitals; people don't go to hospitals to get sick, they go to hospitals because they are already sick. Likewise, people don't go to Hell to get punished; they go to Hell because they are already in the process of causing their own misery.

Neutral separation? What???? There is nothing neutral about hell.

10) Therefore, Hell is the inevitable result of man’s unwillingness to part from his sin through surrender of his free-will agency.

11)Therefore, God could not have created free-will agents without the prospect of Hell.

12) Therefore, love, mercy, generosity, and goodness could not have been created without the prospect of Hell.

I should think that in all things considered, living in this world with such a short lifespan comparitively speaking, that any judgement will take into consideration the circumstances upon which we were thrust into this world. God knows we are dust. He knows sinners and saints (reformed sinners?) are but dust. And this world is a pretty dank place, with all the moral decay surrounding us, to live in, in light of the bliss of eternal life. For many people on this planet, this is a hell. And because we do not know the full story, we see through a glass darkly, whatever veil there is to the reality of God is hidden to the majority of people still alive. Whether you are an athiest or a believer, the prospect of death, as far a the natural process of death is concerned, is a bleak one. And even then, believer really know know for sure what is on the other side. It's all a mystery, when you get right down to it.

Maybe some of us do deserve hell. But it is my feeling that hell is going to be a lot less populated than we are led to believe, purely for the fact that we live behind that veil. For those who have already decided for God, decided He is real and have that hope of heaven, I suppose that small mustard seed of faith might just enable them to enter in. But I can't help to think that for God to be righteous about this whole affair that He will not make any rash decisions until that Great Mystery is exposed. Presented with all the facts, about His existance and what He expects of us, only then can those who were hindered by the veil can make a proper choice for God. I think God is at least merciful in that regard.

And if Hell is to have any value at all, it would have to be remedial in form. Unless the person just plainly decides to reject God all together, after learning all the facts.

 

[path_of_one]

Dondi, I second your line of thinking and questioning.

First, as I understand it from Judaic sources, hell was considered to be remedial, and with this I would concur. An eternal hell makes no sense with a loving God, as anything eternal must be logically punitive rather than remedial.

Second, the article makes it sound like people are graded according to some bell curve. I don't think that is Biblical. I think God knows every person's heart and can judge him or her justly and mercifully based solely on his or her own circumstance and response. The author presumes that two people in similar circumstances can be judged against one another, but anyone with a passing knowledge of the human psyche would know that is an incorrect assumption. People differ in their inherent capacity for resilience, intelligence, openness to new things, and so on. This can be studied through personality and intelligence tests. On top of these natural variations on the human cognitive condition, some people have mental illnesses. A sociopath cannot develop empathy and compassion for others, and so how can one hold him/her responsible for this inability? To a lesser extent, all people have their own unique set of gifts and limitations. One man whose child dies may inherently be more resilient than another, and therefore not face the same challenge to his faith the other man faces. Simply looking at the events belies the real complexity that goes into human thought and action. I believe God understands us completely, and so His judgement is perfect and has nothing whatsoever to do with comparing us to other people. People's judgement of others is faulty in part because we compare ourselves to others. I think the Christian path is precisely the opposite of this- that we stop comparing ourselves to others and look only to the standard of Jesus Christ. In this, we all fall short, but we have faith in God's perfect justice and mercy to properly deal with all people.

In my mind, I do not have to imagine how God does this. I simply am called to have faith that God is perfect and I am to trust Him. The author, in my opinion, goes off on an imaginative trajectory of presuming how God judges others. And this, in my opinion, is just not Biblical and it isn't a good idea. Faith is in our choice to follow Christ and worship God, without knowing how it all works. Faith, to be faith, requires doubt and a lack of full knowledge. Why try to fill in that gap?

 

[wil]

And if Hell is to have any value at all, it would have to be remedial in form. Unless the person just plainly decides to reject God all together, after learning all the facts.

hhmmmm interesting contemplation...

After learning all the facts.

Imagine none of our beliefs or religions is correct...but there is an afterlife...I wonder what will occur of our Christian beliefs...after we learn all the facts.

Ok, done with that contemplation....if all the facts are as someone assumes them...how could one reject G!d then? (ie at the pearly gates...oops, crap..yup I believe in You now!!) Which lends me to forgiveness and my opinion that eventually we all end up in heaven...no matter how many lives it takes.

Hence this is hell for some, heaven for others...hell for those that just can't learn it is heaven.

peace,

wil

 

[Dondi]

hhmmmm interesting contemplation...

After learning all the facts.

Imagine none of our beliefs or religions is correct...but there is an afterlife...I wonder what will occur of our Christian beliefs...after we learn all the facts.

Ok, done with that contemplation....if all the facts are as someone assumes them...how could one reject G!d then? (ie at the pearly gates...oops, crap..yup I believe in You now!!) Which lends me to forgiveness and my opinion that eventually we all end up in heaven...no matter how many lives it takes.

Hence this is hell for some, heaven for others...hell for those that just can't learn it is heaven.

peace,

wil

Could very well be. But as I pointed out, mere belief in God does not constitute adherance (i.e. golden calf). If the athiest is wrong, for example, is the 'fact' that there is a God after all going to change his ways? Maybe. Or maybe there would be resentment to God in not making Himself clearly known, or maybe he didn't see God doing a too great a job in running the world, or maybe he simply chooses his own way regardless. Free will has many avenues.

 

[path_of_one]

I don't think belief is sufficient. In the Bible, Satan knows God exists, but it isn't that belief or knowledge that redeems.

When I looked it up, I found that the literal translation of John 3:16 is not the "whosoever believeth" translation.

From Wiki:

The verse in the original Greek is as follows (associated Strong's Number in superscript):
Οὕτως3779 γὰρ1063 ἠγάπησεν25 ὁ3588 Θεὸς2316 τὸν3588 κόσμον2889, ὥστε5620 τὸν3588 Υἱὸν[4] 5207 τὸν3588 μονογενῆ3439 ἔδωκεν1325, ἵνα2443 πᾶς3956 ὁ3588 πιστεύων4100 εἰς1519 Αὐτὸν846 μὴ3361 ἀπόληται622 ἀλλ᾽235 ἔχῃ2192 ζωὴν2222 αἰώνιον166 This could be translated literally as:
For in this way God loved the world: that he gave the unique son, so that all the ones trusting in him would not perish, but have eternal life.

That makes a lot more sense to me. Trusting in Christ changes one's life. Simply believing in something does not. Trust is what faith is about, and what prompts one to be transformed, redeemed, refined.

 

[shawn]

If it works for you, then have fun,
But the path of Jesus is not the only one.
If you think so, you have been blinded by the Son.
How do you like that? A rhyming pun.