The Virgin Mary
- Thread starter TealLeaf
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So I take it that there is no denomination of Christianity that doesn't believe that Christ was born of a virgin?
I'm surprised. You would think that with all the reform movements in Christianity at least one would have been rational enough to shed that bit of superstition.
It's unfortunate also because now that the Catholic and Anglican churches amongst others have accepted the theory of evolution Christ's supposed virgin birth is the only thing that would keep me from becoming a Christian.
I'm surprised. You would think that with all the reform movements in Christianity at least one would have been rational enough to shed that bit of superstition.
It's unfortunate also because now that the Catholic and Anglican churches amongst others have accepted the theory of evolution Christ's supposed virgin birth is the only thing that would keep me from becoming a Christian.
No, I think there are many reasons you would discover why you couldn't be a Christian. The basic one being that God does not conform to your philosophy.
Thomas
S
soleil10
Guest
If you really want to know why Jesus was not born from a virgin, please read the Virigin and the Priest by Mark Gibbs.
It explains clearly who Jesus' father was showing proof after proof.
Another thread I've missed.
Namaste Thomas, always wonderful to see a loving response.
However it is my understanding that the word that is translated in English to virgin, was word that meant young girl, or maiden or unmarried depending on who you ask.
But virgin was required because if you are going to create a mysterious new cult one of the things you gotta have is a good start, and all the religions around had things like virgin births, miracles, resurections, so your hero must as well.
As a nondenominational denomination Unity doesn't teach you what to think, they just encourage you to do so. So if virgin birth is critical to your understanding, its ok with us, if it isn't we welcome you as well.
Lastly, I don't believe G!d 'conforms' to anyones beliefs. G!d is.
Namaste Thomas, always wonderful to see a loving response.
However it is my understanding that the word that is translated in English to virgin, was word that meant young girl, or maiden or unmarried depending on who you ask.
But virgin was required because if you are going to create a mysterious new cult one of the things you gotta have is a good start, and all the religions around had things like virgin births, miracles, resurections, so your hero must as well.
As a nondenominational denomination Unity doesn't teach you what to think, they just encourage you to do so. So if virgin birth is critical to your understanding, its ok with us, if it isn't we welcome you as well.
Lastly, I don't believe G!d 'conforms' to anyones beliefs. G!d is.
shawn
Well-Known Member
It was common in those times to say that "oh, a god had his way with me, I am still a virgin for no man hath touched me",
As the cuckolded man would tend to slay the offending parties or the child.
Different era....different forms of justice.
We see it as barbaric, but it was just another day back then.
Plus, as wil indicated, one needs mysterious symbology to start a new cult.
And what better than a virgin birth.
It works for both the literalists and as allegory.
As the cuckolded man would tend to slay the offending parties or the child.
Different era....different forms of justice.
We see it as barbaric, but it was just another day back then.
Plus, as wil indicated, one needs mysterious symbology to start a new cult.
And what better than a virgin birth.
It works for both the literalists and as allegory.
nativeastral
fluffy future
the Ebionites and perhaps the Phillipino Ingelsia n Kristos
Actually I was merely reflecting the attitude implicit in the post ... "I don't believe it, therefore it must be irrational superstition!' To which I replied that the VB would be not the least of one's problems with that approach.
That is certainly one argument, although it is not a definitive one on the matter, it's a view, rather than a fact ... more to the point, it's not the essential argument, either.
The Virgin Birth was a belief held by the community prior to written sources, the fact that Luke and Matthew derive their data from different traditions is evidence of that.
"The Enlightenment’s absolutization of the laws of Newtonian physics led to a denial of miracles and of human freedom, emphatic points of the New Testament message. Although Newton’s worldview has been relativised by physicists, many exegetes in the wake of Bultmann insist on a closed world of uninterrupted causal series. Anything beyond hackneyed everyday experience, reproducible at will to ‘scientific’ observers, tends to be treated as superstition, magic, or myth. Naturally the virgin birth, attested by Matthew and Luke, is branded a theologoumenon, the product of the early Church’s refection which invented stories to highlight Jesus’ significance."
Review of "Born of a Virgin"
OK. But really, one's choice is, do you accept Scripture, or do you reject it? Once one starts saying 'I but this this, but not that' then really what one is doing is editing the text according to one's own prejudice and presumption. A post-modern skepticism masks an implicit hypocrisy, I think, in these matters. Scripture becomes a self-serving document ... the last thing it was intended to be.
I don't understand. So Unity doesn't care what anyone believes, as long as you believe in something?
Theosophy works along the same lines, from what I've been told — opinion matters more than truth, when you boil it down.
But you cannot even say that without it being refuted by your prior statement, as by saying 'God is' you're stating a belief.
Thomas
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Dream
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Not that it matters but I am convinced Thomas is right. The virgin birth is an original Christian doctrine as is the trinity, though the way it is viewed or the underlying language might change over time. It is interesting to hear a seminarian talk about it. Really, almost nobody in my experience has ever talked about it so candidly. I think I might be dead. Somebody pinch me.
Last first, yes I'm stating my belief, and yes Unity has some principles.
- [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]
- There is only One Power and One Presence active in the universe and in my life, God, the Good, Omnipotent.
- Our essence is of God; therefore, we are inherently good. This God essence was fully expressed in Jesus, the Christ.
- We are co-creators with God, creating reality through thoughts held in mind.
- Through affirmative prayer and meditation, I connect with God and bring out the good in my life.
- Through thoughts, words and actions, we live in the truth we know.
And yes, we accept Catholics and Hindus and Blacks and Whites, and Baptists and JWs and Gays and Lesbians, Jews and Muslims...all are welcome to come and study with us, attend church, attend classes, and break bread.
Everyone rejects and accepts scripture...everyone makes some sort of excuse as to why it is ok for them to murder (it's not murder, its an execution of a criminal, we were at war)...or as to why they justify not loving your enemy or your neighbor...Everyone, a generalization yes...but it is few and far between (even amongst saints) that follow every jot and tittle without their reason for why their actions are differ.
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You are correct, I don't believe in the doctrine, we believe in Christ. But again you can't generalize, there are many Unity members and Preachers who do believe in the virgin birth, and we that don't don't have an issue with that.possibly the unity movement as they don't really believe in any Christian Doctrine
shawn
Well-Known Member
The church has been interpreting the scriptures in a self-serving fashion since their inception, according to their own prejudice and presumption.
So I find this rather humorous.
Considering that a woman can have a child (female identical to her in DNA), with spontaneous conception and, gestation, that part of the virgin birth is not all that surprising or mystifying. The "miracle" is that Mary gave birth to a boy...and we didn't realize the impossibility of that under normal circumstances, until the last 50 years...
So, I fail to see where you opine there is superstition involved. The question is, how did the xy factor get there, when it should have been xx?
greymare
Well-Known Member
it is possible to fall pregnant without having intercourse.
I didnt know anything about the spontanious conception thing, but i do know for a fact that falling pregnant is possible without having sex with a man. ( and im not talking ivf or anything medically invasive)
I didnt know anything about the spontanious conception thing, but i do know for a fact that falling pregnant is possible without having sex with a man. ( and im not talking ivf or anything medically invasive)
This is a personal opinion, unless you are collegiate in the ways of theology in general and a specific church body in particular? That would imply you know more about, oh say the inner workings of the Catholic Church politic, than others here on IO?The church has been interpreting the scriptures in a self-serving fashion since their inception, according to their own prejudice and presumption.
So I find this rather humorous.
Some how, I have my doubts. But in any event, I would welcome evidence to conclude your hypothosis on this matter. I'm always up for an eye opener.
shawn
Well-Known Member
I did study a fair bit of church history while in Bible college working on my bachelor of theology degree, but I find the notes to be long and tedious to replicate.
There are some places of interest which concur that I have found on the internet, but it would take some time to look them up again.
There are some places of interest which concur that I have found on the internet, but it would take some time to look them up again.
That is a non sequitur. I can zip off an opinion, or biblical stories as quick as my fingers can type...I certainly don't require reviewing notes, unless I am unfamiliar with the topic/subject.
But then, that might disrupt a good debate, don't you think?
Let's get Thomas in on this one...that would make for a lively run, eh?As a matter of expediency, why don't we consider "Shelley's" work on this very issue? That might narrow things down considerably...
shawn
Well-Known Member
I can pretty well imagine what he would have to say on the subject.
As for non sequitur, I think you better look at the definition again Non sequitur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As it seemed pretty logical , b following a, to me.
I attended the theology school over 20 yrs ago and haven't found christianity to be relevant to my life for the past 10 yrs, so am a bit rusty on some of my facts, although I still know the jist of them, the details have become a bit foggy, and truthfully I am not really all that concerned about such things anymore.
I am not trying to convince anyone to jump on my bandwagon, nor win any debates, as the score doesn't count in any way that matters in any case.
As for non sequitur, I think you better look at the definition again Non sequitur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As it seemed pretty logical , b following a, to me.
I attended the theology school over 20 yrs ago and haven't found christianity to be relevant to my life for the past 10 yrs, so am a bit rusty on some of my facts, although I still know the jist of them, the details have become a bit foggy, and truthfully I am not really all that concerned about such things anymore.
I am not trying to convince anyone to jump on my bandwagon, nor win any debates, as the score doesn't count in any way that matters in any case.
I don't care whether you find Christianity of any personal import to your life or not...that is your choice. What I do find ironic is your telling the rest of us that we are out of sorts, when it comes to our faith, because you have found no refuge in your search.
I also find your education to be lacking, but not for the education itself...can't learn if the mind isn't open...
Oh, and as an aside, Non Sequitur: "a reply that has no relevance to what preceded it"
shawn
Well-Known Member
So you are suggesting that because I don't believe such things as you do then I have a closed mind and missed the mark in my education, eh?
Well, think what you will, your comments are very opinionated (from what I have read), so what is this, the pot calling the kettle black?
Thanks for caring
I have found much in my search, it just isn't the refuge you seem to be defending.
Well, think what you will, your comments are very opinionated (from what I have read), so what is this, the pot calling the kettle black?
Thanks for caring
I have found much in my search, it just isn't the refuge you seem to be defending.